Recent fear of hell panic attacks

[Myrkhoos]

So,

 

Been wondering, is it real?

 

It comes, this panick attack, with the absolute certainty that hell awaits me for my sins, and I have to confess and do exactly what God of the Orthodox Christian Bible says, and believe exactly what he says, and give anything else as demonic as wrong, any free thought, right now, otherwise demonic possesion is a given.

 

The weird thing is that the the thoughts in this panick attack are not profound or coming from understanding, as what it is a sin, what is confession, how it works, who or what is God, who and what to trust, etc, it is more in the line of OCD thoughts, obsessive and strong, but confused and vey unclear. Like some sort of false hope/ritual, do this and you will be ok, saved. Exactly like OCD rituals. 

 

It scares the shit out of me, and provokes the flight/fight/freeze/fawn/fantasy coping mechanism all at once.

 

The weird thing is that I tried for six years to do all that stuff, to force myself to believe, to obey, to confess, to get comunion, to stay in monasteries, to get exorcisms, visit holy relics, holy icons, and such, and very little progress. Once I tried psychotherapy and some natural anxiety remedies plus some other medical check ups and treatments it has started to subside.

 

The thing is, at leat in the Orthodox Church, fear of hell, as in extreme anxiety, there are descriptions of monks falling into terror states and refusing to do anything but pray for forgiveness, is considered a virtue, a gift from God.

 

My mind like goes blank, denies everything I read or know, goes into this is a real danger, I have to do this and this to escape, everything else, fuck that shit, like it doesn t matter how I feel, how and what I think, all that matters is escaping the wrath of God because I have a mild pornography addiction , weirdly enough provoked by the anxiety I live in , which prayer does not really make go away.

 

I just see a God who issues commands and threats, demands total dedication and love , kills his enemies and even killed his own Son and gave him up to be eaten.  I see a God that threatens people to Hell because they did not do works of charity, BUT that had to do with him, because doing stuff to them, means doing to Him. I see a God who asks complete submission. I see a God that creates danger and evil and then lets people fall into them and then blames them for them. I see a God that demands we be thankful for suffering and atrocities. I see a God that provokes Stokholm Syndrome in his followers, who start out fearing Him, like a victim, then loving him, being attached to Him, like little children to abusive parents, who uncounsciiusly deny everything bad that has happened, idealise parents and are fiercely loyal and interpret everything from them as being love and considering every other feeling bad. 

 

I see a God that plays mind games.

 

I am terrified, and pure and simple terrified that THIS God actually exists.  What if he exists? What if this thing, which I feel and think, these are opinions of course, is a monster, a total monster worse than any other monster ever, being all powerful, does exist? 

 

The terror, the sheer terror is amazing. I talked to a secular therapist friend, and said, you know, while I agree that child abuse, sexual and violent, is extremely traumatic, one does not understand the extreme point of anxiety if one has not experienced the fear of Hell. Of complete, eternal, conscious terror and torment with no escape. That is the reference point of anxiety. 

 

I feel like goung to Church and going trhough the motions just to relieve this extreme fear. God, it sounds like and addiction. 

 

Jehovah s witness with their anihilation theory sound nice in comparison to the Orthodox Church official version.

[Insightful]

Hey Myrkhoos -

Wow I'm sorry man that sounds pretty intense.  I suffered from panic disorder for about a year and that is not something I would wish on anyone.

 

Once in awhile I get a momentary fear - the " what if I'm wrong to reject Christianity?" moment.  Because, damn, if we are wrong we're pretty screwed!

 

But try out this little logical thought sequence and see if it works for you:

 

1.  If the Bible was true, we would be judged on whether or not we believed that Jesus was actually the Son of God who actually died on the cross for our sins.

 

2.  And if it were true, God would be all-knowing.

 

3.  The Bible is full of hopeless contradictions, inconsistencies, moral atrocities, and historical incongruities such that no clear-headed person could conclude with any degree of certainty that Jesus actually was the son of God who came and died for the sins of the world.

 

4.  I don't know about you, but if I knew for certain that it was absolutely true then I would certainly acknowledge that it was true and live my life accordingly.

