Canadian Anti-discrimination Laws?

[Guest Ember]

So I walked into this Bible store. lots of Bibles. Greek, English, Aramic, they've got them all. Now I fgured, what would a better place to work than a Bible store be? I mean, I get to...

 

A. Study Religion/The Bible more.

 

B. Further my understanding of peoples point of views.

 

C. Earn money at a really lax looking job.

 

Now when I asked the Manager, telling her I was an Atheist she said something to the effect of "People come in here asking for spiritual guidance, so I'm not sure you'd be able to do that." She also mentioned offhand something about Jesus protecting the store from Satan, because our fight is not against something, but Satan, or Principalities. My memory is a bit fuzzy on that last bit.

 

I sincerely want a job there. I don't want to sit there and smile deviously as I prepare to start converting everyone to Atheism or anything. If someone asked a question, I could give them an answer without disrupting business by saying something like "Well I'm an Atheist, and I think the Bible is innaccurate, so I think that answers your question."

 

I did, however, make a good impression on the manager as far as I could tell. So is it legal in Canada to discriminate based upon Religion when hiring people for a job?

[pandora]

You're brave!

 

If Canada is anything like the US as far as anti-discrimination laws, they only apply if the employer gets government funds or is a government agency (ranging from the army to public schools). Privately owned businesses, unfortunately, are free to hire and fire as they please in most states.

[highvoltage]

If it wouldn't bother you to work there, then go for it.

 

You will also probably get surprised looks from the customers when/if you tell them you're an atheist.

[jrmarlin]

Ember, while I sympathize with you wanting to work there... Are you absolutely sure what you would be getting yourself into? The whole situation seems shaky at best and it doesn't sound like the woman you talked to would be all that hip to you being there... In her opinion, you would not have the wherewithall to answer questions. While we all know that's bullshit, fundies are fucked up that way...no matter what country you're in... they find their ways. Fundies with money is a dangerous thing. If a person can get fired for smoking a fucking cigarette, then an atheist in a bible store doesn't stand a chance in the xian hell.

 

Aren't there any metaphysical or occult bookstores you could apply at in your area? I am sure someone with your smarts would have no problem getting a gig there.

[Lycorth]

Heh, Ember - good for you, btw. I'd love to see you land that job. You'd probably get a lot out of it.

[Guest Ember]

I checked up on anti-discrimination laws, and they aren't allowed to discriminate upon religion. I really doubt I'd file a lawsuit, unless they went all Psalms 14 on me or tried to cast demons out of me, or were really offensive. If I did file a lawsuit, it would probably make Christianity Today and Worldnet Daily or something. Just imagine that.

 

"Atheists sue to work in Bible Store! Proof that Satan is attempting to corrupt God's word!"

 

I'm not looking to disrupt business or anything else either. I'll probably see if I can talk to the manager again this week.

[pandora]

From her perspective, she has a point... you may not be familiar with Christian books. You won't be able to answer their questions about which books to read for whatever they are looking for. It's in her best interest to hire someone who is in The Club and won't stir up shit. You could make the argument that you can learn whatever is needed for the job. I suggest you make a point of telling her that when you call. You should also tell her that you aren't there to challenge anyone and you want to learn more about the Bible... fool her into thinking you are ripe for conversion and watch the drama unfold!

 

It would be a lot of fun though... if you get the job, you could make a little informal sociology study, journal your experiences, etc... be sure to tell us all the juicy stories!! You could make a documentary on the Christian subculture! I would love to see someone do this for real... prolly has been done, does anyone know?

[Guest Ember]

You'll bet you guys would get to hear the stories. Wouldn't mind posting about what goes on in there either, should be pretty fun if it works out.

[Vigile]

You're brave!

 

If Canada is anything like the US as far as anti-discrimination laws, they only apply if the employer gets government funds or is a government agency (ranging from the army to public schools). Privately owned businesses, unfortunately, are free to hire and fire as they please in most states.

 

That's not exactly true. I think you are confusing employment law with laws surrounding religious displays and the like. An employer cannot, for example, refuse to hire a black man because he is black, no matter if the employer is government funded or not. I think the OP has a chance to fight this in court, but it will be an expensive battle. He/she might be able to get the Canadian equivelent to the ACLU to help out though. I suppose the book store owner would argue that they are due to an exemption due to the nature of their business, but it would be up to the court to decide if they will get one or not. Likewise, this battle might have already been waged and depending on the precident set a case may or may not be had here.

