Ziggy Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 If a Church was liberal enough run meetings or discussion groups aimed at people who were honestly searching for and wanting to discuss human spirituality without attributing it to a specific religion. Would you go back to Church? I ask because the last 6 months have been a whirlwind of change for me. I find I really want to discuss these things in a postive manner without having to accept the literalist / fundamantal view. And I want to be with people who also want to discuss these things in a positive way And I am finding more and more that there are people who want this also. Mostly people who have left the Church for the obvious reasons but who feel they have thrown the baby out with the bath water. I am not encouraging anyone to go back to Church! Just wondering if anyone would take this step if the right sort of meeting was there .... OM - I know your stance on this but contribute as you wish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 Eh... I doubt it, especially as I just plain don't feel like getting up early on Sunday to wobble into church. But a Xian institution providing an open forum for honest spiritual discussion - a few evenings of that could offer some great discussions, and a little entertainment at the least. I'd probably give it a shot or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 If a Church was liberal enough run meetings or discussion groups aimed at people who were honestly searching for and wanting to discuss human spirituality without attributing it to a specific religion. Would you go back to Church? I ask because the last 6 months have been a whirlwind of change for me. I find I really want to discuss these things in a postive manner without having to accept the literalist / fundamantal view. And I want to be with people who also want to discuss these things in a positive way And I am finding more and more that there are people who want this also. Mostly people who have left the Church for the obvious reasons but who feel they have thrown the baby out with the bath water. I am not encouraging anyone to go back to Church! Just wondering if anyone would take this step if the right sort of meeting was there .... OM - I know your stance on this but contribute as you wish I think that this is called the Universalist church in the US. I'm not sure if you have the equivelant in the UK. It's not really for me, but some seem to like it, including my sister in law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 "Hell no! I won't go!" I'm not wasting not one more second of my life in church even to go mock everyone. (Which I have considered doing. ) I put my neck in the noose ONCE, I ain't doing that shit again. Personally I don't understand why people believe they need CHURCH as a social hang-out. There are plenty of secular clubs and organizations to join if you're feeling socially isolated and in need of companionship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 eh.... maybe. It would depend on the church. Of course, Unitarians already do this to some extent, but if a mainline denomination such as a Methodist or Episcopal group decided to do this, I *might* go. I just do not trust the more conservative denominations to hold truly open discussions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponymic Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 I would never go to Church, because church by defenition to me means worshipping a religion. But I would be happy to gather with a bunch of people to further positive spiritual ideals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Gods Fail Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 God, no - it'll be a mighty cold day before I step foot in another $@#! church of my own volition! To me, biblegod and his pals are fairy tales. What's to discuss? Would you want to go to a Mormon church for a discussion group about human spirituality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skankboy Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 I don't think so. I think I would feel I'm enabling the reason the church is (ie the support of a delusional proposition). In the end, I would probably feel like a hypocrit. It's unfortunate (as I'm sure the people you are discussing are probably nice), but I'd feel like a hypocrit at this piont... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monsterfeets Posted April 6, 2006 Share Posted April 6, 2006 Yes. I've been considering going to a local Unitarian church. An ecclectic pagan group actually uses the church as their "church" as well. I thought that was pretty cool and I'd like to meet other people interested in spirituality who are open minded, locally. The church's website says that "The Bible is one of many sources of inspiration for us. We are also inspired by poetry, literature, other religious texts, and music. None of these are the final authority for us, but we learn from all of them. We believe that Truth is not absolute. It changes over time." So far, sounds good to me. But I'll have to check it out before I know if I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bdp Posted April 6, 2006 Share Posted April 6, 2006 I have actually thought about going back just for the social aspect; there are people I've known for over 20 years still attending churches around here, a few who were really close friends. But they have their lives and, even when I was a believer, church was always people showing up there and then going their own separate ways after service. Single males get hung out to dry in that setting. I have also thought about Unitarian church but it always seemed so upscale to me, I have a real fear that I wouldn't fit in there any better than I have anywhere else. What I really want is to get back to working days and find a band to sing with, that's be my church and social life. bdp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted April 6, 2006 Share Posted April 6, 2006 The only way I'll step into any sort of Church is for a wedding or a funeral, outside of that No way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted April 6, 2006 Share Posted April 6, 2006 Nahhhhh... Dislike people blathering while I am trying to get the telescope on rifle zeroed in whilst on range. Kinda pisses me of when folks gotta TALK while doing the Worship of John Moses Browning on Sunday morning. Only thing I wanna hear is the kid or my spotter telling me "Up 3, left 2" as they direct the 500 meter+ range fire. That and the sound of the steel gongs being well struck at long distances. After Church via Lead and Copper Jacketed Therapy? Hell I don't care, it is often time for evening meal and The Simpsons... When I can be offered free hand rolled rifle ammo for worship, I might consider *church* on an organized basis. Otherwise? Fugg'im! kL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggy Posted April 7, 2006 Author Share Posted April 7, 2006 Hey thanks all for your replies / views! Nivek - i like your posts but i have to confess I don't understand all of them MonsterFeet If you go to this church let me know how you get on?