SkepticOfBible Posted April 6, 2006 Share Posted April 6, 2006 On "A Christian and Atheist Forum", someone raised a issue about whether people are punished for unbelief. The christian answer are priceless especially when bible verse were presented which said that people are punished for unbelief t IS a punishment, it is a punishment for SIN, not for non-belief. "Belief", or more specifically, accepting and acknowleding Christ's sacrifice, is what grants you a reprieval. You aren't punished for not believing. If you believe, you aren't punished in spite of being deserving of punishment. I consider this to be a pretty fundamental concept of Christianity, and it seems to nullify most of this episode to me. .... . Yes, people are condemned as a result of unbelief, and they would not be condemned if they did believe. But they are not condemned FOR not believing, they are condemned for the sin that they have done that they have not been forgiven. .......... It's not about belief or punishment. If there's a God who gave us the freedom of choice, He lets us have what we want. If we believe there is no God, and thus we have a finite life, He'll give it to us (not happily, but He will). If we believe that God is the only one who can give us eternal life, and we want it, He'll give that to us. ....... what I think Resse is trying to say mike (maybe), is that those verses are statements of facts and not causality. They don't say, the unbeliever will be punished for not believing, but simply that unbelievers will be punished. ...... think it is an important disctinction to make because if all people were being condemned for was an unbelief, then I would think that one would be correct in considering that unjust http://www.achristianandanatheist.com/phpB...php?p=2268#2268 Do feel free to Jump in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rachel Posted April 6, 2006 Share Posted April 6, 2006 if we supposedly have free will given by God, and exercise that free will by being a "non-believer," why then, would he punish us for using a gift that He Himself has given us? ludicrous. where is the eye roll smiley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted April 6, 2006 Share Posted April 6, 2006 You mean this one? ----> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted April 6, 2006 Share Posted April 6, 2006 I like how it all illustrates the increasingly difficult time serious Xians are having with trying to justify their cruel religion in an era of increased compassion amongst all people. It's not "unbelief" that damns a person so much as it is "sin" that condemns. Whatever. They just can't admit their god punishes people for things that are not crimes against human beings but rather for anything that displeases him. "Sin" = "crime" in the minds of most Xians, but even most Xians understand there is nothing criminal about having a non-xian religion. But since thier god hates infidels, they have to try and use enlightened human morality to justify their god, which will always be an impossible task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkepticOfBible Posted April 11, 2006 Author Share Posted April 11, 2006 Seems like I have finally ruffled some feathers of the christian webmaster. http://www.achristianandanatheist.com/phpB...p?t=16&start=30 This time the topic being "Did the Apostle Matthew wrote the Gospel of Matthew?" Could you guys check out my post over there and see if my arguements needs improvement. I am not really a expert on the authorship of the bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artur Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RHEMtron Posted April 26, 2006 Share Posted April 26, 2006 you dont need any help at all!! he didnt really address any of your questions, he brought up a whole lotta speculations, he gives no support for any of his points. if he was stumped, all he could ever say was: "You're still making very weak arguments." or when you ask him to back up a claim: "There's no need to waste my time giving it, you can read virtually any commentary..." good job bro! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted April 26, 2006 Share Posted April 26, 2006 I thought you were doing an okay job but clearly neither of you are biblical authorship professors (no offense...I claim nothing more than novice myself). Here's an interesting link I came across: http://www.abu.nb.ca/Courses/NTIntro/Matt.htm They seem to do a fair review of the evidence at hand and conclude a Jew wrote it. That's about it. Maybe it was Matthew but who knows? It's certain they aren't heavily leaning in Matthew's favor but accept that he's about the only candidate for the position (based on the mention of Matthew being a tax collector, rumors of texts my Matthew and early church documents attributing it to Matthew). To me this adds up to "We have to attribute it to someone so why not Matthew?" which is not satisfying in the least. They don't totally agree with all I've read but they give another point of view from the xian side of things (even though they appear to be reaching at times). Now whether the Atlantic Baptist University is good enough for Norton to accept is another story. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RHEMtron Posted April 26, 2006 Share Posted April 26, 2006 I thought you were doing an okay job but clearly neither of you are biblical authorship professors (no offense...I claim nothing more than novice myself). yeah but skeptic said it best: If one has to be a expert to understand the "origins"/writings of the bible, then I pretty much I have no use for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted April 26, 2006 Share Posted April 26, 2006 yeah but skeptic said it best: If one has to be a expert to understand the "origins"/writings of the bible, then I pretty much I have no use for it. Can't argue with that. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExRC Posted April 27, 2006 Share Posted April 27, 2006 if we supposedly have free will given by God, and exercise that free will by being a "non-believer," why then, would he punish us for using a gift that He Himself has given us? ludicrous. where is the eye roll smiley. Even better...God is also all knowing (omniscence). He knows what you are going to do before you even do it. He knew exactly what you would be doing this moment before he even created you! Why does that matter you ask? God gave you free will. God KNEW you would exercise your free will in a manner that would condemn your soul to eternal damnation BEFORE HE EVEN CREATED YOU! Why did he create you in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 God gave you free will. God KNEW you would exercise your free will in a manner that would condemn your soul to eternal damnation BEFORE HE EVEN CREATED YOU! Why did he create you in the first place? Isn't it obvious? God won't violate free will. God somehow told us before we were born that this would be the case and yet we all used our free will to accept this scenerio and be born so that we could go to hell and be tortured forever after a lifetime of rejecting him (since we seemed to have forgotten he existed, by choice I'm sure, after we were born). How about the question if the idea that humans, since the fall, love evil and actively reject good is true then would that not mean that anything we love would be evil? This would make accepting the bible and its god evil as well. If we can't trust our own reasoning then any reason, including "fath," for accepting the bible would be in question as would all reasoning to reject it. Since we could never be sure of any choice being the non-evil choice then all choices would be suspect. Along the same lines if we are to reject the ways of the world, and right now the religion of the world, by raw numbers, is xianity would that not mean we should reject it? mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 think it is an important disctinction to make because if all people were being condemned for was an unbelief, then I would think that one would be correct in considering that unjust[/color] http://www.achristianandanatheist.com/phpB...php?p=2268#2268 Do feel free to Jump in Heh. I have to wonder how, exactly that is a distinction. It's like saying: All oranges are orange. All oranges will go to hell for being orange. No wait, only the orange oranges will be punished. It has nothing to do with them being orange whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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