Didnt god say that hell was made of the devil amd his angels? Why did he put human in hell as well?

[adelena4luv]

It does not make sense to say that it was for the devil and his angels but also throw in human beings as well. Cant he just not create human in the first place than to let them live and make god angry because of our "sinfulness" and save all jazz about "jesus dying on the cross for our sins" 

[mwc]

     God didn't want to put humans into hell but, like most things, the bean counters got involved and it just made more financial sense to double-up.  Hell was already built so it just made sense to save a few some money and stuff humans in there too.

 

     To further save money it was decided that these rebellious angels wouldn't be tortured down in hell but, instead, would be placed in charge.  It would be their "kingdom."  It sounded good in the pitch room since they did originally want to take over god's kingdom after all so instead of giving them the ultimate punishment they would get their own kingdom but one that wasn't as good.  Like a booby-prize.  Jokes on them, right?  And the subjects of this kingdom will be the humans.  The humans who didn't do anything more than break some arbitrary rules or dared to not believe a story.  These humans don't get to rule anything.  They get trapped and tortured by the original, original, sinners who have been rewarded with their own kingdom to run as they please.  It's a real cost saver.

 

          mwc

 

[adelena4luv]

3 hours ago, mwc said:

     God didn't want to put humans into hell but, like most things, the bean counters got involved and it just made more financial sense to double-up.  Hell was already built so it just made sense to save a few some money and stuff humans in there too.

 

     To further save money it was decided that these rebellious angels wouldn't be tortured down in hell but, instead, would be placed in charge.  It would be their "kingdom."  It sounded good in the pitch room since they did originally want to take over god's kingdom after all so instead of giving them the ultimate punishment they would get their own kingdom but one that wasn't as good.  Like a booby-prize.  Jokes on them, right?  And the subjects of this kingdom will be the humans.  The humans who didn't do anything more than break some arbitrary rules or dared to not believe a story.  These humans don't get to rule anything.  They get trapped and tortured by the original, original, sinners who have been rewarded with their own kingdom to run as they please.  It's a real cost saver.

 

          mwc

 

It is not like god lack financial resources in anyways. Since he claim that he love us,he wouldnt be so cheap as to condemn humans with the devils who did more evil than humans and is the cause of the" fall of mankind". Since god already sent his son to save mankind,this means that we are precious. Who would "bail" someone out using their own son but condemn them to hell. Its love unconditional? Why did he condemn humans when they dont believe in god and only save those that accept him? Sounds like he have insecurity issues

[adelena4luv]

3 hours ago, mwc said:

     God didn't want to put humans into hell but, like most things, the bean counters got involved and it just made more financial sense to double-up.  Hell was already built so it just made sense to save a few some money and stuff humans in there too.

 

     To further save money it was decided that these rebellious angels wouldn't be tortured down in hell but, instead, would be placed in charge.  It would be their "kingdom."  It sounded good in the pitch room since they did originally want to take over god's kingdom after all so instead of giving them the ultimate punishment they would get their own kingdom but one that wasn't as good.  Like a booby-prize.  Jokes on them, right?  And the subjects of this kingdom will be the humans.  The humans who didn't do anything more than break some arbitrary rules or dared to not believe a story.  These humans don't get to rule anything.  They get trapped and tortured by the original, original, sinners who have been rewarded with their own kingdom to run as they please.  It's a real cost saver.

 

          mwc

 

Wait,did you mean that the devils wouldnt be tortured in hell?I dont agree with you as quoted in the bible in rev 20:10 that the devil was cast into the lake of fire and that god is incharge of everything,not the devil. The devil and his angels as well as "sinful humans" are

[adelena4luv]

3 hours ago, mwc said:

     God didn't want to put humans into hell but, like most things, the bean counters got involved and it just made more financial sense to double-up.  Hell was already built so it just made sense to save a few some money and stuff humans in there too.

