Five Minute's Thought

[Merlinfmct87]

A friend once told me that the difference between a C and an A was 15 minutes extra work. Just a little extra effort to tie up the loose ends, give it a little more polish, and bring your work from average to sterling.

 

The same idea seems to apply - in force - in other aspects of life. Going the extra mile does indeed make all the difference.

 

So, tell me, why is it so few people actually go the extra mile? The threads I've stumbled across lately have shown a resounding lack of that extra dedication, that extra determination to push a little further.

 

The Christians have an excuse, of sorts, I suppose, at least they have a "I'm STUPID!" sign to alert us like the Foxworthy skit says. But it's something I'm seeing across the board - believer and apostate alike. So often people overcome the fantasy and myth of Christianity - an amazing and gut-wrenching feat, to say the least - and then... fall right into the pit of another one.

 

Why? Why do people assume that the only lie, the only illusion, the only myth out there is Religion - and politics, on a good day? That other elements of your life don't deserve the same critical, careful, reasoned examination?

 

Am I missing something? Asking too much? Am I flat out crazy? Or do I have a valid objection?

 

Am I the only one that sees this?

 

Merlin

[Christopher Carrion]

I think part of the problem Merlin is that it becomes indescribably tiring rehashing the same old arguments against the same old stock-blandishments:

 

"Well you were a never true Christian; your opinion doesn't count."

 

"Evolution is only a theory!!!" (squeals and stamps foot for emphasis),

 

"Just you wait 'till Judgement day....then you'll see!!! You'll all see!!! Muuahahahahahahaahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!"

 

etc.

 

I know that I personally find my brain fusing and switching over to a kind of "auto-pilot" whenever I see one of the above or their various permutations; it's just not worth my time or the energy I would expend pounding the keys to formulate a coherent counter-argument, especially when I've said what needed to be said a thousand times over.

[Merlinfmct87]

I think part of the problem Merlin is that it becomes indescribably tiring rehashing the same old arguments against the same old stock-blandishments:

 

"Well you were a never true Christian; your opinion doesn't count."

 

"Evolution is only a theory!!!" (squeals and stamps foot for emphasis),

 

"Just you wait 'till Judgement day....then you'll see!!! You'll all see!!! Muuahahahahahahaahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!"

 

etc.

 

I know that I personally find my brain fusing and switching over to a kind of "auto-pilot" whenever I see one of the above or their various permutations; it's just not worth my time or the energy I would expend pounding the keys to formulate a coherent counter-argument, especially when I've said what needed to be said a thousand times over.

 

Oh, god, yes. That's half the reason I don't bother with the debates anymore. I never learn anything, it's just the endless rerun of the same bad TV show. And it's something I've seen in myself. There's one thread here where some seagull Christian comes in and spouts the old line - it's not a religion, it's a relationship! Glory!

 

The only response I could think of was a Monty Python quote - "You're a silly person and I'm not going to interview you."

 

It's also something a good friend of mine was asking about. He was worried that he was going on and on about a meaningless topic - droning instead of actually discussing. I just told him that sometimes you have to take extra time to point out that the Emperor, Gawd save him, is buck naked, or that the sky really truly is blue... because sometimes people blind themselves to the painfully obvious. Something, just for the record, I MYSELF have done.

 

I also think you hit on another crux of the problem. An insight I've come across both in literature and from friends is how important how you define yourself truly is... and how destructive it can be to simply define yourself as 'not X.' It's a one-way path to the auto-pilot thinking you spoke of. Because, when you think about it, 'Un-Christian' gives you about as much information as 'Un-Birthday.' You eliminated one belief from the pantheon - or one day from the year.

 

364 1/4 other options out there. Many(if not most) of them bullshit in and of themselves. It is also defining yourself, in a way, by Christian morality - or the inverse of them. Not true independence.

 

Not true free, independent thought.

 

But that's a subject I've ranted on before, so I'll only touch on it briefly.

 

I found this quote. I wanted it to be in my main post, but I think I can stick it in here safely:

 

Myth itself has not been really vanquished and subjugated. It is always there, lurking in the dark and waiting for it's hour and opportunity. This hour comes as soon as the other binding forces of man's social life, for one reason or another, lose their strength and are no longer able to combat the demonic mythical powers.

