Why Doesn't Satan Just "out" God?

[mwc]

I was thinking the other day about how god supposedly likes to work behind the scenes (in the shadows and all). This is supposed to be some really great of way doing things and guarantees that we love him for him. So, being such a rebel jerk, why doesn't Satan just pop up larger than life and "out" the whole thing. "Hi. I'm Satan and yes I am real. Now let me clue you all in to the real story. I'll also give you lots of things and make your life better while god just hides from you." Once the inititial fear passes the free stuff and better world would go along way to turn people to his side and since everything is now out in the open god cannot be certain that anyone loves him for him anymore (you'd think he would being all knowledgable but since he can't tell you love him for him now I doubt he'll do much better when outed). Revelation hints at this but that's not really so much Satan but who knows what that is attributed to him. Also, if he shows and simply is a benevolent leader (for more than a few years...or not a leader at all but simply a very kind and giving third party asking nothing in return) he is assusered many followers which avoids that whole Revelations mess. So why does Satan also work in such a covert fashion when he could just "out" god and really screw the whole plan?

 

mwc

 

P.S. I know none of these guys are real so there's no real need to clue me into that.

[Lycorth]

Exactly - I've always wondered that, myself. I have yet to engage any Xians in much real-time debate about religion, but when I do, that is a point I have always wanted to bring up. It ties in with another question I and others have: why does Gawd not just cut the crap and do away with the devil?

 

All this "working in the shadows" is just another tactic of the stubborn cultist to explain away why their all-powerful gods do not just show up before all the world and give us real reasons to believe in them. If Xianity posited that its god and other cast of characters were not all-powerful and were not able to do much more than influence the human spirit, then I'd let them slide. But they offer an all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful, all-good ubergod who can do anything and make this world a paradise if it wanted to, but merely chooses not to, chooses to let evil beings torment humanity and chooses to let things get fooked up - and then blame humanity when they are victimized by these evil beings.

 

Just another fine example of the absolute absurdity of the concept of an all-powerful, all-good god.

[Artur]

*

[Amanda]

I was thinking the other day about how god supposedly likes to work behind the scenes (in the shadows and all). This is supposed to be some really great of way doing things and guarantees that we love him for him. So, being such a rebel jerk, why doesn't Satan just pop up larger than life and "out" the whole thing. "Hi. I'm Satan and yes I am real. Now let me clue you all in to the real story. I'll also give you lots of things and make your life better while god just hides from you."

Hi MWC! As I understand these metaphorical teachings, Satan was created by God and for God. Perhaps God is what is represented by our altruistic nature, Satan is only an adversary to our disrespectful nature. Hell, to me, only represents the natural repercussions of inappropriate behaviors, therefore... the war between heaven and hell exists within our mind. Example, if one lies all the time, no one will believe them... creating a hell for that person until they change to telling the truth all the time.

P.S. I know none of these guys are real so there's no real need to clue me into that.

I agree they're not "real", simply metaphorical analogies to explain forces around us, IMHO, FWIW.

[Nihil]

I was thinking the other day about how god supposedly likes to work behind the scenes (in the shadows and all). This is supposed to be some really great of way doing things and guarantees that we love him for him. So, being such a rebel jerk, why doesn't Satan just pop up larger than life and "out" the whole thing. "Hi. I'm Satan and yes I am real. Now let me clue you all in to the real story. I'll also give you lots of things and make your life better while god just hides from you."

Hi MWC! As I understand these metaphorical teachings, Satan was created by God and for God. Perhaps God is what is represented by our altruistic nature, Satan is only an adversary to our disrespectful nature. Hell, to me, only represents the natural repercussions of inappropriate behaviors, therefore... the war between heaven and hell exists within our mind. Example, if one lies all the time, no one will believe them... creating a hell for that person until they change to telling the truth all the time.

P.S. I know none of these guys are real so there's no real need to clue me into that.

I agree they're not "real", simply metaphorical analogies to explain forces around us, IMHO, FWIW.

 

As an aside, I'd like to point out that always telling the truth can be almost as hellish as almost lying all the time. Especially if you have nagging relatives like mine.

[Taphophilia]

 

As an aside, I'd like to point out that always telling the truth can be almost as hellish as almost lying all the time. Especially if you have nagging relatives like mine.

 

We should present this to Chris De Vidal.

 

What if you say a half truth but leave out the rest? "I really like you outfit" but not say (It's you I can't stand.) Is that the same as lying?