 

     To further save money it was decided that these rebellious angels wouldn't be tortured down in hell but, instead, would be placed in charge.  It would be their "kingdom."  It sounded good in the pitch room since they did originally want to take over god's kingdom after all so instead of giving them the ultimate punishment they would get their own kingdom but one that wasn't as good.  Like a booby-prize.  Jokes on them, right?  And the subjects of this kingdom will be the humans.  The humans who didn't do anything more than break some arbitrary rules or dared to not believe a story.  These humans don't get to rule anything.  They get trapped and tortured by the original, original, sinners who have been rewarded with their own kingdom to run as they please.  It's a real cost saver.

 

          mwc

 

The orginal sinner wasnt human,it was the devil. In john 8:44,it states that the devil is the father or lies and therefore is the first beings to ever sin

[adelena4luv]

3 hours ago, mwc said:

     God didn't want to put humans into hell but, like most things, the bean counters got involved and it just made more financial sense to double-up.  Hell was already built so it just made sense to save a few some money and stuff humans in there too.

 

     To further save money it was decided that these rebellious angels wouldn't be tortured down in hell but, instead, would be placed in charge.  It would be their "kingdom."  It sounded good in the pitch room since they did originally want to take over god's kingdom after all so instead of giving them the ultimate punishment they would get their own kingdom but one that wasn't as good.  Like a booby-prize.  Jokes on them, right?  And the subjects of this kingdom will be the humans.  The humans who didn't do anything more than break some arbitrary rules or dared to not believe a story.  These humans don't get to rule anything.  They get trapped and tortured by the original, original, sinners who have been rewarded with their own kingdom to run as they please.  It's a real cost saver.

 

          mwc

 

The devil is the first being to ever sin as he rebelled against god first and became a serpent in the garden of eden to manipulate eve.

[mwc]

19 hours ago, adelena4luv said:

Wait,did you mean that the devils wouldnt be tortured in hell?I dont agree with you as quoted in the bible in rev 20:10 that the devil was cast into the lake of fire and that god is incharge of everything,not the devil. The devil and his angels as well as "sinful humans" are

 

19 hours ago, adelena4luv said:

The orginal sinner wasnt human,it was the devil. In john 8:44,it states that the devil is the father or lies and therefore is the first beings to ever sin

 

19 hours ago, adelena4luv said:

The devil is the first being to ever sin as he rebelled against god first and became a serpent in the garden of eden to manipulate eve.

     Ugh.  It seems you want me to be more serious.  I can do that I suppose.  We'll see how long it lasts.

 

     Hell doesn't exist.  Now, I'm not saying that to short-circuit the conversation but to move it along.  We're talking about the wrong words.  So, without looking at the verses in question to see what is actually there, when we say "hell" we're talking about three other things: Hades, Tartarus or Sheol.  If the word is Hades then Hades is both a reference to a god the kingdom he ruled.  If someone is sent to Hades they're sent to a kingdom (ruled by Hades).

 

     In the Revelation the Lake of Fire appears and you'll see that Hades gets emptied out.  If these are the same place it makes no sense whatsoever.  So Hades and the Lake of Fire cannot both be synonyms for what we call hell.  In this case we might even say that hell is destroyed by the Lake of Fire but, to us, that makes little sense.  Here's the verse: "14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire."  It makes no sense as "Then death and hell were thrown into hell."  They're not the same thing.  So Hades, which is referred to as hell, must be something entirely different.

 

     As an aside here, Tartarus is (was?) a place in Hades that is most similar to our idea of hell.  It had all the tortures and whatnot.  It was a place especially prepared for the Titans when the Athenian gods won the war and was later used for a general punishment that lasted 1000 years.  Read the   I think Paul is the only one to mention this.

 

     Let me quote to you from the end of Plato's Republic (which I highly recommend).  The last half dozen or so paragraphs of the book are the story of Er.  I'll just give you the first (fairly long) paragraph (remember that this was written hundreds of year prior to the new testament):

 