(emphasis mine)

 

Merlin

[Christopher Carrion]

I think part of the problem Merlin is that it becomes indescribably tiring rehashing the same old arguments against the same old stock-blandishments:

 

"Well you were a never true Christian; your opinion doesn't count."

 

"Evolution is only a theory!!!" (squeals and stamps foot for emphasis),

 

"Just you wait 'till Judgement day....then you'll see!!! You'll all see!!! Muuahahahahahahaahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!"

 

etc.

 

I know that I personally find my brain fusing and switching over to a kind of "auto-pilot" whenever I see one of the above or their various permutations; it's just not worth my time or the energy I would expend pounding the keys to formulate a coherent counter-argument, especially when I've said what needed to be said a thousand times over.

 

Oh, god, yes. That's half the reason I don't bother with the debates anymore. I never learn anything, it's just the endless rerun of the same bad TV show. And it's something I've seen in myself. There's one thread here where some seagull Christian comes in and spouts the old line - it's not a religion, it's a relationship! Glory!

 

The only response I could think of was a Monty Python quote - "You're a silly person and I'm not going to interview you."

 

It's also something a good friend of mine was asking about. He was worried that he was going on and on about a meaningless topic - droning instead of actually discussing. I just told him that sometimes you have to take extra time to point out that the Emperor, Gawd save him, is buck naked, or that the sky really truly is blue... because sometimes people blind themselves to the painfully obvious. Something, just for the record, I MYSELF have done.

 

I also think you hit on another crux of the problem. An insight I've come across both in literature and from friends is how important how you define yourself truly is... and how destructive it can be to simply define yourself as 'not X.' It's a one-way path to the auto-pilot thinking you spoke of. Because, when you think about it, 'Un-Christian' gives you about as much information as 'Un-Birthday.' You eliminated one belief from the pantheon - or one day from the year.

 

364 1/4 other options out there. Many(if not most) of them bullshit in and of themselves. It is also defining yourself, in a way, by Christian morality - or the inverse of them. Not true independence.

 

Not true free, independent thought.

 

But that's a subject I've ranted on before, so I'll only touch on it briefly.

 

I found this quote. I wanted it to be in my main post, but I think I can stick it in here safely:

 

Myth itself has not been really vanquished and subjugated. It is always there, lurking in the dark and waiting for it's hour and opportunity. This hour comes as soon as the other binding forces of man's social life, for one reason or another, lose their strength and are no longer able to combat the demonic mythical powers.

(emphasis mine)

 

Merlin

 

 

There is also what I define as the "courtesy" problem. That is, I make a determined effort to enter into the various debates I have on this board and in the first-person to rationally (cut critically) consider every argument that is made, and to potentially adapt or alter my own perspectives based upon their veracity. No Christian I have ever met, including those who come to my yahweh-dammit door do me the courtesy they expect. I therefore see no reason why I should engage with them at all.

 

Yes, I think I've just come across the diarretic little string of sputem who keeps regurgitating the "Realtionship, not a religion," argument. The lack of critical examination the depolyment of such a pre-programmed, proscribed bit of doggerel implies is reason enough not to even respond to these people; no matter what you say to them, no matter your eloquence, reason or the evidence you bring to bear, they will leave the interaction through exactly the same way they came in; through the blinding white inferno of a portal marked "SAVED."

 

As for Monty Python quotes, the very best i can think of in just such a situation derives from what is possibly the funniest film ever created:

 

"Now, FUCK OFF!!!"

 

"Errr, how shall we fuck off Oh Lord?"

 

The thorny issue of self-definition is one I had, ironically, with regards to my self-professed addiction to this sight. I have never been Christian; I do not live in a rigidly Christian community (English, you see; we don't like extremism), yet I do feel a certain....gravity about this place, an almost compulsion if you will to return again and again to make my presence felt, my voice heard. Why do I do this? Is it really any different from the Christian fundamentalist travelling to church every day to get his fix of hellfire and brimstone? I'm not certain. The only difference I can see is that there are people here who are willing to challenge me on the perspectives by which I define myself; it is not just mindless self-reinforcement, or the kind of neurotic unity in hate one derives from a more religious gathering. People here are willing to say "Hang on a moment, that doesn't make sense," or more more accurately, "Shut the hell up; you're talking bullshit." Which I find to be very healthy, especially if you don;t get all emotional about it and ask why they think you're talking bullshit.

