One More Relationship Ended Because Of Religion

[Open_Minded]

OK... I'm on a rant this morning.

 

Over these past months I've posted about the two young friends of my daughter's who have been caught up in literalist Christianity. If you're interested in the details, you can read the following thread: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=5689&st=0

 

Where to start with this rant...

 

My daughter and these two girls have been friends for years. One of the girls - the one who has asked me about my beliefs and borrowed books seems to be, slowly and painfully, releasing herself from the grip of literalism.

 

The other girl - however - seems to be sinking further into it.

 

Last night my daughter came home from a school function (she and her two friends were part of a musical production) in tears. The long and short of it, she has been informed that she is not a TRUE Christian and this girl does not want to socialize with her anymore.

 

After the musical production all the kids were getting ready to go to the local Perkins and it came out that this young woman would not go to Perkins if my daughter was in the group because my daughter is not a TRUE Christian. So, my daughter came home alone while her friends all went to Perkins - she didn't want to make a scene.

 

So... now this group of friends have been put in the position of having to "choose" between my daughter and this one girl who has gotten so caught up in literalism that she is convinced she can not continue to have a relationship with a girl she's been friends with throughout childhood.

 

I am angry and mad and sad for this child and for this group of friends who will now all have to make "choices".

 

I am sad for my daughter, watching her struggle. And I know that this is part of life in America today, and at some point she was going to have to deal with the accusation of not being a TRUE Christian. But, that doesn't stop me from being sad and pissed at the same time.

 

And that is my rant - thank you for giving me a place to release the anger. Because my daughter needs to see compassion from me right now.

[Checkmate]

Dear, O_M. So sorry to hear about your troubles. However, I MUST say, "Welcome to OUR world!" We NON-Christians are forced to deal with these "choices" everyday. Just ask SereneAspiration. (Or whatever she's calling herself these days. ) She's dealing with the exact same issue.

 

You present yet ONE MORE good reason for religion to go the way of the dinosaur. If it kills relationships, then it can't be healthy for humanity.

 

Okay. I'll stop now, as it sounds like I'm gloating rather than being sympathetic. Hope things get better for you and yours.

[Open_Minded]

Dear, O_M. So sorry to hear about your troubles. However, I MUST say, "Welcome to OUR world!" We NON-Christians are forced to deal with these "choices" everyday. Just ask SereneAspiration. (Or whatever she's calling herself these days. ) She's dealing with the exact same issue.

 

You present yet ONE MORE good reason for religion to go the way of the dinosaur. If it kills relationships, then it can't be healthy for humanity.

 

Okay. I'll stop now, as it sounds like I'm gloating rather than being sympathetic. Hope things get better for you and yours.

 

Mr. Grinch... please understand. I grew up in your world. I am the daughter of parents who left Christianity. I grew up being told I wasn't good enough - that I would fry in hell. That my parents would fry in hell. Why do you think I am so comfortable on this board? How many other Christians are as comfortable with all of you, as I am? My ability to be part of this eclectic mix of ex-Christians is because I am the product of ex-Christian parents. (Mother a Diest since my early teens. Father now Christian - but many years waivering between agnostic/atheist).

 

My children have also had to deal with it. They are the children of a mother who is known in the community for her involvement in interfaith/interspiritual activity. They've grown up watching me ridiculed. This situation does not surprise me. Not at all ... in fact I have been wondering when it would happen with this particular girl.

 

And, I know that I am not alone - reference the title "ONE MORE relationship ended because of religion". I am also aware of the pain Serene has been dealing with. We are two mothers who can relate these days.

 

But, none of that takes away from the pain I feel as a mother for my daughter. None of it.

[Pariah]

Wow, that sucks Open_Minded.

 

Now if your daughter tries to stand up for herself she'll probably be seen as persecuting the "True Believers".

 

But then, how many in your daughter's group really meet the standard of "True Christian"?

[Lycorth]

My condolences, O_M - whenever religion gets in the way of basic human insitutions, you know you're dealing with the fallot of a cult. When will Xians learn that their relationship-destroying, joy-squashing, sorrow-bringing superstition is nothing more than a cult, in the same demented league as Jim Jones or David Koresh?

