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4 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

If I say I can fly do you believe me?

I'm sure you can. It's the landing that would be the hard part.ūüėÄ

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15 minutes ago, older said:

I'm sure you can. It's the landing that would be the hard part.ūüėÄ

 

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the difference between "fly" and "fall". Similar in concept, but massive practical differences. :P ::D

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16 hours ago, KNC said:

 

I disagreeÔĽŅÔĽŅ withÔĽŅ you that I have to explain why some prayers go unanswered.ÔĽŅ I absolutely do not! Why would I owe an explanation? ÔĽŅI'm ÔĽŅnot claiming to be God or explain all the ways of God. ¬†I don't expectÔĽŅ a good scientist, or a good skeptic, to explain everything thaÔĽŅtÔĽŅ is not understood yetÔĽŅ eitherÔĽŅÔĽŅ.ÔĽŅÔĽŅ ÔĽŅ

I concur that you do not have to explain why "some" prayers go unanswered.  But, you do have to explain why all valid scientific statistical studies of the impact of prayer, outside of the placebo effect, show zero correlation between prayer and desired prayer outcomes before you can rationally claim prayer, and not some effective ramdomness, caused some positive result.

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10 minutes ago, KNC said:

"You do have to explain why all valid scientific statistical studies..."

Nope, don't have to explain what men and women in white coats and goggles are doing with their lives.  They do what they do, surmise what they surmise, and I stick to the truth of my own life.

 

10 minutes ago, KNC said:

No scientific study can measure my Soul.

 

Nothing can measure the soul. We don't even know what a soul is. There is no evidence such a thing even exists. It's a bald assertion presented without evidence against all known facts about life. It's basically an argument from ignorance: You can't explain this therefore my god. How do you know pixie fairies didn't coat you with invisible magic dust? We can measure them as good as we can a soul therefore should be just as valid an explanation.

 

10 minutes ago, KNC said:

No scientific study can explain all the "coincidences" I've experienced. Once I prayed in a hotel room, sick as a dog, could hardly lift my head, and I fell down by the bed and opened a Psalm. I read it and prayed and immediately I was made well. Must've been something in the water.

 

My first thought would be placebo effect. I've seen this in my ex church. People pray, get a placebo boost and are 'healed' and praise god. Have you ruled that out? My grandmother would have a similar thing with headaches. Pop a pill and immediately announce the headache was gone. Well that's impossible because the drugs don't work that fast. What was happening is the expectation was giving her a placebo effect and making her feel better. It's quite amazing, you could read up on it if you are interested.

 

However, lets assume it is as you say - god healed you. In order to believe that god is helping you in this case, in a situation that probably wasn't life threatening, you must also believe that same god is letting millions of children die in horrible ways. If this is the case your god is a capricious jerk and I don't know why you'd worship a being that will heal people of a cold or help them find keys, whatever, but will let children die by the millions. Children of devout Christian parents I might add.

 

And who is healing the Muslims, the Hindus, the Buddhists, and the atheists? Does it not matter what you believe about this god, because each of these groups has stories similar to yours.

 

 

10 minutes ago, KNC said:

I don't really need the white coats to validate the truths of my life so far.  I'm not seeking validation.   

You take randomness, I'll take the Kingdom of God. 

 

We don't take randomness, we merely accept there are some things that are unexplained, and that inserting our favourite explanation doesn't lead to truth.

 

What Kingdom of God? The one wrote about by men, in a book with so many errors and contradictions you couldn't make it into a viable TV series because of the plot holes in it? Again if you have witnessed the kingdom that means your god is being very picky and showing it to a select few and then damming the rest of us because he doesn't show us. Once more you are back at a capricious god.

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On 4/3/2019 at 4:17 PM, KNC said:

I'm determined to be a good scientist and go where the truth leads.

...

 

2 hours ago, KNC said:

...I don't really need the white coat [scientists] to validate the truths of my life so far.

...   

You take randomness, I'll take the Kingdom of God. 

 

 

Have you changed your mind?