Quote

Well, I said, I will tell you a tale; not one of the tales which Odysseus tells to the hero Alcinous, yet this too is a tale of a hero, Er the son of Armenius, a Pamphylian by birth. He was slain in battle, and ten days afterwards, when the bodies of the dead were taken up already in a state of corruption, his body was found unaffected by decay, and carried away home to be buried. And on the twelfth day, as he was lying on the funeral pile, he returned to life and told them what he had seen in the other world. He said that when his soul left the body he went on a journey with a great company, and that they came to a mysterious place at which there were two openings in the earth; they were near together, and over against them were two other openings in the heaven above. In the intermediate space there were judges seated, who commanded the just, after they had given judgment on them and had bound their sentences in front of them, to ascend by the heavenly way on the right hand; and in like manner the unjust were bidden by them to descend by the lower way on the left hand; these also bore the symbols of their deeds, but fastened on their backs. He drew near, and they told him that he was to be the messenger who would carry the report of the other world to men, and they bade him hear and see all that was to be heard and seen in that place. Then he beheld and saw on one side the souls departing at either opening of heaven and earth when sentence had been given on them; and at the two other openings other souls, some ascending out of the earth dusty and worn with travel, some descending out of heaven clean and bright. And arriving ever and anon they seemed to have come from a long journey, and they went forth with gladness into the meadow, where they encamped as at a festival; and those who knew one another embraced and conversed, the souls which came from earth curiously enquiring about the things above, and the souls which came from heaven about the things beneath. And they told one another of what had happened by the way, those from below weeping and sorrowing at the remembrance of the things which they had endured and seen in their journey beneath the earth (now the journey lasted a thousand years), while those from above were describing heavenly delights and visions of inconceivable beauty. The Story, Glaucon, would take too long to tell; but the sum was this:—He said that for every wrong which they had done to any one they suffered tenfold; or once in a hundred years—such being reckoned to be the length of man's life, and the penalty being thus paid ten times in a thousand years. If, for example, there were any who had been the cause of many deaths, or had betrayed or enslaved cities or armies, or been guilty of any other evil behaviour, for each and all of their offences they received punishment ten times over, and the rewards of beneficence and justice and holiness were in the same proportion. I need hardly repeat what he said concerning young children dying almost as soon as they were born. Of piety and impiety to gods and parents, and of murderers, there were retributions other and greater far which he described. He mentioned that he was present when one of the spirits asked another, 'Where is Ardiaeus the Great?' (Now this Ardiaeus lived a thousand years before the time of Er: he had been the tyrant of some city of Pamphylia, and had murdered his aged father and his elder brother, and was said to have committed many other abominable crimes.) The answer of the other spirit was: 'He comes not hither and will never come. And this,' said he, 'was one of the dreadful sights which we ourselves witnessed. We were at the mouth of the cavern, and, having completed all our experiences, were about to reascend, when of a sudden Ardiaeus appeared and several others, most of whom were tyrants; and there were also besides the tyrants private individuals who had been great criminals: they were just, as they fancied, about to return into the upper world, but the mouth, instead of admitting them, gave a roar, whenever any of these incurable sinners or some one who had not been sufficiently punished tried to ascend; and then wild men of fiery aspect, who were standing by and heard the sound, seized and carried them off; and Ardiaeus and others they bound head and foot and hand, and threw them down and flayed them with scourges, and dragged them along the road at the side, carding them on thorns like wool, and declaring to the passers-by what were their crimes, and that they were being taken away to be cast into hell.' And of all the many terrors which they had endured, he said that there was none like the terror which each of them felt at that moment, lest they should hear the voice; and when there was silence, one by one they ascended with exceeding joy. These, said Er, were the penalties and retributions, and there were blessings as great.

     Notice the translator uses the word "hell" here too (but it's not...the word simply didn't exist yet).  All of this should seem vaguely familiar.  You can read the rest for yourself.  I'll spoil it to say Er does come back to life and report all this (he has to since we're reading all about it).  So it's the story about a guy who dies, visits the afterlife and returns to life from Plato's time in one of his most well read dialogues.