 

5.  Therefore I conclude that if an all-knowing God exists, he would also know and understand all of the reasons that I simply cannot believe that it's true.  And he also would know that I would have readily believed it had he made it sufficiently clear.  Therefore I cannot imagine on what basis such a God would ever condemn me if he existed.

[★ Citsonga ★]

I'm sorry to hear about your panic attacks. That sort of thing sucks royally. It may be in your best interest to see a professional secular therapist.

 

In the meantime, it doesn't hurt to look into some of the background of the idea of Hell. The following is an excerpt from a letter I wrote a few years ago. I hope it can help you.

 

The Lake of Fire

The Bible says that "the beast" and "false prophet" will be "cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone" (Rev 19:20), and that "the devil" will also be "cast into the lake of fire and brimstone" and that they "shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever" (Rev 20:10). After that we read that "death and hell" and "whosoever was not found written in the book of life" will be "cast into the lake of fire," which it also calls "the second death" (Rev 20:14-15). Though it doesn't specify here, one would assume that this implies that everyone thrown into this lake of fire would also be tortured forever, just like it says will happen to the beast, false prophet and devil. Granted, Revelation is highly symbolic, so one could argue that this is not meant literally, especially given the reference to a "second death." For the sake of this writing, though, I will treat it literally, as traditional Christians tend to do.

As a side note, many confuse "hell" with the eternal "lake of fire." However, as can be seen from the statement that "hell" will be "cast into the lake of fire" (Rev 20:14), they are technically not the same thing in the Bible. "Hell" here is the Greek term "Hades," which was used for the grave, the nether world, the realm of the dead. But, since most people think of "Hell" as the lake of fire, from here on out that will be what I am referring to when I use the capitalized word "Hell" in quotes. So, let's move on and take a closer look at the concept of eternal torture and what the Bible has to say about "Hell."

To hear Christians talk, "Hell" is one of the most important topics in Christianity. Indeed, what we supposedly need saving from is "Hell." Yet, if "Hell" is such a hot topic (pun intended), and burning eternally is the final punishment for the wicked, then why is the concept of the lake of fire completely absent from the Old Testament? Sure, the word "hell" is found in the KJV Old Testament, but it is the Hebrew word "Sheol," which means the grave, the underworld, the abode of the dead, a pit. Though there are several places where the Old Testament refers to "fire" symbolically, there is no place in it that says anything about eternal torture in fire (when preachers use Old Testament verses to prove "Hell," a quick look at the context always reveals that they mean something else).

In the Old Testament, the punishment for wickedness is said to be death (Eze 3:18-19; 18:20,24; 33:8-14; Psalm 37:20; Prov 2:22). Beyond that, Isaiah says, "They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise" (Isa 26:14). Daniel contradicts that by saying, "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Dan 12:2), but though it doesn't fit with most of what we see in the Old Testament, even this verse doesn't say anything about torture.

There is a significant Old Testament verse to mention, though. Jeremiah says, "Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The valley of the son of Hinnom, but The valley of slaughter" (Jer 19:6). In this verse, "The valley of the son of Hinnom" in Hebrew is "gay ben Hinnom," or "gay Hinnom" ("The valley of Hinnom") for short, and is the basis of a later Greek word "Gehenna" that referred to a valley south of Jerusalem where they reportedly burned trash, dead animals and at times the corpses of executed criminals. This "Gehenna" is translated "hell" in the New Testament.

So, for clarification, there are two Greek words commonly translated "hell" in the New Testament. "Hades," as mentioned previously, refers to the grave or the netherworld. "Gehenna," on the other hand, was the city dump where refuse was burned. (The Greek word "tartaroo" is also translated "hell," but it's only used once in the Bible and its meaning is comparable to "Hades.") Now let's look at a few uses of "Gehenna."

When we read, "Whosever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire" (Matt 5:22), that "hell fire" is referring to the burning dump south of Jerusalem. So is the statement, "It is profitable for thee that one of thy members (body parts) should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell" (Matt 5:29-30). When we read, "Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell" (Luke 12:5), that is again using the burning city dump for imagery.