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted April 7, 2006 Share Posted April 7, 2006 Interesting question that would require certain conditions if I were to consider it. Firstly, it would have to be one where it was a gathering of people specifically to talk about human spirituality, without any beholding to a specific deity as "The Truth". There would be no acts of worship or devotion to any gods: no praying, songs of praise, etc. Only humans talking with humans about being human. I think there is something to be gained in understanding the world through understanding other's perspectives on these topics, but church historically is a place where worship of god(s) takes place. I believe in the benefit of human spirituality, but find worshipping deities is something that no longer works in my sense of spirituality. I certainly have a deep sense of appreciation for the sake of being alive in response to my awareness of my own existence, but bowing before a myth symbol as an expression of that sense, would not work for me. It would cause my experience of my life to be lessened before the feet of some idol. Interesting question that would require certain conditions if I were to consider it. Firstly, it would have to be one where it was a gathering of people specifically to talk about human spirituality, without any beholding to a specific deity as "The Truth". There would be no acts of worship or devotion to any gods: no praying, songs of praise, etc. Only humans talking with humans about being human. I think there is something to be gained in understanding the world through understanding other's perspectives on these topics, but church historically is a place where worship of god(s) takes place. I believe in the benefit of human spirituality, but find worshipping deities is something that no longer works in my sense of spirituality. I certainly have a deep sense of appreciation for the sake of being alive in response to my awareness of my own existence, but bowing before a myth symbol as an expression of that sense, would not work for me. It would cause my experience of my life to be lessened before the feet of some idol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted April 8, 2006 Share Posted April 8, 2006 Robert, You might want to take a look at the works of John Shelby Spong and Matthew Fox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggy Posted April 8, 2006 Author Share Posted April 8, 2006 Interesting question that would require certain conditions if I were to consider it. Firstly, it would have to be one where it was a gathering of people specifically to talk about human spirituality, without any beholding to a specific deity as "The Truth". There would be no acts of worship or devotion to any gods: no praying, songs of praise, etc. Only humans talking with humans about being human. I think there is something to be gained in understanding the world through understanding other's perspectives on these topics, but church historically is a place where worship of god(s) takes place. I believe in the benefit of human spirituality, but find worshipping deities is something that no longer works in my sense of spirituality. I certainly have a deep sense of appreciation for the sake of being alive in response to my awareness of my own existence, but bowing before a myth symbol as an expression of that sense, would not work for me. It would cause my experience of my life to be lessened before the feet of some idol. Interesting question that would require certain conditions if I were to consider it. Firstly, it would have to be one where it was a gathering of people specifically to talk about human spirituality, without any beholding to a specific deity as "The Truth". There would be no acts of worship or devotion to any gods: no praying, songs of praise, etc. Only humans talking with humans about being human. I think there is something to be gained in understanding the world through understanding other's perspectives on these topics, but church historically is a place where worship of god(s) takes place. I believe in the benefit of human spirituality, but find worshipping deities is something that no longer works in my sense of spirituality. I certainly have a deep sense of appreciation for the sake of being alive in response to my awareness of my own existence, but bowing before a myth symbol as an expression of that sense, would not work for me. It would cause my experience of my life to be lessened before the feet of some idol. Antlerman I agree with you Just musing over what would be possible I really like the way you word things an i usually read your posts twice - so thanks for saving me the effort of going back to the start chefranden - thank you Interesting links Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted April 8, 2006 Share Posted April 8, 2006 Robert.... When we "Worship JMB and his Creation", usually we are changing dollar bills into smoke and noise on any given Sunday... kL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted April 8, 2006 Share Posted April 8, 2006 When I saw this one, I cracked up. Nivek, isn't this a pic of a younger version of you and Beastie? And what kind of gun is that? Is that a beefed-up 22 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 When I saw this one, I cracked up. Nivek, isn't this a pic of a younger version of you and Beastie? And what kind of gun is that? Is that a beefed-up 22 ? Fwee, Coupla years back at a Fullauto shoot. Had hair and it was still brown then, even the chincactus had more dark than, umm, ahh, err, white.. One *might* say that Hk is a "beefed up .22".. It is a FA version of the Hk 5.56NATO/.223 battel rifle. I'm mentoring Beastie while he rips off the 40-rounder safely downrange. Beast has more time on fullauto firearms than most adults. Ruined him for slo-fire and less active and more sedate shooting sports.. Every weekend we can go is JMB Worship and High Hole-y Praise Day! kL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrmarlin Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 If a Church was liberal enough run meetings or discussion groups aimed at people who were honestly searching for and wanting to discuss human spirituality