 

Screw being kind or polite, tell the truth no matter what or the baby Jesus will be so pissed off at you, he will burn you alive forever!

[mwc]

Exactly - I've always wondered that, myself. I have yet to engage any Xians in much real-time debate about religion, but when I do, that is a point I have always wanted to bring up. It ties in with another question I and others have: why does Gawd not just cut the crap and do away with the devil?

Been there just last night which is what prompted me to post here.

 

The answer? Pretty much the usual bits. Silence (they don't need to explain god), the dodge (god can do whatever he wants...he's god) and all the rest. It gets infuriating having to get strawmen and interpretations (from a literalist) and all.

 

Finally it came down to even though Satan is "bad" and can do all these things that he is still bound by the will of god. The opportunity to attack had come. To paraphrase a bit of the conversation:

 

Me: So Satan is really impotent and nothing to worry about?

FI (fundie idiot): Well, yes.

Me: Then why mention or worry about him at all?

FI: Well, he can still do things and ...

Me: But only things god allows him to do. God condones these actions then.

FI: Well, no free will...

 

By now I knew where this was going. To argue free will and try to exempt god from the pickle he just got put in. As you basically said f everything is within the bounds of gods will then free will is an illusion (and god is a turd since the arguement proves he can "fix" everything...if he won't impose his will then Satan could do as he pleases and be a true threat to all including god). Poor FI quickly was overwhelmed a kept changing the topic faster than I could make my points. Of course I lost and simply have no grasp of scripture.

 

mwc

[mwc]

Excellent question for a thread, although I've always approached it from the side of 'why doesn't god just bloody SHOW HIMSELF!!'

The problem with this approach (and I've used it) is that it leaves control with god. Satan, supposedly being a true rebel and idiots like us have the ability to muck up god's plan (since he respects free will and on and on no matter this argument shits all over a consistent view of god and his abilities). So why wouldn't Satan just show up and tell us the supernatural is real and set himself up as ruler. The rules of the game indicate that if we don't worship god we are damned by default. There's no reason to think that since Satan can appear as an "angel of light" that he couldn't appear and be a really great guy. Someone you'd really like to know and nothing at all like the book describes which would cast doubt over the whole thing after people could see he was a good guy after all (the initial wait for the stuff in Revelation would have to pass so it would take a few years to see he's not trying to lead and the leaders, one of whom is the anti-christ didn't turn from a good guy into a bad guy half way through the tribulation like he should).

 

Gaining our trust, and not forcing us to worship him or anything but being what all people think god should be like, would really show that maybe he got the raw deal. People wouldn't worship him but they'd fall away from god too and so by default Satan wins billions of souls by being nice. He's supposed to be pure evil but con men can put up a front for years and years to do their crimes so I imagine that Satan, having stuck it out for several thousand years already without much success, could pull this off (even though xians treat him like a movie villain that can't hold off fro being "evil" for very long and exposes himself in some tirade). Satan knows the bible (or so I've had it drilled into my head) and as such the surest way to screw over god is to just not play the end game. If god can't force him to then god loses.

 

Why all the cloak and daggar garbage? Why risk people not getting thier hands on a bible or having an extremely loud, unintelligent preacher around to show them the light? If he is characterized by all these ubiquitous omni-whatevers (present, potent, etc.), just freakin' SHOW HIMSELF!!

 

Otherwise, it's all pretty much storytelling, pyramid schemes, and fertilizer.

I do have to agree with everyone though that this is the right thing for god to do. Sadly this plays like any number of kinds of stories where the rich (powerful, etc.) guy is tired of these women just using him for his stuff and not loving him for him. He then disguises himself so he can find a women that can love an "average" guy that just has a good personality. He leaves "clues" that he might be more but she's not sure. The misunderstanding and breakup followed by the return of the women to him. The revealing of his "true" self and she gets and great guy and a great life and they live happily ever after. Sounds like the same story including the extra scenes of all those old bitch girlfriends of him getting put into a giant blender while he watches and smiles.

 

So they admit that god is a petty, insecure, not all-knowing being that resorts to tricks to get his answers. It's all so very lame when you take off those jesus colored glasses.

 

mwc

[mwc]

Hi MWC! As I understand these metaphorical teachings, Satan was created by God and for God. Perhaps God is what is represented by our altruistic nature, Satan is only an adversary to our disrespectful nature. Hell, to me, only represents the natural repercussions of inappropriate behaviors, therefore... the war between heaven and hell exists within our mind. Example, if one lies all the time, no one will believe them... creating a hell for that person until they change to telling the truth all the time.