 

Xianity helped ruin a relationship of mine, and though it turned out for the better, still, I didn't deserve to be hurt because of the fearmongering inspired by an out of date desert cult. I really feel for people who have had their lives hurt or the lives of their loved ones hurt because of Xianity. It's just one of the many reasons I loathe it so.

[BigToe]

I am sorry you are having to see your daughter go through this. When I was little, I went to a private school, but no one was so caught up in any religious beliefs as to not be friends with someone over it. Having not experienced that at an early age, it still doesn't occur to me to not be friends with someone for their beliefs or for they to not be friends with me for mine. That path seems pretty shallow and unhappy to me.

 

One thing I was taught at a young age is that if someone doesn't want to be my friend it is their loss and not mine. If it is over a shallow reason such as not believing the right thing or the color of my hair or whatever- then they aren't the quality of person I want to surround myself with anyway. At 15/16, your daughter and her friends are really starting to figure out the quality of person they are and who to surround themselves with. Be supportive of your daughter, let her know she is a good person, a quality person. Let her know she has done nothing wrong. If she has a healthy self worth and confidence, she'll be fine. If she is like a lot of teen girls and lacking in that department, do what you can to help her see her beauty and strength. Don't bad mouth the other girl, but let your daughter know that she's better off for not having a friend who isn't a true friend.

[Fweethawt]

Sounds to me like they've been hittin' the ol'bottle of Luke 14:26 to me.

 

Which isn't a "bad" thing if you label yourself as a Christian™.

 

After all, them thar wurds wuz spoken from thuh mouth'a swayeet Jayzuss!

 

 

Spread The Word™!

[white_raven23]

O_M.......I feel very badly for your daughter, but I've got something to pass on to her (if you haven't told her something similar already).

 

I've never met anyone who "followed the crowd" who was in themself, truly happy or content. They might put up a smiley front, and say all the "right" things, but when you look into their eyes for a glimpse of their soul Palace, you see the paint is chipped, the wallpaper peeling, and the plants in the greenhouse are infested with aphids.

 

Shakespeare penned something deeply true when he wrote the words "To Thine Own Self, be True." Six words. But in those six words, you can have a sense of well being (because you are) or deep gangrenous guilt (because you aren't).

 

With that, I have to say I feel deepest sorrow for your daughter's former friend. She has devestated a friend, committed a social "murder", for the approval of a group. In time.....it WILL affect her.

[BlueGiant]

I have to echo white_raven's "First to thine own self be true, for then thou cans't be false to no other man." (right up there with "neither a borrower nor lender be.." IMHO). The bitter taste it leaves when you realize that you have been false with yourself and the doubt that follows, let's just say that I will pity your daughter's friend if her house of cards ever falls.

 

Though until then I think I will save my pity for those who deserve it.

 

I am sorry to hear that your daughter has found herself in that position, espeically with a longtime friend. It may pay to remind her about what was said about pharasees, And she should (if she isn't already) think about how much this friendship is worth to her. Something tells me that it means less to the other party, but still...

 

Hopefully her other friends will choose wisely, and if they don't, may your daughter have the strength and endurance to stand up for herself.

[Open_Minded]

but IMHO this is different because no one has wronged the other. That is why I believe you and I are so deeply pained for our daughters over this.

 

How right you are Serene. I did deal with this as a child and I've dealt with it my entire adult life. I've even had the "honor" of being run out of one church because I wasn't a TRUE Christian. And my children were all old enough to have memories of it. But, this is different. This is my child .. and well ... it hurts more when it is your child, and not you.

 

Now if your daughter tries to stand up for herself she'll probably be seen as persecuting the "True Believers".

 

But then, how many in your daughter's group really meet the standard of "True Christian"?

 

You hit the nail on the head Pariah. And that is exactly the way this is panning out. Just a bit of background. We live in a pretty liberal area - in addition our children are - well - our children, they reflect the values they grew up with. All three of them have friends in many different groups. For instance the daughter who is dealing with this situation also has a friend who is Jewish and multiple friends who are either Agnostic or Atheist. So... the good thing is her friendships are not limited to conservative Christians. In fact when these girls were younger - all of them were in girl scouts together. The two girls who have gotten caught up in literalism - were not always this way. It has caused stress on all of them. My daughter has managed to bridge the differences between her friends and maintain friendships with both the liberal teens and the literalist Christian teens. Well - until now - that is.