 

I still dislike the label of "atheist"; as you so aptly state it connotes non-adherence; not the replacement of one extreme ideological outlook with another. As such, it is not something one can legitimately define onesself as or by; it is merely a label of convenience, without behavioural or psychological tenet. Which I suppose is why it is much more humanistically (not to mention intellectually) viable; there are no in-built restrictions or behaviours stunting the capacity for exploration or expression.

 

I'd be very, very interested if any of the regular Christian posters reply to this thread; I would like to know their thoughts on the matter.

[Merlinfmct87]

There is also what I define as the "courtesy" problem. That is, I make a determined effort to enter into the various debates I have on this board and in the first-person to rationally (cut critically) consider every argument that is made, and to potentially adapt or alter my own perspectives based upon their veracity. No Christian I have ever met, including those who come to my yahweh-dammit door do me the courtesy they expect. I therefore see no reason why I should engage with them at all.

 

Yes, exactly. Something I am intimately familiar with. My last gf was guilty of this in spades.

 

Yes, I think I've just come across the diarretic little string of sputem who keeps regurgitating the "Realtionship, not a religion," argument. The lack of critical examination the depolyment of such a pre-programmed, proscribed bit of doggerel implies is reason enough not to even respond to these people; no matter what you say to them, no matter your eloquence, reason or the evidence you bring to bear, they will leave the interaction through exactly the same way they came in; through the blinding white inferno of a portal marked "SAVED."

 

Another thing I'm intimately familiar with. It goes in one ear and out the other.

 

I think 'contempt for heretical thoughts' sums it up best. Smiling superiority.

 

As for Monty Python quotes, the very best i can think of in just such a situation derives from what is possibly the funniest film ever created:

 

"Now, FUCK OFF!!!"

 

"Errr, how shall we fuck off Oh Lord?"

 

Always look on the bright side of life...

 

Love that movie. A good friend of mine pointed me out to that one in particular and I about needed a surgery to correct the many bones I dislocated while laughing. I was also particularly heartened to find some freethought memes snuck in there as well.

 

There's hope for us yet!

 

The thorny issue of self-definition is one I had, ironically, with regards to my self-professed addiction to this sight. I have never been Christian; I do not live in a rigidly Christian community (English, you see; we don't like extremism), yet I do feel a certain....gravity about this place, an almost compulsion if you will to return again and again to make my presence felt, my voice heard. Why do I do this? Is it really any different from the Christian fundamentalist travelling to church every day to get his fix of hellfire and brimstone? I'm not certain. The only difference I can see is that there are people here who are willing to challenge me on the perspectives by which I define myself; it is not just mindless self-reinforcement, or the kind of neurotic unity in hate one derives from a more religious gathering. People here are willing to say "Hang on a moment, that doesn't make sense," or more more accurately, "Shut the hell up; you're talking bullshit." Which I find to be very healthy, especially if you don;t get all emotional about it and ask why they think you're talking bullshit.

 

I still dislike the label of "atheist"; as you so aptly state it connotes non-adherence; not the replacement of one extreme ideological outlook with another. As such, it is not something one can legitimately define onesself as or by; it is merely a label of convenience, without behavioural or psychological tenet. Which I suppose is why it is much more humanistically (not to mention intellectually) viable; there are no in-built restrictions or behaviours stunting the capacity for exploration or expression.

 

I'd be very, very interested if any of the regular Christian posters reply to this thread; I would like to know their thoughts on the matter.

 

Your thoughts and mine are one here - I myself never believed(parents were freethinkers when they had me, thank the lord!) so my continued presence here has been... interesting. Often times I've been the only person in the room who 'didn't get the joke' shall we say.

 

The lack of context is a blessing and a curse - a blessing, in the sense that I don't have to fight off the 'hell' meme in the slightest, and a curse in the sense that the people I associate and hang out with all have a common experience/context/touchstone I distinctly lack.