Hi to you too.

 

You see, I never know how to respond to you since your aren't what I'd call xian. However, your flavor of things tends to make a lot more sense than a "traditional" reading. When I was into all this awhile back you would have taken my nastiest attacks but now that I can look at many angles of the same story I tend to lean your direction. First off, with some exceptions, you and people who have your view really aren't jerks like those who proclaim to have god within them (of course god is pretty much a jerk so maybe they do?)...this throws me off my game.

 

However, with or without using the terms heaven and hell, I do agree. Inner turmoil is a bitch and wrapping your mind around things enough to work on true introspection is hard (especially when you're used to turning off your mind and just believing you are trash...end of story). Even as a xian I was more introspective that others. I asked odd questions (How do you know you are you? What happens to the you that is you when you die? Would you still be you if someone the you that is you is put into another body or would that then be you and you no longer exist as you but rather this new you that you percieve to have always been you but it's not? I see me as me and you see you as you, but to you it is reversed and so we both see ourselves as me and others as you so who is the real me and who is the real you? See? All sorts of non-xian like questions.). I always put this stuff out of my mind a reverted back to the party line though (I wrote it off as a side-effect of Tourette's since all sorts of things enter your mind at random...causing me a huge inner turmoil that god didn't seem interested in fixing and yet without god in my life that turmoil is vanishing).

 

I agree they're not "real", simply metaphorical analogies to explain forces around us, IMHO, FWIW.

I find this method of reading works best in the OT much more than the NT. The story of Sampson works very well this way (otherwise god loves a huge jerk and gives him things that he shouldn't get...seeing it as an analogy, or morality play overlaid on possible but embelished history, rather than factual history really "fixes" these ethical issues).

 

mwc

 

 

As an aside, I'd like to point out that always telling the truth can be almost as hellish as almost lying all the time. Especially if you have nagging relatives like mine.

The movie "Liar Liar" highlights this truth.

 

I agree with the ancient Greek philosophy of all things in moderation. Sometimes lies are needed (and I'm talking about non-malicious self-serving lies) and, I say usually, the truth is needed (but sometimes "softening" the truth to spare someone else feelings, unless they really need to know, is required). I try to mostly tell the truth, even if it's painful, but I'll tell a lie to protect someone close to me (although I usually out myself since my parents taught me to suck it up and face the music since like pulling a band-aid it's best to just do it and take the momentary sting then pick at it and prolong things...and as I get older I really could care less what others, beyond family and friends, think about me).

 

mwc

[Fweethawt]

This is such a silly thread.

 

Everybody knows that the bible tells us that nobody can gaze upon the Glorious Holy Presence of God™ and live.

 

So, the reason God doesn't show Himself, is because if He did, He'd end up killing everyone.

 

And since God is Good™, He wouldn't want to do something like that.

 

 

Case closed...

 

Next!

[mwc]

This is such a silly thread.

 

Everybody knows that the bible tells us that nobody can gaze upon the Glorious Holy Presence of God and live.

 

So, the reason God doesn't show Himself, is because if He did, He'd end up killing everyone.

 

And since God is Good, He wouldn't want to do something like that.

 

 

Case closed...

 

Next!

Yes, but Moses saw his Glorious ass and lived...so SHOW US YOUR HOLY (not holey ) ASS LORD!

 

mwc

[Fweethawt]

Yes, but Moses saw his Glorious ass and lived...

mwc

Yeah, but that's one of those "~~~allegorical~~~" parts of the bible.

[Amanda]

I agree they're not "real", simply metaphorical analogies to explain forces around us, IMHO, FWIW.

I find this method of reading works best in the OT much more than the NT. The story of Sampson works very well this way (otherwise god loves a huge jerk and gives him things that he shouldn't get...seeing it as an analogy, or morality play overlaid on possible but embelished history, rather than factual history really "fixes" these ethical issues).

 

Hey MWC, we agree! However, I recently discovered in research on this site that even the NT declares these OT stories as fables! This is found at Titus 1:14 found here. It seems to me these fables are probably embellished history, possibly to the extent as Santa Claus. Yet, I find the true story of St. Nicholas far more endearing.