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3 hours ago, sdelsolray said:
On 4/3/2019 at 4:17 PM, KNC said:

I'm determined to be a good scientist and go where the truth leads.

...

 

5 hours ago, KNC said:

...I don't really need the white coat [scientists] to validate the truths of my life so far.

...   

You take randomness, I'll take the Kingdom of God. 

¬†ÔĽŅ

¬†ÔĽŅ

Have you changed your mind?

 

What sdelsolray said.

 

You said you wanted to be a "good scientist", and valued truth....the scientific variety heavily implied.

 

Did you change your mind, or just lied?  Or, are you just so damn unique and special as to not be bound by the science of statistical probability?  

 

Or maybe the most likely senario involves self delusion.

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4 hours ago, KNC said:

I don't see the problem?

I am open like a scientist, but when real experience becomes a variable, I have a new equation to think about.  When the new experience comes along, I have to review my previous work and consider it honestly.  I'm still in that consideration stage.  I think the fact I was willing to be examined by mental health professionals, to honestly see where it lead, shows my commitment to being open.  The white coats said I was sane and nondelusional. Should I now discredit that branch of science?

 

I have this experience where my mind (supposedly) takes in all this information input from the 5 senses and then creates a 3 dimensional multi-sensory experience. We call it waking life. Waking life is full of illogical contradictions, wars, love, hate, drama, jumbo shrimp ( smile ) , quantum double slit experiments, quantum entanglement, etc. But people (who, of course are also part of this experience) insist it's all real. Then using this tenuous assumption of reality, some will also insist that anything randomly manifested or observed only by you and not them is bullshit. Their contention is that something can only be considered real if ALL beings consisting mostly of empty space at the atomic level people can experience the same thing and of course recreate it on demand. (Kind of robs one of the spice of life, imo).

 

But at some point we fall asleep and waking life disappears. Then, without any sensory input at all I, you and everyone else somehow creates a 3 dimensional multi-sensory experience called a dream that behaves much like the other 3D universe. But, but but, a dream cant be real! The other reality is the real one, right? Reality is independent and separate from me. Isnt it? We all like to have a solid frame of reference for living, some are more insistent about it than others.

 

My question: Is reality really real at all? Or just a construct? If it's a construct, then seeing a translucent apparition is no more delusional than seeing a car, a house or anything else. And the bottom line for me is if my occasional observation  or belief causes no mental discomfort, then it's no big deal (even if God isnt real, whatever real is) ... (Christianity is fun to debate though).

 

TL/DR: If one hallucination has a private one-off experience, the other hallucinations will call the first hallucination delusional. :)

 

TL/DR: Reality is just a label for an experience. No need to get worked up over it.

 

Catch all you hallucinations later. :)

 

edited: because.

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4 hours ago, KNC said:

I don't see the problem?

I am open like a scientist, but when real experience becomes a variable, I have a new equation to think about.  When the new experience comes along, I have to review my previous work and consider it honestly.  I'm still in that consideration stage.  I think the fact I was willing to be examined by mental health professionals, to honestly see where it lead, shows my commitment to being open.  The white coats said I was sane and nondelusional. Should I now discredit that branch of science?

 

OK, so, what you are processing with is "science like".  You are not claiming that you are using the scientific method.

 

No one is allowed the privilege to suspend pieces of the scientific method and still describe their results as "science".

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5 hours ago, KNC said:

I don't see the problem?

I am open like a scientist, but when real experience becomes a variable, I have a new equation to think about.  When the new experience comes along, I have to review my previous work and consider it honestly.  I'm still in that consideration stage.  I think the fact I was willing to be examined by mental health professionals, to honestly see where it lead, shows my commitment to being open.  The white coats said I was sane and nondelusional. Should I now discredit that branch of science?

 

Again, thanks for the response.  I suspect you and I have a different understanding of what being a "good scientist" entails.

 

Earlier in this thread I responded to one of your posts and asked some followup questions.  I have not heard back from you about them.  Below is that response and those questions (in a different font).  I would appreciate it if you would address them.