 

And, once again, you hit the nail on the head with what makes this place not a church - it's not reinforcement of old memes, it's trial by fire of them. Nothing is taken on faith... at least, under ideal circumstances it is... it has slipped into 'reinforcement' mode(of some distinctly bad ideas) now and then, which is exactly what this thead is in protest of.

 

I don't think it's too much to ask that we define ourselves as - and therefor reach and strive for - something independent, seperate, and, above all else, above myth in any form!

 

To revise the Beatles, all you need is truth. Succumbing to illusion and lies is, to me, cowardice(another thread and another rant entirely).

 

In any case, stick around Mr. rotting meat Sir. You're very welcome here, for my part at least. I have a very good friend(so much so that I call him a brother) in Yorkshire, so I know exactly of what you speak when you refer to a weak Christian force. Go England! One of these days us yanks'll catch up.

 

I swear, sometimes I wonder why we left in the first place.

 

Merlin

[pandora]

Merlin-- maybe most of us just don't post very often on here about stuff that doesn't pertain to religion.

 

But I see your point. I have seen some very narrowminded views from apostates on here, just like the more conservative Christians. I think letting go of religion is just the beginning to reshaping perspectives in all areas of life. It takes time, experience, and maturity to be able to apply what you learned from loving and then leaving Christianity to other parts of your life. It doesn't really frustate me because we're all at different points in our lives... people are generally doing what they need to do to move on.

 

I don't debate (and I never did much anyway) because I am an all or nothing type of person. If I know I can't do an "A" job, then I will just let it be and serve as entertainment instead.

[Checkmate]

..............

The Christians have an excuse, of sorts, I suppose, at least they have a "I'm STUPID!" sign to alert us like the Foxworthy skit says..........

Point of correction. The "Here's Your Sign" comedy routine belongs to BILL ENGVALL, not Jeff Foxworthy. Jeff has the "You Might Be A Redneck" bit.

 

Signed,

 

Perfectionist Grinch

[Asimov]

A friend once told me that the difference between a C and an A was 15 minutes extra work. Just a little extra effort to tie up the loose ends, give it a little more polish, and bring your work from average to sterling.

 

The same idea seems to apply - in force - in other aspects of life. Going the extra mile does indeed make all the difference.

 

So, tell me, why is it so few people actually go the extra mile? The threads I've stumbled across lately have shown a resounding lack of that extra dedication, that extra determination to push a little further.

 

The Christians have an excuse, of sorts, I suppose, at least they have a "I'm STUPID!" sign to alert us like the Foxworthy skit says. But it's something I'm seeing across the board - believer and apostate alike. So often people overcome the fantasy and myth of Christianity - an amazing and gut-wrenching feat, to say the least - and then... fall right into the pit of another one.

 

Why? Why do people assume that the only lie, the only illusion, the only myth out there is Religion - and politics, on a good day? That other elements of your life don't deserve the same critical, careful, reasoned examination?

 

Am I missing something? Asking too much? Am I flat out crazy? Or do I have a valid objection?

 

Am I the only one that sees this?

 

Merlin

 

Who says we don't?

[AtheistMommy]

I think part of the problem Merlin is that it becomes indescribably tiring rehashing the same old arguments against the same old stock-blandishments:

 

"Well you were a never true Christian; your opinion doesn't count."

 

"Evolution is only a theory!!!" (squeals and stamps foot for emphasis),

 

"Just you wait 'till Judgement day....then you'll see!!! You'll all see!!! Muuahahahahahahaahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!"

 

etc.

 

I know that I personally find my brain fusing and switching over to a kind of "auto-pilot" whenever I see one of the above or their various permutations; it's just not worth my time or the energy I would expend pounding the keys to formulate a coherent counter-argument, especially when I've said what needed to be said a thousand times over.

 

I totally agree. Being a parent I repeat myself often; I still don't like it. I run into the same mind boggling repeated Christian aruments. It's only when I run into the half opened, well read, skeptic, and liberal christian that I find a good debate and often food for thought. The majority of people aren't into knowing about their religion, they just want to believe and if you aren't for them, you're against them and that is a major threat to their way of life.

[Amethyst]

The reason I don't get into many debates anymore is because I've realized how futile it is, especially debating with a fundy whose mind is so closed to anyone else's opinion except their own. A debate where neither side is likely to learn anything from it isn't really a debate, it's just bickering.