 

Any lawyers feel free to pipe in. My background only goes as far as a few business law classes and a bit of constitutional law. I'm a long ways from being an expert here.

[pandora]

Hmm... I don't think I'm confusing anything. I'm going off our law classes that I took in pharmacy school, although it was my second year of college... so things may have changed. Although most employers do apply the ADA and similar laws to their own businesses even if they are private, in Indiana, no private business is required to follow them. In Indiana, we have "at will" employment for private businesses, which means that you can be fired without just cause and you can be hired at the discretion of the employer... the idea is that if you cater to a white affluent area of town, the employer should not be forced to hire African Americans, because it could conceivably hurt business. As long as you can make a case as to why someone's sexual orientation, disability, race, or religion could hurt your business because of the clientele you serve or the nature of the job, you can do it.

 

Stupid and unfair? Yes, but it's how it works in Indiana. Labor laws in this state are lax and only enforced in government agencies or in businesses that receive a lot of governemnt funding, like hospitals. Most prudent employers follow these laws voluntarily (except for at will... I've been fired before under at will and I could not get unemployment because of it). It's mostly small businesses with niche markets that try to get away with stuff.

 

I could be wrong... feel free to correct me!

[Vigile]

Hmm... I don't think I'm confusing anything.

 

No mention of public funding being the precursor. The case you mention in Indiana is probably illegal. Federal law always overrides state law. State law can improve on Fed law, but cannot take away from Fed law.

 

http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/qanda.html

 

Federal Equal Employment Opportunity (EEO) Laws

I. What Are the Federal Laws Prohibiting Job Discrimination?

Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Title VII), which prohibits employment discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin;

the Equal Pay Act of 1963 (EPA), which protects men and women who perform substantially equal work in the same establishment from sex-based wage discrimination;

the Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967 (ADEA), which protects individuals who are 40 years of age or older;

Title I and Title V of the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (ADA), which prohibit employment discrimination against qualified individuals with disabilities in the private sector, and in state and local governments;

Sections 501 and 505 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, which prohibit discrimination against qualified individuals with disabilities who work in the federal government; and

the Civil Rights Act of 1991, which, among other things, provides monetary damages in cases of intentional employment discrimination.

 

 

II. What Discriminatory Practices Are Prohibited by These Laws?

Under Title VII, the ADA, and the ADEA, it is illegal to discriminate in any aspect of employment, including:

 

hiring and firing;

compensation, assignment, or classification of employees;

transfer, promotion, layoff, or recall;

job advertisements;

recruitment;

testing;

use of company facilities;

training and apprenticeship programs;

fringe benefits;

pay, retirement plans, and disability leave; or

other terms and conditions of employment.

Discriminatory practices under these laws also include:

 

harassment on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, national origin, disability, or age;

retaliation against an individual for filing a charge of discrimination, participating in an investigation, or opposing discriminatory practices;

employment decisions based on stereotypes or assumptions about the abilities, traits, or performance of individuals of a certain sex, race, age, religion, or ethnic group, or individuals with disabilities; and

denying employment opportunities to a person because of marriage to, or association with, an individual of a particular race, religion, national origin, or an individual with a disability. Title VII also prohibits discrimination because of participation in schools or places of worship associated with a particular racial, ethnic, or religious group.

 

 

Forgot about this:

 

IV. Which Employers and Other Entities Are Covered by These Laws?

Title VII and the ADA cover all private employers, state and local governments, and education institutions that employ 15 or more individuals. These laws also cover private and public employment agencies, labor organizations, and joint labor management committees controlling apprenticeship and training.

 

 

In other words, the book store, unless corporate, would likely not be subject to such laws (in the US anyway) because they most likely have less than 15 employees.

[The Sage Nabooru]

I can understand a religious store's right to not hire employees not belonging to their own religion. I mean, you can't sue a church for not bringing you on as Minister because you're an atheist.

[garrisonjj]

So I walked into this Bible store. lots of Bibles. Greek, English, Aramic, they've got them all. Now I fgured, what would a better place to work than a Bible store be? I mean, I get to...

 

A. Study Religion/The Bible more.

 

B. Further my understanding of peoples point of views.

 

C. Earn money at a really lax looking job.

 

Now when I asked the Manager, telling her I was an Atheist she said something to the effect of "People come in here asking for spiritual guidance, so I'm not sure you'd be able to do that." She also mentioned offhand something about Jesus protecting the store from Satan, because our fight is not against something, but Satan, or Principalities. My memory is a bit fuzzy on that last bit.