without attributing it to a specific religion. Would you go back to Church? You don't need a church to commun with god. Why would I go through the paces doing something I know is just a dogmatic behavior which serves no real purpose other than having me dry clean my good clothes every week rather than on special occasions -- which is when you really should wear you "go to meetin'" clothes to begin with? Church is a crutch, plain and simple. There is no need to placate some pastor's ego or listen to some chicks talking bullshit over coffee and donuts. If I want that, I can go to the gas n' sip on Sunday morning in my jeans and t-shirt instead. At least, when I do that, I can get the Sunday morning paper while I'm there. Now put a newpaper stand in a church lobby and then we'll talk again! But even then, I doubt I would reconsider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godless Wonder Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 Not me. I've learned enough about neuroscience and science in general that the very word "spiritual" just stinks of irrationalism and a non-truth-seeking kind of thought. Truth seeking thought means using ways of thought that lead to measurably accurate predictions of future sense data. "Spirituality," from what I have seen, invariably fails in this area, and amounts to equating feelings of awe to some sort of perception of some "higher" truth, yet this "higher truth" invariably fails to make any accurate predictions about future sense data. Basically, it's so much hokum, and you all can have it, I want no part of it, until you get scientific results (at which point, you'll probably lose interest, as it will cease to be "spiritual." Barf.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 Beast has more time on fullauto firearms than most adults. Ruined him for slo-fire and less active and more sedate shooting sports.. You're ruining this child, Nivek... He'll never make a very good sniper if you you keep trainin' him that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 I really like the way you word things an i usually read your posts twice - so thanks for saving me the effort of going back to the start I just noticed that. It happened for some weird reason when the board on Friday looks like it got hit with a virus. It crashed IE on my system after SAV caught the PW Stealing trojan. I had to hard reboot it was so bad.. glad to see it's "healed" now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 Truth seeking thought means using ways of thought that lead to measurably accurate predictions of future sense data. "Spirituality," from what I have seen, invariably fails in this area, and amounts to equating feelings of awe to some sort of perception of some "higher" truth, yet this "higher truth" invariably fails to make any accurate predictions about future sense data. Basically, it's so much hokum, and you all can have it, I want no part of it, until you get scientific results (at which point, you'll probably lose interest, as it will cease to be "spiritual." Barf.) I agree that using "spiritual" ways in pursuit of understanding objective truths invariably does fail and can lead to huge amounts of contradictions, confusion, abuses of power, and in my opinion, a disservice to the human spirit by supplanting rationality with non-rationality (versus “irrationality”) when it comes to objective reality. At the same time, supplanting the non-rational nature of the human experience of life with pure rationality can also sap the human spirit. A rational understanding of why the sky is blue, does not offer anything to the human spirit in its response to it. Conversely, starting with a sense of awe and extrapolating that the sky is blue because that's the skin color of the sky gods, doesn't offer anything to the rational mind curious for usable knowledge. Neither approach by itself can satisfy whatever it is that makes us human. We are both rational and non-rational. The problem is the contradictions that are inherent in being human. Aesthetic “thought” is non-rational; it is what “spirituality” is born from. It’s what human institutions do with it afterwards that twists into the enemy of the rational mind. BTW, these are the sorts of discussion I would be willing to have in a "church", but no blue sky-god worshipping for me, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 Truth seeking thought means using ways of thought that lead to measurably accurate predictions of future sense data. "Spirituality," from what I have seen, invariably fails in this area, and amounts to equating feelings of awe to some sort of perception of some "higher" truth, yet this "higher truth" invariably fails to make any accurate predictions about future sense data. Basically, it's so much hokum, and you all can have it, I want no part of it, until you get scientific results (at which point, you'll probably lose interest, as it will cease to be "spiritual." Barf.) I agree that using "spiritual" ways in pursuit of understanding objective truths invariably does fail and can lead to huge amounts of contradictions, confusion, abuses of power, and in my opinion, a disservice to the human spirit by supplanting rationality with non-rationality (versus “irrationality”) when it comes to objective reality. At the same time, supplanting the non-rational nature of the human experience of life with pure rationality can also sap the human spirit. A rational understanding of why the sky is blue, does not offer anything to the human spirit in its response to it. Conversely, starting with a sense of awe and extrapolating that the sky is blue because that's the skin color of the sky gods, doesn't offer anything to the rational mind curious for usable knowledge. Neither approach by itself can satisfy whatever it is that makes us human. We are both rational and non-rational. The problem is the contradictions that are inherent in being human. Aesthetic “thought” is non-rational; it is what “spirituality” is born from. It’s what human institutions do with it afterwards that twists into the enemy of the rational mind. BTW, these are the sorts of discussion I would be willing to have in a "church", but no blue sky-god worshipping for me, thanks. I love the way you think Antlerman. I think that spirituality is the wrong word for the process, but I'm at a loss to come up with another one. I think spirituality is an internal excercise of "know thy self" and understanding how you relate to your own truth. It's a human experience and does not require the belief in a god. It requires belief in yourself. Taph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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