[Merlinfmct87]

Merlin-- maybe most of us just don't post very often on here about stuff that doesn't pertain to religion.

 

But I see your point. I have seen some very narrowminded views from apostates on here, just like the more conservative Christians. I think letting go of religion is just the beginning to reshaping perspectives in all areas of life. It takes time, experience, and maturity to be able to apply what you learned from loving and then leaving Christianity to other parts of your life. It doesn't really frustate me because we're all at different points in our lives... people are generally doing what they need to do to move on.

 

I don't debate (and I never did much anyway) because I am an all or nothing type of person. If I know I can't do an "A" job, then I will just let it be and serve as entertainment instead.

(emphasis mine)

 

You'll forgive me, I hope, for highlighting your post, here, but it was truly the crux of my point here. deconversion is not the end, it's just the beginning.

 

It's not the last, final answer. It's the first, introductory question.. And each answer spawns two more unknows.

 

 

Point of correction. The "Here's Your Sign" comedy routine belongs to BILL ENGVALL, not Jeff Foxworthy. Jeff has the "You Might Be A Redneck" bit.

 

Signed,

 

Perfectionist Grinch

 

Are you sure? I could have sworn it was Jeff... maybe he did a cover. It was years and years and years ago.

 

Oy, you're making me sound old.

 

Who says we don't?

 

Uhm... me?

 

I totally agree. Being a parent I repeat myself often; I still don't like it. I run into the same mind boggling repeated Christian aruments. It's only when I run into the half opened, well read, skeptic, and liberal christian that I find a good debate and often food for thought. The majority of people aren't into knowing about their religion, they just want to believe and if you aren't for them, you're against them and that is a major threat to their way of life.

 

Exactly. The mental auto-pilot Christopher Carrion referred to earlier is very easy to slip into when you deal with nutjobs for too long.... the abyss stares back, after all.

 

The reason I don't get into many debates anymore is because I've realized how futile it is, especially debating with a fundy whose mind is so closed to anyone else's opinion except their own. A debate where neither side is likely to learn anything from it isn't really a debate, it's just bickering.

 

I hear you, Amethyst, I really do. I don't disagree, either. That is exactly why I don't bother anymore, after all.

 

Merlin

[chefranden]

A friend once told me that the difference between a C and an A was 15 minutes extra work. Just a little extra effort to tie up the loose ends, give it a little more polish, and bring your work from average to sterling.

 

The same idea seems to apply - in force - in other aspects of life. Going the extra mile does indeed make all the difference.

 

So, tell me, why is it so few people actually go the extra mile? The threads I've stumbled across lately have shown a resounding lack of that extra dedication, that extra determination to push a little further.

 

The Christians have an excuse, of sorts, I suppose, at least they have a "I'm STUPID!" sign to alert us like the Foxworthy skit says. But it's something I'm seeing across the board - believer and apostate alike. So often people overcome the fantasy and myth of Christianity - an amazing and gut-wrenching feat, to say the least - and then... fall right into the pit of another one.

 

Why? Why do people assume that the only lie, the only illusion, the only myth out there is Religion - and politics, on a good day? That other elements of your life don't deserve the same critical, careful, reasoned examination?

 

Am I missing something? Asking too much? Am I flat out crazy? Or do I have a valid objection?

 

Am I the only one that sees this?

 

Merlin

 

No, you have a valid objection.

[Godless Wonder]

A friend once told me that the difference between a C and an A was 15 minutes extra work.

I must've been out of school too long, plus, I guess on this site... I just assumed C meant Christian and A meant Atheist.

 

Fifteen minutes, eh? It kind of does seem like it should be that simple.

[Merlinfmct87]

A friend once told me that the difference between a C and an A was 15 minutes extra work.

I must've been out of school too long, plus, I guess on this site... I just assumed C meant Christian and A meant Atheist.

 

Fifteen minutes, eh? It kind of does seem like it should be that simple.

 

[Checkmate]

Are you sure? I could have sworn it was Jeff... maybe he did a cover. It was years and years and years ago.

 

Oy, you're making me sound old.