In addition we read, "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:43-44). This is an often cited passage about "Hell," but let's dig deeper. Not only is this using the imagery of "Gehenna" discussed above, but it is based on an Old Testament quote that says, "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched" (Isaiah 66:24).  What is being talked about here is clearly not eternal torture, but simply mounting corpses. The worm not dying out is meant in reference to constantly having rotting corpses to eat on. Whatever "fire" may be referring to here, it is clearly not depicting the "Hell" that Christianity teaches.

Again, if "Hell" was such an important topic, then why would God avoid making mention of it throughout the entire Old Testament? Why repeatedly warn of death as punishment if eternal torture was really the punishment? With the complete absence of "Hell" in the Old Testament, and the idea growing out of the imagery of a burning city dump south of Jerusalem called the Valley of Hinnom in the New Testament, isn't it quite clear that "Hell" is merely a doctrine that evolved over time?

Beyond that, what about the ethics of "Hell"? How can justice be served by inflicting infinite torture as punishment for finite infractions? How is being burned forever a befitting discipline for mere mortals? What loving father would ever do such a thing? Would any good judge ever issue such an unfair sentence?

Jesus supposedly said that "whosever believeth" in God's "only begotten Son" will "have everlasting life," and that "he that believeth not is condemned" (John 3:16,18). In Christian theology, that condemnation is "Hell." However, what about all the people who die having never heard about Jesus? What about people raised in different cultures far removed from Christianity, those who are indoctrinated with other views (through no fault of their own) to the point that that they cannot believe Christianity when presented with it? What about the many, many people throughout the ages who simply never had the opportunity to believe in Jesus?

Some Christians try to weasel out of that dilemma by suggesting that God is just and will deal fairly with those other people. They may even cite the judgment based on deeds that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 25:31-46. While that may seem to be a noble thought, it is flat-out contradicted by the very quote from Jesus listed above, that "he that believeth not is condemned" (John 3:18). If one doesn't believe, then he's condemned, with no recourse. Besides, there are other logical problems with this argument. Since it indicates that belief in Jesus really isn't necessary for salvation, then what's the point in evangelizing and sending out missionaries? That's commanded in the Bible, of course, but it would be rather pointless if it was true that God would judge everyone justly anyway and that believing in Jesus really isn't necessary for salvation!

In addition, what about other people, such as myself, who know the story of Jesus quite well but study Christianity and honestly conclude that it is without merit? With regard to us, as well as the aforementioned people who never heard of Jesus or who were already indoctrinated with another religious view, how could a loving God condemn such people to eternal agony when God himself has refused to show himself? If the all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing God of evangelical Christianity existed and wanted to have a relationship with every person, then there would be no question that he is real and Christianity is true because he would make it clear! Yet the majority of people in the world have not been convinced of such. Where is this Christian God who is supposedly reaching out to everyone?

Another common Christian response is to bring up the quote, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" (Romans 1:20). Thus, it is argued, nobody has an excuse for not knowing, because "the creation" around us is proof. But is it really? If this verse was true and the natural world we see clearly depicted the Christian God, then everyone who looks at nature would automatically be convinced of the Christian God! Yet, throughout the world there are varying cultures with different religious views, and many of those people look at the exact same nature and see evidence of their gods! And other people look at nature and see no evidence of any god at all! How could this be if "creation" was so clear regarding the Christian God? Obviously, this argument from "creation" is simply false.

Think about this. You were raised in a Christian culture that convinced you that Christianity is true, but in the same way people raised in a Muslim culture are convinced that Islam is true, and people raised in a Hindu culture are convinced that Hinduism is true, and so on and so forth. The fact is that people's religious beliefs are primarily dependent upon demographics instead of logic, reason and indisputable evidence.

You cannot believe Islam to be true because you were programmed to believe Christianity. But the opposite is also true: Those who are programmed to believe Islam simply cannot believe Christianity. Put yourself in their shoes. What if you had been raised and indoctrinated with Islam, and therefore you could not believe Christianity? That would be no fault of your own; it would simply be the result of being raised in that culture. Would it then be fair to torture you in "Hell" forever and ever and ever, with no mercy and no relief, simply because you did not believe something that you had no ability to believe? Do you not see the absurdity and injustice in that? Do you really believe that a righteous, loving God would do that to his creation?