 

     Moving on from there the "devil and his angels" would work out to something along the lines of "the accuser and his messengers."  This is really less powerful and vague than our modern view and more in-line with Jewish thinking of the day.  Really, the word for "devil" works out more to "slanderer" and is one of division but the LXX uses it to translate hasatan (which is "accuser" and where "Satan" comes from) so accuser is fair enough here but if you prefer the one who slanders then that's not unreasonable.  Throughout the bible this character has always been used by god and even allowed to enter heaven at-will but suddenly is made the enemy of god for no real reason.  That is unless you read extra-biblical texts which people did then (but don't like to do nowadays).  My point here you couldn't have stories like Job, where satan just wanders into heaven and all that follows-on from there, if the xian theology is anywhere close to accurate.  It's one thing to have an enemy but another thing entirely to have one that comes into your kingdom, makes wagers with you and obeys you when you place rules and limitations on what they can do considering their last act was open rebellion. 

 

     Anyhow, I think I've been going on long and boring enough now.  The xian theology is just messed up and I just enjoy messing around with it.  It's not worth it treating it all that seriously.  It takes too much time and energy for something that I just don't believe in anymore.  I already spent too many years treating seriously.  Plus it just feels like I'm lecturing and I don't think anyone wants that.

 

          mwc

 

[adelena4luv]

8 hours ago, mwc said:

 

 

     Ugh.  It seems you want me to be more serious.  I can do that I suppose.  We'll see how long it lasts.

 

     Hell doesn't exist.  Now, I'm not saying that to short-circuit the conversation but to move it along.  We're talking about the wrong words.  So, without looking at the verses in question to see what is actually there, when we say "hell" we're talking about three other things: Hades, Tartarus or Sheol.  If the word is Hades then Hades is both a reference to a god the kingdom he ruled.  If someone is sent to Hades they're sent to a kingdom (ruled by Hades).

 

     In the Revelation the Lake of Fire appears and you'll see that Hades gets emptied out.  If these are the same place it makes no sense whatsoever.  So Hades and the Lake of Fire cannot both be synonyms for what we call hell.  In this case we might even say that hell is destroyed by the Lake of Fire but, to us, that makes little sense.  Here's the verse: "14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire."  It makes no sense as "Then death and hell were thrown into hell."  They're not the same thing.  So Hades, which is referred to as hell, must be something entirely different.

 

     As an aside here, Tartarus is (was?) a place in Hades that is most similar to our idea of hell.  It had all the tortures and whatnot.  It was a place especially prepared for the Titans when the Athenian gods won the war and was later used for a general punishment that lasted 1000 years.  Read the   I think Paul is the only one to mention this.

 

     Let me quote to you from the end of Plato's Republic (which I highly recommend).  The last half dozen or so paragraphs of the book are the story of Er.  I'll just give you the first (fairly long) paragraph (remember that this was written hundreds of year prior to the new testament):

 

     Notice the translator uses the word "hell" here too (but it's not...the word simply didn't exist yet).  All of this should seem vaguely familiar.  You can read the rest for yourself.  I'll spoil it to say Er does come back to life and report all this (he has to since we're reading all about it).  So it's the story about a guy who dies, visits the afterlife and returns to life from Plato's time in one of his most well read dialogues.

 

     Moving on from there the "devil and his angels" would work out to something along the lines of "the accuser and his messengers."  This is really less powerful and vague than our modern view and more in-line with Jewish thinking of the day.  Really, the word for "devil" works out more to "slanderer" and is one of division but the LXX uses it to translate hasatan (which is "accuser" and where "Satan" comes from) so accuser is fair enough here but if you prefer the one who slanders then that's not unreasonable.  Throughout the bible this character has always been used by god and even allowed to enter heaven at-will but suddenly is made the enemy of god for no real reason.  That is unless you read extra-biblical texts which people did then (but don't like to do nowadays).  My point here you couldn't have stories like Job, where satan just wanders into heaven and all that follows-on from there, if the xian theology is anywhere close to accurate.  It's one thing to have an enemy but another thing entirely to have one that comes into your kingdom, makes wagers with you and obeys you when you place rules and limitations on what they can do considering their last act was open rebellion. 

 

     Anyhow, I think I've been going on long and boring enough now.  The xian theology is just messed up and I just enjoy messing around with it.  It's not worth it treating it all that seriously.  It takes too much time and energy for something that I just don't believe in anymore.  I already spent too many years treating seriously.  Plus it just feels like I'm lecturing and I don't think anyone wants that.

 

          mwc

 

Hmm fair enough...but i appreciate your effort though