Falling in the trap Being a good ex christian

[Myrkhoos]

                   Issues from family and church are showing their face here. And from wherever. Like this mental habit of trying to guess what the rules are and please everyone by producing a nice image. I cam here,  I think, searching for the support, emotional support first, and intelectual, for things I thought and I still wish I had found in my community. Feel still a little guilty about that. A liitle more actually, but guilt is an issue anyway.

                    The whole habit , although complex in manifestion, boils down to, what can I do, to make you accept me and not hurt me. The classic childhood abuse thinking. I feel dependent on you, but you seem also threating and I am afraid, terrified of you, so I need to develop way of coping with the situation. Lie, cheat, fawn, manipulate, run, conceal, you name it. This is how I feel about God. Either do what he says, immediately, or else withdrawl, a combination of neglet - God goes away from you and abuse, God will punish, inflict pain on you. So the situation is abusive, I feel. 

                    I tried to be a good christian, not to offend anyone, and here there is the urge and the fact, that I have to be a good ex christian, or will be sent away, punished, etc. That fear which grips the heart, collapses all rational thought, and sends in a frenzy of denial, self denial, psychotic breakdowns, addictions of every sort. That terror which I think is the essence of some forms of this religion. Conscious, or unconscious. 

                  But, trying to be honest, I am still ambivalent about Christianity, I am still ambivalent of most everything. The rig was swept under me. And I am in weird place, personally, where i would like a palce to just relax and recover, but have no idea where to find something like that. No money, no job, no stability, being in a bad place. And just seeing that yeah, I could try and believe this some kind of divine test, but that is just my mind, it is just my thoughts. There is no angel or anything telling me this. What I thought was true, a lot of the time was not, and I am staring to see this, in therapy also, so what kind of trust can I have in my perceptions?

                I do not know where I am and where I am going, but trying to please on this forum so they will like will get me the exact same thing as before - pain and suffering. 

       So I do not like labels, that much. 

I do feel, though, that if God is this being for whom I feel the utmost terror and disgust, than Hell seems better. Who knows, maybe that is it, and our ideas are just ideas. I am in the process of seeing emotions, thoughts, ideas , opinions, as just that. Not saying they are real, or they are not real. Or what that even means. Some Buddhist sects have this idea of not naming, of mind stopping, because that kind of speculation leads nowhere. I kind of like that. Finding solace not in knowing, but in not knowing. In knowing the not knowing. In this sense, the only goal of true morality is in emptying oneself from inner objects. Compassion is just a way of seeing the other. It is not pure sentimentality, not that is wrong in itself, but it can cloud the mind. You just give and let go of experience. Receive and let go. One cannot let go if one does not receive. 

         I do not know, and maybe it is ok. 

 

[freshstart]

I empathize with you in many ways.  I understand what it is to be secretly terrified that if you don't behave in a certain way among those you love, you might not be loved in return.  And I can tell from your post that you tend to think deeply about things, perhaps over-think.  (I recognize this in myself as well).  You more-or-less conclude that you like the idea of "finding solace not in knowing, but in not knowing" and you are trying to "give and let go of experience" and  to see "emotion, thoughts, ideas, opinions as just that" without getting caught up in what it all means.  It sounds to me as though you might benefit from delving into serious meditation practice.  Perhaps you are already trying this?  I have found that the Headspace app, although a little pricey, has been a very practical way to approach things like anxiety, stress, over-thinking, insomnia, etc.  It draws upon eastern philosophical principles without incorporating any theology.  Perhaps trying something along these lines this might help to declutter your thoughts?

[Myrkhoos]

1 hour ago, freshstart said:

I empathize with you in many ways.  I understand what it is to be secretly terrified that if you don't behave in a certain way among those you love, you might not be loved in return.  And I can tell from your post that you tend to think deeply about things, perhaps over-think.  (I recognize this in myself as well).  You more-or-less conclude that you like the idea of "finding solace not in knowing, but in not knowing" and you are trying to "give and let go of experience" and  to see "emotion, thoughts, ideas, opinions as just that" without getting caught up in what it all means.  It sounds to me as though you might benefit from delving into serious meditation practice.  Perhaps you are already trying this?  I have found that the Headspace app, although a little pricey, has been a very practical way to approach things like anxiety, stress, over-thinking, insomnia, etc.  It draws upon eastern philosophical principles without incorporating any theology.  Perhaps trying something along these lines this might help to declutter your thoughts?

                      You know, I have started listening to some Buddhist teachers, one in particular who is very skeptical in nature, and sees reincarnation, and ghosts, and all that as more in the lines of speculation, than reality. Not that he is denying them, but who is not emphasizing them at all. Ajahn Sumedho. And I have found meditation to be a tremendous tool, altough I am a little reserved, as I still suffer from panic attacks, anxiety, and the sorts. But I do find his teaching soothing. I do not even regard him as Buddhist, just a person whose ideas I resonate with. Of course, the whole robes, chanting and buddha statues still freakes me out a bit, as Orthodox Christianity also has clerics in robes, chanting and icons, and that whole thing is still a bit too much. With time. And, for some reason, I find philosophy soothing as well. Anyway, this Ajahn Sumedho is very focused on recognising and liberating emotions, releasing preconceveid notions, investigating reality for yourself, so I find use in that. 