Absolutely positive. I must listen to Bill Engvall, Jeff Foxworthy, Larry the Cable Guy and Ron "Tater Salad" White at LEAST once a week. I KNOW their routines and can quote their bits verbatim. "Get 'er dun!"

 

P.S. - If YOU are "old", then I am fucking ancient!

[Asimov]

Who says we don't?

 

Uhm... me?

 

What gives you that impression?

 

Do you have any specific examples rather than a base generalization?

 

 

 

Here's a broader brush.

[Onyx]

Merlin, I don't care about entering into a debate.

If I see a idiotic Christian spouting, his attitude will be made fun of in my satires.

God, I love Monty Python

 

Ni! Ni! NI!

 

Merlin, your posts are very intelligent and much needed.

I'm just too tired to make witty and brainy posts anymore.

But don't worry, KIFC lovers!

Tomorrow is the day of the new satire.

 

After that, will be more satire.

[Checkmate]

I'm with SillyGeezer. Why argue when you can ridicule with sarcasm, satire and pathos?

 

Debating, for those who are taking notes, is NOT about "winning" an argument, nor about changing the mind of your opponent. The purpose of a debate is to present both sides of the issue, hopefully in a cogent fashion, so that those who are VIEWING/LISTENING and who are "on the fence", can make up THEIR minds which side is "right".

 

If you've been going into debates with the hope of changing your opponent's mind, then no wonder you're angry and frustrated! THAT is NEVER going to happen! Your opponent is no more going to change his/her position than you are yours. Give it up.

 

Besides which, people are just fucking stupid. And I'm not just talking about religious people, I mean ALL people. No matter what you say to people, no matter how well you argue and present your case, people will continue doing stupid shit to themselves UNTIL AFTER disaster strikes.

 

How many people are warned NOT to drink and drive? Do they listen? Not until AFTER they've crashed and killed someone. (Preferably themselves, stupid mother fuckers.)

 

How many people heed the warnings about cigarette smoking? Not until a lung has been removed.

 

When do people listen to warnings about sexual promiscuity? AFTER they get STDs and abortions, and not one second before.

 

And in each case these brain donors look genuinely surprised when bad shit happens to them. As if they had NEVER been warned.

 

Religious believers are NO different than the rest of humanity. People are fucking stupid and they won't listen to reason or common sense until AFTER disaster strikes THEM.

 

And THAT is why I don't bother telling anyone shit anymore. People are fucking stupid. They NEVER listen. They always believe that THEY are the exception to the rules. That THEY are somehow "special". The One who can get away with it. Have their cake and eat it too. And then when shit blows up in their faces, they whine and cry and lament that NO ONE WARNED THEM! "Why, oh WHY, has this horrid thing happened to ME?!?!"

 

Fuck people. Stupid mother fuckers. Not my responsibility.

[spamandham]

So, tell me, why is it so few people actually go the extra mile?

 

Because we're all a bunch of lazy hairless apes driven to conserve energy due to our evolutionary history.

[Asimov]

I'm with SillyGeezer. Why argue when you can ridicule with sarcasm, satire and pathos?

 

I think a healthy dose of ridicule is generally needed in many instances. However, I'm also of the mind that intellectual discussion can be had with many Christians. Yes, folks, it's happened before.

[Merlinfmct87]

What gives you that impression?

 

Do you have any specific examples rather than a base generalization?

 

 

 

Here's a broader brush.

 

Well, lesse.

 

First off, the 'relationship' thread just so we are on the same page is this one.

 

On the subject of apostates/non-believers, there's this thread, in which "I don't know" is branded irrational and incoherent. What would Socrates say, I wonder?

 

Then there's This thread, in which antisemitisism is nothing more than standing up for your own rights in the first place.

 

This one is one I come across a lot - people utterly confounded as to why deeply religious people still commit brutal crimes, or simply fly in the face of their creed. It's been my experience(and that is limited, I'm hardly old and wise) that it is the people that cling to the cross the most who are the ones that so desperately need a no-questions-asked get out of jail free card. This is one, just for the record, you, yourself caught, so give yourself a pat on the back.

 

Finally, maybe I should be ironic and end this list with your posts in this very thread, Asimov. You may have objections to what I am saying, you may believe that what I am posting about simply does not happen here. Fine and dandy. But I am hardly painting with a broad brush. That is quite obviously not the case. Painting with a broad brush would be saying that there isn't one coherent thought on the board. Or that atheists are by definition incapable of thinking things through rationally.