You've heard about "cruel and unusual punishment." Indeed, when someone commits a crime, we expect them to be punished, but we expect the punishment to be in accordance with the crime. However, how could any criminal deserve being tortured forever and ever and ever? We are mere mortals with a very limited life-span, so how could anything one does be worthy of unending agony? Such torture would be "cruel and unusual punishment"! And, again, the idea of issuing such punishment for a lack of belief by those who can't believe is even more problematic.

Clearly, any God who would torture people like that would have to be sadistic and unjust, because only a sadistic monster could be so cruel! To call any such God "good" is ridiculous, and is an insult to all that is good.

Given that the unjust nature of the doctrine of "Hell" is incompatible with the idea of a loving and just God, and given the way the Christian doctrine of "Hell" evolved out of the imagery of a burning city dump outside Jerusalem, it becomes quite clear that "Hell" is not something revealed by God, but merely a morbid myth that developed over time and became useful for scaring people throughout the ages.

 

[TABA]

 

1 hour ago, Citsonga said:

 

In the meantime, it doesn't hurt to look into some of the background of the idea of Hell. The following is an excerpt from a letter I wrote a few years ago. I hope it can help you.

 

 

This is pure gold, in my opinion.  If you haven’t read Citsonga’s Extimony and ‘Letter to My Christian Parents’, take some time (a good bit of time!) to read them.  You won’t find a smarter, more informed, clearly written, heartfelt explanation of why he - and so many of us - became Ex-Christians.  It will be time well spent, believe me.

 

Note:  I received no financial compensation, merchandise, sexual favors or any other benefit from Citsonga in exchange for this endorsement.

[Insightful]

19 hours ago, TABA said:

Note:  I received no financial compensation, merchandise, sexual favors or any other benefit from Citsonga in exchange for this endorsement.

 

That was awesome, TABA.  Glad to hear Citsonga is not trading sexual favors to get his letters read.  Haha!  

 

Btw - his letter to his parents really is pretty spectacular.   

[florduh]

Panic attacks are treatable regardless of whether the trigger is religion, bears, zombies or alien abduction. Perhaps concentrating on the absurdity "Hell" isn't the most helpful therapy. Good luck.

[Castiel233]

Hell is a very sick idea , dreamed up by sadists.

It is not likely to be real.

Millions and millions and millions of people have never even heard of it throughout history. Are they to be sent there having never even been made aware of it.

Countless humans lived prior to Jesus( assuming he was real), countless lived prior to the Bible....are they to be doomed, doubtful. 

What fear is there of the hell of Allah, or any other god....none.

The chances of hell being real are very very low. 

But even if it is real, the Bible makes it clear that most people go there anyway, even if they believe that Jesus was the son of god, making salvation laughable. Satan certainly must have believed  in Jesus and he is still going to hell according to Christian theology. 

In standard Christian theology even children get sent to Hell, forever. Imagine worshipping a being that will fry an 4 year old child , forever. It is sick, sick, sick , sick. 

Shame on god and shame on his flock. 

Be kind to yourself and try and stop chasing shadows.

[♦ ficino ♦]

People sometimes make it seem that the Orthodox Church is not very focused on hell compared to Western denominations, but I've seen some pretty explicit paintings on walls of churches in Greece.

 

In line with Citsonga's excellent material, over on Debunking Christianity David Madison, an ex-pastor and trained biblical scholar, has posted a series on biblical contradictions. It's fascinating to look at how the texts as we have them contain evidence of how they were patched together with a big dose of invented events and sayings.

 

One of David Madison's articles is here, and you can find other ones on there:

 

http://www.debunking-christianity.com/2019/07/a-bible-book-of-blunders.html

[Myrkhoos]

19 hours ago, ficino said:

People sometimes make it seem that the Orthodox Church is not very focused on hell compared to Western denominations, but I've seen some pretty explicit paintings on walls of churches in Greece.