 

I am going to call the two girls getting caught up in literalism Q and F. Q is for the girl who questions what she is being taught. She'll ask me about books on my shelf or occasionally ask me questions. F is for the girl who now refuses to hang out with my daughter because my daughter is not a TRUE Christian. And F does not stand for what you are most likely thinking. F stands for Follower.

 

Anyway - there are other literalist Christians in this group of friends that Q, F and my daughter hang out in - but Q and F have been a part of my daughter's life for years. The others haven't - they are part of the group but not in my daughter's life daily. Well anyway now that F has drawn the line, Q has to make a decision. The others will probably side with F as she is the connecting figure between my daughter and the group. It is Q's response I was most worried about. I've had hope Q could shake literalism. She's been asking questions and reading. She still shows up at our house almost daily, F doesn't anymore. And just when I was starting to have hope that Q could walk away, F puts this situation in the mix.

 

So... when my daughter was in tears the other night I was also worried for Q and even worried for F. F really has swallowed some serious shit to sever a friendship she's had for years and put another friend (Q) in a corner. And Q, who had been slowly and painfully questioning was put in an awkward position as well.

 

The long and short of it is that my daughter didn't have to wait long for a response. After I went to bed that night (my husband was still up) other friends showed up at the house. They had heard through the grapevine. Our daughter talked with them for an hour or so, the two friends who showed up were her Jewish friend and an Atheist friend. She went to bed knowing that whatever happened she still had friends she could count on. But, Q was still in question.

 

Then yesterday Q showed up at the house and spent several hours here. She will still have to make a decision in the long term. This group of "christians" she's involved in, will not let her play the fence forever. Right now she feels torn between my daughter and F. I'd like to believe Q will be able to shake the crap she's being taught - and I even have legitimate hope because she has been questioning. And this situation is causing her to question even more. She's very upset with F right now. But who knows?

 

Spread The Word™!

 

How right you are Fwee.. to think all of these girls .... all of them, Agnostic, Atheist, my daughter, Q, F and others were ALL in girl scouts together as youngsters. Religion was NEVER an issue, NEVER until the death of the three teens we discussed in the Written on our Hearts (Spare the Rod) thread. The year those children died, the fundies really went into "Spread the Word" mode big time and sucked Q and F into it. And now, not only have the children in this class lost friends to suicide, car accident and a drowning - religion has been used to rip them apart when they should be finding comfort in each other. It really sucks big time.

 

My condolences, O_M - whenever religion gets in the way of basic human insitutions, you know you're dealing with the fallot of a cult.

 

Yes.. this is very cultish Varokhar. The fact that F thinks she can't make any major decisions in her life without consulting her pastor, concerns me deeply. Q has been fed the same line of shit, but she at least questions the validity of that thought process. She's still in our home - knowing who we are - even yesterday and last night. That says something to me and I hold out hope. But, I'm afraid for now that F has really been sucked into it.

 

One thing I was taught at a young age is that if someone doesn't want to be my friend it is their loss and not mine.

 

Thanks Big Toe, yes this is something we discussed with our daughter on Friday night. And in her heart she knows this. I think this would be less painful if the friendships didn't go back years and if this all wasn't happening on the heels of loosing 3 friends to death. I think the fact that F got mixed up in this cult because of these teens deaths just complicates the situation even more.

 

I've never met anyone who "followed the crowd" who was in themself, truly happy or content. They might put up a smiley front, and say all the "right" things, but when you look into their eyes for a glimpse of their soul Palace, you see the paint is chipped, the wallpaper peeling, and the plants in the greenhouse are infested with aphids.

 

Shakespeare penned something deeply true when he wrote the words "To Thine Own Self, be True." Six words. But in those six words, you can have a sense of well being (because you are) or deep gangrenous guilt (because you aren't).

 

With that, I have to say I feel deepest sorrow for your daughter's former friend. She has devestated a friend, committed a social "murder", for the approval of a group. In time.....it WILL affect her.