                     That terror, I think, is well preyed upon by some cults and religions, that child fear of being abandoned by parents. It is so incredible ingrained.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Sounds like you are gradually getting a grip on things.  Accepting self "as is", and believing in your own abilitiies can be hard if you have been undermined your whole life. HANG IN THERE!!  

 

I don't know your whole story.  Have you also looked at your family dynamics that may contribute to the problem?  The lack of self confidence usually is deeper than just religion.

[Myrkhoos]

8 hours ago, Weezer said:

Sounds like you are gradually getting a grip on things.  Accepting self "as is", and believing in your own abilitiies can be hard if you have been undermined your whole life. HANG IN THERE!!  

 

I don't know your whole story.  Have you also looked at your family dynamics that may contribute to the problem?  The lack of self confidence usually is deeper than just religion.

                  I am looking at that and going to therapy.  Let s just say my opinion so far is that I had family issues that were exacerbated until the brink of total breakdown by the religious practices I made. Of course, not all, but kind of 96 percent of it. Living in an ex communist country means that, usually, you carry some kind of trauma , leftover from parents. Was in the womb right through the 89 revolution in Romania and generally the eastern block. So lack of self confidence, extreme fear of authority, living under the threat of starvation and sometimes even arrest, were my mother and father s memories. As in waiting hours and days on end for bread, butter, oil, and the like, and having to have connections in order to secure food. My grandfather had a nervous meltdown during the period of collectivization, where the lands of the peasants were taken away and given to the state. He ended up living the end of his life in an insane asylum, although he was not violent. That plus the early years of transition to open democracy, where things were rather unstable.  Of course, it was not all the time like that, I mean it was not like living in Auchwitz or anything, but anyway, even the good times in tyrannic regimes have an underlying anxiety running through.And these are just the general stuff. the more intimate ones I do not feel it ok to disclose.

              Dictatorships and authoritarian regimes do end up traumatizing millions.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

OMG, I had no idea you had that in your background.  I would say you are doing very well, considering the situation you came through.  

 

I encourage you to keep exploring the core thoughts of Eastern thought.  I came to a new respect for Buddhism in my study of world religions/philosophy .  But as in all fields of thought, some go off on questionable tangents. Trust your "gut" feeling about things as you study.

 

In my decades of study I decided all "gods" and religions are myths, and my faith now is at the core of several world religions.  The "salvation" of mankind is to basically follow the golden rule.  I no longer believe Jesus was the son of God, but a lot of the teaching (attributed to him) is valid for enhancing the wellbeing of mankind.  It also needs to viewed in the historical context in which it was written.  I hope this is helpful. 

[Myrkhoos]

2 hours ago, Weezer said:

OMG, I had no idea you had that in your background.  I would say you are doing very well, considering the situation you came through.  

 

I encourage you to keep exploring the core thoughts of Eastern thought.  I came to a new respect for Buddhism in my study of world religions/philosophy .  But as in all fields of thought, some go off on questionable tangents. Trust your "gut" feeling about things as you study.

 

In my decades of study I decided all "gods" and religions are myths, and my faith now is at the core of several world religions.  The "salvation" of mankind is to basically follow the golden rule.  I no longer believe Jesus was the son of God, but a lot of the teaching (attributed to him) is valid for enhancing the wellbeing of mankind.  It also needs to viewed in the historical context in which it was written.  I hope this is helpful. 

The weird thing, from my meager studies, is that it is not clear at all what that phrase, son of God, actually means. In the Orthodox tradition, they have this idea of experiental knowledge of the dogmas, as in if ones does have some sort of personal revelation, through what they call the noetic mind, the contemplative inner core of humans, things cannot be understood. A kind of mystical insights of some sorts. But otherwise, I mean, he was fully human and fully divine, ...and all that, so what makes him any different from any other saint fully united with God? The theology is pretty wacky, if one does not have that kind of inner insight. I mean, they themselves say that these ideas, Son, Father, the nicene crede about the son being born our of the father, are, in best cases some kind of metaphors, or specific instruments for some kind of undestanding, because God is not like a human father and a human Son, and these are anthopoformisation. One of thea greatest theologians of the Eastern Church, John Damascene, explicitly says that many of the things Scripture says, like the eyes of God, the voice of God, etc, are just figures of speech. Gotta hand to them Orthodox, pretty neat thoughts sometimes. And the stories of the Desert fathers, and their sayings are just wonderful, even as just literature, if one considers them such. Sometimes I feel very conflicted. I still like many things in the Orthodox Church, especially the art, and mystical teachings. They are just beautiful, sometimes. Actually my whole view of my previous life is very conflicted. What, how, and when is true, good, what does christian even mean, really, and all that?My position is basically taking, or trying to get s step back and investigate and try not to, although it is tempting, to jump to conclusions.

        Yeah, I also found some respect for some parts of Buddhism. The guy or guys who made this philosophy of life were very refined individuals.  It seems to me like that.