 

In line with Citsonga's excellent material, over on Debunking Christianity David Madison, an ex-pastor and trained biblical scholar, has posted a series on biblical contradictions. It's fascinating to look at how the texts as we have them contain evidence of how they were patched together with a big dose of invented events and sayings.

 

One of David Madison's articles is here, and you can find other ones on there:

 

http://www.debunking-christianity.com/2019/07/a-bible-book-of-blunders.html

It is not focused on Hell? That is a joke! It depends who you ask and what is their intention. Of course, many people prefer not to dwell on that, because it is an icky bussines, but the icons and teachings are pretty clear and universalism is, although not so clear in the history and canons of the Church, officially considered a heresy. Fear of eternal torment is considered a virtue in the holy fathers of the Church, at least some of them. It is even said than one cannot gain love without going through fear , first.  The official teaching is extremely concerned with the Devil and Hell. I mean that is why they think Christ incarnated, to save humans from Hell and the Devil. Exorcism are performed at every baptism. I do not know the truth of these claims for sure, but the Orthodox Church has at its core teaching the original sin, understood not as a guilt, but as an inclination to sin, the fallen nature, the devil, Hell, and all that. It is pretty graphic and explicit. I mean the core virtue of the monastics, considered the elite force of Orthodox Christianity, so to speak, or at least the more zealous and gifted and dedicated, is obedience. It is called holy obedience. I still get the goosebumps thinking about it. There are numerous stories of monks not obeying and then getting deluded. For as much as the Orthodox chastise the Pope for thinking he is the place of Christ, that is EXACT same words every spiritual father uses when talking about his disciples. And furthermore, some even think that if you just have faith, the spiritual father always speaks the will of God, so a kind of ex cathedra perfection of the Pope. Hypocrisy, I think. Dependece on the spiritual father is also considered a virtue. Of course, it is called spiritual dependence, but really. Of course there are explanations for this, but anyway. 

Of course, some Orthodox will bring up the case of St Silouan who was praying for the world and said God was love. The same St Silouan said that God sends wars to humans in order to make them humble, so they will be willing to accept God. As any expert brainwasher knows, first you have you crack the psyche of an individual before he receives your ideology. Many experiments, even in Romania, have been made during the Communist regime with this kind of way. 

I just, only recently could allow myself to feel the hatred towards them. Not anger, not those pretty feelings. Hatred towards these monstous practices and ideas and acts which I have done and have been done me. Not to much now geared towards people, but it is still there. Sometimes I just want to go and burn all their churches, and say HA! Where is your powerful God now? He just watches you suffer, like me, taking some kind of wicked pleasure and rewarding you for being enduring slaves. That , somehow, suffering purifies your sins. Yeah...I hatem them, all of them, and by them the ideas, the works, the clothes, all of this LIE! Even Jesus seemed to act with aggresive behaviour towards liars and arrogant , self deluded in their grandour people. I hate the lies in people heads. Kind of long, but anyway...Thanks for listening.

[Myrkhoos]

I do know that most of these feelings are rather trauma related, so I do take them to mean absolute truth, or intellectual truth, but hey do reflect, somewhat, my emotional truth, after what happened to me, and as such it is justified. But is not stuff I would use in a debate.    I do recognise that the clarity of my mind is clouded by the intensity of emotions, so I would not even ask anyone to believe what I am saying, I would enjoy kindness and compassion, but I would not force that upon anyone to give. 

[Dreamer]

On ‎7‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 5:21 AM, Citsonga said:

You cannot believe Islam to be true because you were programmed to believe Christianity. But the opposite is also true: Those who are programmed to believe Islam simply cannot believe Christianity. Put yourself in their shoes. What if you had been raised and indoctrinated with Islam, and therefore you could not believe Christianity? That would be no fault of your own; it would simply be the result of being raised in that culture. Would it then be fair to torture you in "Hell" forever and ever and ever, with no mercy and no relief, simply because you did not believe something that you had no ability to believe? Do you not see the absurdity and injustice in that? Do you really believe that a righteous, loving God would do that to his creation?