 

I sincerely want a job there. I don't want to sit there and smile deviously as I prepare to start converting everyone to Atheism or anything. If someone asked a question, I could give them an answer without disrupting business by saying something like "Well I'm an Atheist, and I think the Bible is innaccurate, so I think that answers your question."

 

I did, however, make a good impression on the manager as far as I could tell. So is it legal in Canada to discriminate based upon Religion when hiring people for a job?

 

 

 

I see no problem with you working there. You and most atheists have more knowledge of the babble than most xtians I know.You seem articulate and well read. If they hire you,,,fine. If not look elsewhere and you can privately tell them to FUCK OFF AND FUCK your religious books. You'd be like the pharmacist that sells cigarettes. You'll be fine,,,gary

[Guest Ember]

Well I went back and talked to them again. I looked up employment law in Canada and Alberta, and it goes something along the line of "you may not refuse to hire ro continue to hire someone" due to Religion, among other things. However, there ARE exceptions, for example, we have Catholic schools everywhere here. They may choose to only hire Roman Catholic Teachers. In addition, this applies to private businesses, but not religious organizations.

 

After talking with the manager again and explaining my position a bit further, she mentioned that while she didn't have any positions open at the time, I was not the best example, but definitely acceptable for the job. I signed up to volunteer there, so I'll see what becomes of it.

[Guest justinfr]

I did, however, make a good impression on the manager as far as I could tell. So is it legal in Canada to discriminate based upon Religion when hiring people for a job?

Hey! I'm from Manitoba. (And it's my first time posting!)

 

Laws may vary slightly from province to province but, in general, discrimination based on religion (or lack thereof) is illegal. Therefore, the employer asking about a prospective employee's religion is also illegal because, if you weren't hired, you could claim that you were discriminated against based on whatever you had answered when they had asked you about religion. (This is a little different, because it sounds as if you volunteered your atheism, right?)

 

The only time discrimination is allowed is if the employer can prove that being a Christian (or whatever faith) is a bona fide job requirement. In other words, if a part of the job description is indeed to provide spiritual advice to Christians, then they could make a case that being a Christian yourself is a job requirement. On the other hand, if your job is just to sell books, then they would be hard pressed to make a case why you needed to be of a certain faith in order to perform your job.

 

Concrete example: A Bible College here hired a woman to work as a clerk in their bookstore. During the application process, she passed herself off as a Protestant Christian (she was a Mormon). Once the school found out, they fired her and she sued for religious discrimination. The school argued that part of the job description of all staff at the college is to provide faith-based advice to students, promote a positive Christian example, and take part in Christian activities on campus. Therefore, if she wasn't a Christian, she couldn't fulfil her job properly. The court agreed and dismissed the suit, ruling that the college HAD discriminated, but that the discrimination was justified.

 

I applied at a Christian bookstore once when I was more--ahem--orthodox than I am now, and they asked, "Are you familiar with our selection of books?" In this way they were essentially asking if I was a Christian (I mean, who but a Christian would have read a bunch of Christian books, right?) but the question was phrased in a way that presented it as legitimate employment-related question. On the other hand, they might not have even cared what religion I was, as long as I was indeed familiar with their book selection!

 

In short, you probably would've had a much better chance of getting hired if you hadn't told them you were an atheist. If you hadn't mentioned your atheism, they probably wouldn't have said anything about people coming in for spiritual advice, or prayer warfare, etc. (They were probably trying to cover their asses, making it seem like being a Christian was a bona fide job requirement.) Next time, just don't mention religion at all, because they are walking on dangerous ground if they ask you themselves.

 

Cheers....

[All Gods Fail]

Good rule of thumb - never talk about your religious beliefs. Ever. If they ask, just say, "My personal faith is a private matter, and I don't like to discuss it."

 

Make them come out and say it - then you've got a case for discrimination.

[notasheep]

Hi!

I'm a janitor at a church. Got the job, then lost my faith. And they don't know yet. Not sure I'd have a job for long if they did. The pay sucks, but the job's easy, and the hours are flexible. But I have to listen to a lot of stuff that I used to believe that now sounds retarded, or worse.

So, if you really want this job, go for it. But be prepared to be annoyed a lot of the time, especially if they know you're an atheist. Because they'll probably be hostile and/or try to convert you.

[Amethyst]

Asking about things like religion is technically illegal in MN, but it doesn't mean they won't discriminate if you actually tell them you aren't Christian. They might just tell you that you didn't have the best qualifications or something if asked.

 

The way I figure it, religion should not matter in a place of business. But it does to way too many people.