 

And that truly is a big worry of mine. I wish I could sit and talk with F, but well she has to want the discussion. And she truly is a follower at this point. For my daughter's sake I have been able to maintain a compassionate stance towards F, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't feel anger too. She's a smart girl and she has allowed fear to get in the way of intellect. A perfectly natural human response - we've all done it at one time or another. But, this is pretty extreme and it tells me how extreme her fears are as well.

 

Hopefully her other friends will choose wisely, and if they don't, may your daughter have the strength and endurance to stand up for herself.

 

Thanks BlueGiant ... for now it seems Q is choosing wisely. The others aren't such a big deal as they've not been as close to my daughter. Q truly is the one put in the middle - and not just between F and my daughter - but between F and her former friends from the girl scout group. She still trys to connect with the girls who are Jewish, Agnostic and Atheist - but things have been stressed. This situation is going to kick the bucket one way or the other. That is for sure.

 

I will say this, Q is trying, my daughter is trying, the other three girls (Jewish, Agnostic and Atheist) would also like to see some reconcilliation as well. They were all close friends at one time, until the fundies entered the mix. Who knows, one can only try.

 

I remember when these kids were young and I was a young and niave parent. How proud we were that this group of friends comprised such a variety of culture and religion. Q and F were from homes where the parents weren't really involved and we knew they were "at risk". But we thought they were "at risk" for drugs, alcohol, premature sexual activity etc... it never ocurred to the the adults involved that they were "at risk" for cultism. We thought we were raising our girls differently than our generation had been raised. We live in a liberal area, the girls used to learn about other traditions in girl scouts. If someone had told me that we'd be dealing with this situation during their teen years I'd not have believed it, not at all.

 

Thank you everyone for your support. It means a lot. Being able to dump and vent here allows me to be honestly compassionate and helpful to my daughter and her friends.

[Lautermilich]

As a former fundie in the Church of Christ, I can assure you that 'dissing' someone is a power trip that many individial or a group of 'Christians' will do with delight in the power trip they have. It is also a message to the group that if you do not conform this will happen to you as well.

 

One local Church of Christ has dissed so many members that it was enough for them to start their own congrigation. The biggest problems have been not attending three times a week or how women dress on Wednesday night.

 

When I was leaving the fold there were attempts to keep me but at one point the word was given and people who I used to walk into thier homes without knocking would no longer have any contact with me. But rather than get upset as most do, I fully understood the why of it and quietly left.

[Open_Minded]

Like you I feel sorrow for not just mine, but even moreso for her friend because she'll be raised with the same attitude as her parents which is scary. It's probably best this happened now because unlike your daughter, mine is still in childhood not teenhood and her friendship is much more deeply involved than my daughters and her friend.

 

Yes... although many years ago, when my eldest daughter was about 9-10 years ago a similar thing happened with a dear friend of hers. The girls parents (Jehovah's wittness) severed the relationship. But you know what, I ran into the girl several months ago. She's now 21. We just chatted politely, but as we were ending the conversation she stopped me and asked me a couple quick questions about the bible and the creation story and if I thought the creation story was "true". I didn't push - because we aren't close enough for that - but I could tell that she was questioning what she's been raised with. There is always hope.

 

I'm so sure that your daughter is going to be okay though, thank GOODNESS she has you for a mom and some other good friends who will not abandon her. Better 1-3 good solid friends than a pack that FOLLOW the leader instead of their hearts.

 

Yes... I'm really happy and grateful for her other friends. Especially her friend who is Jewish. That girl has a real sense of humor and can really bring the house down with sarcasim. This weekend there was a good deal of that going around. In the end, the girls always respond to the situation with measure and compassion for what their friends are being sucked into. But, there is a time for laughter too, and this girl really has a rye, quiet sense of humor mixed with sarcasm. My son was at home too, he also has a sense of humor. Last night we had a lot of good laughs (see the bumper sticker thread). And, this morning my daughter went to school with a more objective out-look.

 

Thanks everyone for your support.

 

And Serene, I'm happy to hear your daughter is doing better as well. It's all part of growing up in our culture, I suppose. Although I do dream of a day when it does not matter - for the sake of humanity I hope our world will see this day.