 

Thank you for your response.  Let me repeat what I hear you saying because communication and understanding are important:

 

Spirit is an immaterial reality which will continue after we die.  You equate "Spirit" with "Soul" (I note your proper capitalization of these two words).  You believe you have a Spirit/Soul.

 

If my interpretations of your prior writings are more or less correct, you are a dualist, primarily in Rene Descartes/Christianity vein, at least for the narrow topic that I raised in my first post in this thread.

 

To takes things a bit further, I have a few questions:

 

1)  Do other species of life on Earth have a "Spirit" or "Soul" like you do?

 

2)  What is the composition of this spirit or soul (please excuse my reversion to non-proper capitalization)?  Does it contain your personal memories, beliefs, virtues and/or flaws?  Does it sense its environment in real time?  Does it exist in real time?

 

3)  Does your spirit or soul have a metabolism requiring something to continue to exist after physical death, such as energy or something else?

 

4)  As a hypothetical, assuming you die, what does your surviving spirit/soul do afterwards?  What is its purpose?

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3 hours ago, midniterider said:

Then using this tenuous assumption of reality, some will also insist that anything randomly manifested or observed only by you and not them is bullshit. Their contention is that something can only be considered real if ALL beings consisting mostly of empty space at the atomic level people can experience the same thing and of course recreate it on demand. .

 

You wouldn't be strawmanning anyone would you midnite? 

 

I think there is a difference between saying "you are full of bullshit" and "I don't think you have enough evidence to reach your conclusion." Yes? Part of being honest about finding what is true is not getting bullshitted by ourselves. 

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5 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

You wouldn't be strawmanning anyone would you midnite? 

 

I think there is a difference between saying "you are full of bullshit" and "I don't think you have enough evidence to reach your conclusion." Yes? Part of being honest about finding what is true is not getting bullshitted by ourselves. 

 

Yes, you are correct. Major strawmanning. My error as well as being overly fiesty. I shouldn't post anything in the morning. I just got fired up over use of the word delusion/delusional. It has a negative connotation as in "you're bonkers." I think we all have some kind of delusion yet are 100% functional human beings. Ok, 95% at least. :)

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2 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

Yes, you are correct. Major strawmanning. My error as well as being overly fiesty. I shouldn't post anything in the morning. I just got fired up over use of the word delusion/delusional. It has a negative connotation as in "you're bonkers." I think we all have some kind of delusion yet are 100% functional human beings. Ok, 95% at least. :)

 

Yeah, I think that was the wrong word but I couldn't think of anything better to explain what I was getting at. Basically my point was how can we rule out your brain pulling tricksies on you? I was aware of the strong usage of delusion and was going to address that in her (KNC) reply. I meant in a don't be fooled way, not a you're bonkers way.

 

Though I do think you are bonkers at times ;) :P 

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12 hours ago, KNC said:

¬†I knowÔĽŅÔĽŅÔĽŅÔĽŅÔĽŅÔĽŅ youÔĽŅ will immediatelyÔĽŅ ÔĽŅdismiss thiÔĽŅsÔĽŅÔĽŅÔĽŅ

Absent credible evidence supporting your conjectures/conclusion, the answer is yes.

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On 4/5/2019 at 12:21 PM, KNC said:

The KIngdom of God is a hierarchy of another realm, of heavenly beings.  That's what I've been shown.  Jesus talked about us coming to God as a child and being born again in the spirit. He also spoke of the Kingdom of God as being within you.  ("It doesn't come with your careful observation...")

 

Ok, if we go back to your statement of following the scientific path and having an open mind, how would you define another realm, heavenly beings etc, and show that these things exist? Part of the scientific method is being able to show results to others. Now many don't like this because if you have no re-producible data, or sufficient pile of evidence then it's just guess work. Midnite was hitting at this in his post, and I agree it's possible there could be something beyond our means of scientific investigation. However, possible does not equate to probable. It's possible that we are brains in a vat, or that we are just computer code. But everything we investigate leads us to conclude our world is real, and that it follows physical laws, and thus we have no choice but to assume it's real. That doesn't mean we can simply invent explanations when we come up against the unknown.