 

Sometimes I have a hard time expressing my opinions on here now. I certainly have become more knowledgeable of Biblical insights since I've been here. Initially here, I had reservations that Noah's Ark could have possibly happened on a more localized area... all because of a documentary I saw once. However, once I was subjected to reason by these fine folks here.... I've changed my mind on that one! Yet, sometimes I think that expressing my opinion may confuse people and get them suspicious if fundamentalism is right. It's amazing how people were so dedicated to it, and how it had such a grip on their life! I was never disciplined enough to be a fundamentalist, and even though I think of it as almost a 'sickness'.... those I've encountered on this site who were fundys... are really nice people now, that seem to have a lot of substance and integrity. It would be disappointing for me to see them return to believing an evil spirit, Satan, flies around and may attack them or cast them into fire in another dimension! Sheesh, that's crazy!

[mwc]

Yes, but Moses saw his Glorious ass and lived...

mwc

Yeah, but that's one of those "~~~allegorical~~~" parts of the bible.

Ahhh...darn it! I really gotta update my decoder ring so I can avoid this problem in the future.

 

mwc

[mwc]

Hey MWC, we agree!

Ack, you're right! Something must be wrong with me.

 

It seems to me these fables are probably embellished history, possibly to the extent as Santa Claus. Yet, I find the true story of St. Nicholas far more endearing.

It's hard to tell from the context what the fables are exactly. Personally I would imagine he's referring more to an oral tradition but since the literacy rate among Jews, from what I've read, was relatively high it still wasn't great and an oral version of things would likely be the norm (which I'm sure would give rise to not quite right versions of the stories). I suppose he could be referring to the Talmud as well since it sort of expands on the Torah but isn't canon (but I would imagine that didn't stop people from using it as such). I'll have to see if there's anymore information on this (it would be nice to have the letter from Titus to Paul to see what he said) although I'm not going to hold my breath.

 

Also, I looked into old St. Nick awhile back and it seems he may not have existed at all (much like the evidence that supports a lack of a jesus). If you dig around you should be able to find the resources (I'd give them to you but my computer had a problem and I lost nearly all my bookmarks back to last July).

 

Initially here, I had reservations that Noah's Ark could have possibly happened on a more localized area... all because of a documentary I saw once. However, once I was subjected to reason by these fine folks here.... I've changed my mind on that one!

I don't have too much doubt that there was a very large flood that occured to create the Black Sea. The evidence is leaning heavily in that direction. If I were in the region at the time I could imagine how such a major event to those stuck in the flood area (that lived of course) could envision the entire world flooding and how the truth of the flood, combined with their superstitious world view could travel and contort into the myth of the Syrians (being close the flood area) and later travel/mutate some more and end up as Noah's story. All that said I'd be willing to bet no one built a boat or really even knew the earth dam between the Black Sea (then desert) and the Mediterranean was going to fail and send water rushing in (it may have rained or maybe it didn't but the water any rain would have been insignificant).

 

Yet, sometimes I think that expressing my opinion may confuse people and get them suspicious if fundamentalism is right. It's amazing how people were so dedicated to it, and how it had such a grip on their life! I was never disciplined enough to be a fundamentalist, and even though I think of it as almost a 'sickness'.... those I've encountered on this site who were fundys... are really nice people now, that seem to have a lot of substance and integrity. It would be disappointing for me to see them return to believing an evil spirit, Satan, flies around and may attack them or cast them into fire in another dimension! Sheesh, that's crazy!

I don't know if people are suspicious of you. I know I'm not. As I said in my other reply I simply don't know how to relate to you very well. Your type was considered quite misguided and almost a danger when I was xian. I was Lutheran and went to a Baptist school. They told me things and I didn't question it (like dinosaurs never existed but are a test of faith). Those people will lead me from god? Then I'll stay away from those people. See? It's simple. Now that I am out of the whole thing I am seeing just how much was left out in order to build these artificial barriers. The thing is if someone had called me a fundie I would have flat out denied it and been insulted. I had no idea that I was until I left it all and started reflecting back on it (the whole absolute truth, scripture twisting, cherry picking, KJV only types of things but I just thought this was how it was supposed to be...boy was I wrong). I thought that I was probably the most liberal xian in my family (since I had stopped going to church because of the hypocrites there) and now that I've spoken with them it turns out that I was the most fundamentalist (near the end I became quite liberal though). The point is that now that I can recognize all this whenever I call a fundie on it enough they'll wear the title as a badge of pride when I'm around (to bother me) and tell others that they're not a fundie. Nearly all fundie's I've known don't know that they're fundie so "correcting" them is damn near impossible since they honestly believe that they are "normal" xians and so there's nothing to address. The whole thing is, as you said, crazy.

 

mwc