Thank you for that letter! I was questioning my decisions too, but your argument has more validity to it than anything my parents have said to me in my twenty years. Why do you think people believe in their god then if it is so unjust and unfair? 

[★ Citsonga ★]

41 minutes ago, Dreamer said:

Why do you think people believe in their god then if it is so unjust and unfair? 

 

Programming. People are conditioned by their environment to believe a certain way and most don't think deeply enough about it to see problematic implications. 

[Myrkhoos]

2 hours ago, Dreamer said:

Thank you for that letter! I was questioning my decisions too, but your argument has more validity to it than anything my parents have said to me in my twenty years. Why do you think people believe in their god then if it is so unjust and unfair? 

Well, it is one think to think that a god is unjust and unfair, and another to deny their existence. Take for example the Devil and his minions in christianity. You think they are unjust and unfair creatures, yet you still believe they exist.

 

Like in life also, I can think someone acts in an unfair way, like wall street tycoons getting giant bonuses from the US bailout program, but that does not mean they do not exist. What exists is not conditioned on what WE WANT to exist.

 

Second, the ideas and feelings about justice are usually taught. There is, maybe a biological component to it, as in the innate ability to reason and to perceive sizes and qualities and compare them, but a lot of it is taught. So, most of the time you DO NOT think that God is unfair and unjust, but that he is perfection, and everything else is unjust and unfair. Where do you think your ideas of fairness come from? Like why do you think killing an innocent is unfair, or rape is unfair? You have been taught that. If you believed, well, the wives of unbelievers are free game, as some muslim marauders thought, well then, ...you can guess what could have happened.

 

Your question could be reframed as, why do they believe in a God OF LOVE, with so many instances in the Bible and reality where  it seems to contradict what a lot of mean people mean by that word?

[Hole_In_My_Heart]

I don't know anything about the Orthodox Church, but if you actually look at the Bible, it says that Christians are saved by grace, not by adherence to laws, which lets you off the hook for not obeying a bunch of laws:

 

Romans 3:21 (NLT)
21 But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago.

 

Romans 6:14 (NIV)
For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace

 

Romans 7:6 (NLT)
Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit

 

Romans 8:2 (NIV)
through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death

 

Romans 10:4 (CEV)
But Christ makes the Law no longer necessary for those who become acceptable to God by faith

 

2 Corinthians 3:6 (CEV)
6 He makes us worthy to be the servants of his new agreement that comes from the Holy Spirit and not from a written Law. After all, the Law brings death, but the Spirit brings life.

 

Colossians 2:14 (NLV)
14 We had broken the Law many ways. Those sins were held against us by the Law. That Law had writings which said we were sinners. But now He has destroyed that writing by nailing it to the cross.

 

Galatians 2:21 (NIV)
21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!

 

Galatians 3:5 (NLT)
5 I ask you again, does God give you the Holy Spirit and work miracles among you because you obey the law? Of course not! It is because you believe the message you heard about Christ.

 

Galatians 3:24-25 (NLT)
24 Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. 25 And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian.

 

Galatians 5:18 (NIV)
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law

 

Ephesians 2:15 (NIRV)
Through his body on the cross, Christ put an end to the law with all its commands and rules

 

@@@@

 

If someone wanted to obey the laws anyways, would there be any harm in that? YES:

 

Galatians 3:10-13 (CEV)
10 Anyone who tries to please God by obeying the Law is under a curse. The Scriptures say, “Everyone who doesn’t obey everything in the Law is under a curse.” 11 No one can please God by obeying the Law. The Scriptures also say, “The people God accepts because of their faith will live.” 12 The Law isn’t based on faith. It promises life only to people who obey its commands. 13 But Christ rescued us from the Law’s curse, when he became a curse in our place

 

Galatians 5:4 (NIV)
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace

 

 

In addition, the Bible also shows how nonbelievers can still be saved: 

 

Romans 2:6-16 (NIV)
6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

 

[Myrkhoos]

7 hours ago, Hole_In_My_Heart said:

I don't know anything about the Orthodox Church, but if you actually look at the Bible, it says that Christians are saved by grace, not by adherence to laws, which lets you off the hook for not obeying a bunch of laws:

 

Romans 3:21 (NLT)
21 But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago.