 

Quote

I asked God about this on Palm Sunday 2011.  I was driving to a coastal town to visit a relative. At that time I was still married to an Episcopal priest and attending church.  I "talked" to God during the several hours drive. I asked about church because I've never really been "churched." 

 

The glib reply is what did God say? Apparently God talks to many people and his will seems to coincide with their's which I find suspicious. 

 

But seriously, did God reply to you. When you say talked, I'm assuming you had a talk inside your head or talked out loud which is similar to what I used to do? If so did you get any actual reply - and I don't mean a feeling.

 

Quote

 

Later that day I went out to the beach by myself to take some photos.  There was no one nearby and no trees or power lines or anything.  I looked down in the sand and saw a perfect Gregorian shadow cross, with my own body as the vertical part. I took the picture and I got chills, for that it is when I "heard" a reminder that I, myself, am the temple (Corinthians).

 

Do you have the picture? Can you upload it?

 

Quote

Is my god a capricious god? Well, I am open to where the truth leads. If it appears God is capricious, then I guess that could be true.

 

And if it is true would you still worship a capricious god? 

 

Quote

 It may not seem fair why God "shows" some people and not others, but then again,  do you confide in every one you meet? To whom does God confide and why?  To whom do you confide and why?

 

No I don't, but comparing a human who is greatly limited to an unlimited being is missing the point. I don't go an judge people for something I haven't confided in them. God on the other had is sending everyone to hell who doesn't believe in him. So some people he's giving a personal experience, and others he's not, and then saying well you didn't believe so hellfire for you sonny. Do you think that is even remotely fair? We are back at a capricious god.

 

Quote

 

I learned that the Kingdom of God is filled with three major groups: servants of God, friends of God, and lovers of God.  I was a servant and then became closer and closer.  As I was more and more open to growing spiritually, the more I "saw" and "heard."  

 

Again I am left pondering how you could know this? And how do you show this to someone who has different people telling them different things, most of which is mutually exclusive meaning they cannot all be right - but they can all be wrong.

 

To finish off, here is a conversation between Matt Dillihunty and a caller who can't explain life experience except that it was God. (Similar situation to you). Matt goes through the points I'm trying to go through with you.. except he does it better. It's 17 off minutes, might be worth listening to?

 

 

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1 hour ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Yeah, I think that was the wrong word but I couldn't think of anything better to explain what I was getting at. Basically my point was how can we rule out your brain pulling tricksies on you? I was aware of the strong usage of delusion and was going to address that in her (KNC) reply. I meant in a don't be fooled way, not a you're bonkers way.

 

Though I do think you are bonkers at times ;) :P 

 

I'm pretty harmless though. I just enjoy weird thoughts. I was in a store once though and went to send my wife a text message and found a message partially written that I didnt write. And it didnt make any sense (to me) either. So I had to delete it and type a new one. I should have taken a photo of it but didnt. Oh well. 

 

Speaking of bonkers, see this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Glitch_in_the_Matrix/

 

I think if KNC has found a kinder gentler form of Christianity that works for her that's great. Or if she is transitioning towards non-belief, that's great too. I understand the others here are helping her using science, logic, evidence and so on ... and that's good too. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, midniterider said:

I think if KNC has found a kinder gentler form of Christianity that works for her that's great. Or if she is transitioning towards non-belief, that's great too. I understand the others here are helping her using science, logic, evidence and so on ... and that's good too. 

 

As my friend says "It's all good" (Usually when he's done something wrong and needs to fix up a mess :D )

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5 hours ago, KNC said:

I will try to look at this over the weekend. Thanks.

 

By the way, I thought somewhere in all this writing I made it clear I was no longer worshipping?  I don't believe my God commands me to worship Him. The God you keep referring to is not the one I buy hook, line, and sinker.  

 

Ah, apologies, I missed that. That in itself raises some interesting questions but I'll wait for your response once you've seen the video. 

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