 

Romans 6:14 (NIV)
For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace

 

Romans 7:6 (NLT)
Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit

 

Romans 8:2 (NIV)
through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death

 

Romans 10:4 (CEV)
But Christ makes the Law no longer necessary for those who become acceptable to God by faith

 

2 Corinthians 3:6 (CEV)
6 He makes us worthy to be the servants of his new agreement that comes from the Holy Spirit and not from a written Law. After all, the Law brings death, but the Spirit brings life.

 

Colossians 2:14 (NLV)
14 We had broken the Law many ways. Those sins were held against us by the Law. That Law had writings which said we were sinners. But now He has destroyed that writing by nailing it to the cross.

 

Galatians 2:21 (NIV)
21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!

 

Galatians 3:5 (NLT)
5 I ask you again, does God give you the Holy Spirit and work miracles among you because you obey the law? Of course not! It is because you believe the message you heard about Christ.

 

Galatians 3:24-25 (NLT)
24 Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. 25 And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian.

 

Galatians 5:18 (NIV)
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law

 

Ephesians 2:15 (NIRV)
Through his body on the cross, Christ put an end to the law with all its commands and rules

 

@@@@

 

If someone wanted to obey the laws anyways, would there be any harm in that? YES:

 

Galatians 3:10-13 (CEV)
10 Anyone who tries to please God by obeying the Law is under a curse. The Scriptures say, “Everyone who doesn’t obey everything in the Law is under a curse.” 11 No one can please God by obeying the Law. The Scriptures also say, “The people God accepts because of their faith will live.” 12 The Law isn’t based on faith. It promises life only to people who obey its commands. 13 But Christ rescued us from the Law’s curse, when he became a curse in our place

 

Galatians 5:4 (NIV)
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace

 

 

In addition, the Bible also shows how nonbelievers can still be saved: 

 

Romans 2:6-16 (NIV)
6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

 

Yeah, IF you look at the Bible closely, it can say everything and anything you want it to say. 

 

Thank you intention to help,  but the quoting the Bible does more harm than good. 

 

Wanted and started to write more, but just got angry so I stopped. As I request of you.

[LostinParis]

On 7/25/2019 at 11:57 PM, Myrkhoos said:

Where do you think your ideas of fairness come from? Like why do you think killing an innocent is unfair, or rape is unfair? You have been taught that.

 

Our Orthodox priest said that God gives us our moral compass.

 

He created humans, he wrote his moral code on our hearts, our sense of right and wrong come from him. Therefore god is culpable by the very moral standards of judgement he has given us. We are justified to judge him. If he sends me to hell then so be it. I am incapable of worshipping a narcissistic bully.

 

My ex-husband suffers from a religious form of OCD, it’s called Scrupulosity. He had a psychotic episode where he had panic attacks about hell and was hospitalised for a month.

 

It’s difficult to use logic while in the midst of a panic attack, as your brain is not functioning normally. The good news is that a panic attack doesn’t last long. Rather than trying to push the awful feelings away I try to simply wait for the feelings to pass. I try to observe my feelings from a distance and say things to myself like, “Oh here we go again, it’s just another panic attack”. In time, the intensity and frequency of my panic attacks diminished, as I trained my brain to stop being afraid of being afraid.

 

Are you afraid of the muslim hell? It sounds even worse than the Christian hell. No? Because you were not indoctrinated into Islam.

 

Humans tend to avoid pain more than we seek pleasure. Fear drives us.

[older]

On 7/17/2019 at 10:36 PM, Myrkhoos said:

What if he exists?

One way I deal with the "what if" question is to live life doing the best one can, being honest and kind, and to know that if there should be any judgment, a person will be judged on what he or she did, not on some other arbitrary or unreachable standard.

[sdelsolray]

On 7/29/2019 at 7:10 PM, Myrkhoos said:

...

Wanted and started to write more, but just got angry so I stopped. As I request of you.

 

Do you have any hobbies in addition to your stated interests of "reading, philosophy, foreign languages"?