 

That is not what this thread is about. Nor is that what I'm doing. NOR is it what I believe. It's about people being hypocrites about their own conduct, about people acting before they think, and not using their own skulls to stop for five fucking minutes and say 'gee, what could I have missed...?'

 

If you think that is painting with a broad brush, you need to look up exactly what that means. Then try looking at your own actions and conduct before you assume I'm just some prick shooting his mouth off.

 

Five minutes isn't that long. Stepping away, taking a deep breath, and looking at things from a calm, logical perspective can do wonders.

 

Then again, I shouldn't have to explain this, should I?

 

I'm with SillyGeezer. Why argue when you can ridicule with sarcasm, satire and pathos?

 

Debating, for those who are taking notes, is NOT about "winning" an argument, nor about changing the mind of your opponent. The purpose of a debate is to present both sides of the issue, hopefully in a cogent fashion, so that those who are VIEWING/LISTENING and who are "on the fence", can make up THEIR minds which side is "right".

 

If you've been going into debates with the hope of changing your opponent's mind, then no wonder you're angry and frustrated! THAT is NEVER going to happen! Your opponent is no more going to change his/her position than you are yours. Give it up.

 

Besides which, people are just fucking stupid. And I'm not just talking about religious people, I mean ALL people. No matter what you say to people, no matter how well you argue and present your case, people will continue doing stupid shit to themselves UNTIL AFTER disaster strikes.

 

How many people are warned NOT to drink and drive? Do they listen? Not until AFTER they've crashed and killed someone. (Preferably themselves, stupid mother fuckers.)

 

How many people heed the warnings about cigarette smoking? Not until a lung has been removed.

 

When do people listen to warnings about sexual promiscuity? AFTER they get STDs and abortions, and not one second before.

 

And in each case these brain donors look genuinely surprised when bad shit happens to them. As if they had NEVER been warned.

 

Religious believers are NO different than the rest of humanity. People are fucking stupid and they won't listen to reason or common sense until AFTER disaster strikes THEM.

 

And THAT is why I don't bother telling anyone shit anymore. People are fucking stupid. They NEVER listen. They always believe that THEY are the exception to the rules. That THEY are somehow "special". The One who can get away with it. Have their cake and eat it too. And then when shit blows up in their faces, they whine and cry and lament that NO ONE WARNED THEM! "Why, oh WHY, has this horrid thing happened to ME?!?!"

 

Fuck people. Stupid mother fuckers. Not my responsibility.

 

I actually do go into debates to change people's minds. If people were as lock-jawed in their ways as you say, this site simply would not exist - it would just be C's and A's, as Godless Wonder put it.

 

People can change. You just need to step away from the rabid whackjobs and chat with people who are willing to admit they are wrong, which is why I try to debate and discuss my thoughts and views with people who, as I said, can admit when they are wrong - and point out when I am wrong.

 

As for warnings, I must correct you, there. That's something I myself have done many a time. I listen. Not always. I have made some real beautiful fuck-ups(boy, lemmie tell ya). But I've avoided quite a few, as well.

 

So, tell me, why is it so few people actually go the extra mile?

 

Because we're all a bunch of lazy hairless apes driven to conserve energy due to our evolutionary history.

 

One has to wonder where workaholics came from then.

 

Merlin

[Amethyst]

People can change. You just need to step away from the rabid whackjobs and chat with people who are willing to admit they are wrong, which is why I try to debate and discuss my thoughts and views with people who, as I said, can admit when they are wrong - and point out when I am wrong.

 

Good point. That is why I avoid debating with fundies.

[pitchu]

What I see, and it isn't just here at Ex-C, it's pretty much everywhere, is inconsistency in applying fundamental principles across the board. I see it less here, because people generally are more clear-thinking here. Maybe that's why it hurts more when it happens here. Sure hurts me more, anyway.

 

I'm sure everybody's guilty of it in one arena or another -- I certainly see it in myself -- but it would be great if we could all take the extra few minutes to present our views in a way that shows we're truly as open-minded as we like to think we are. And it would be helpful if we saw "support of Ex-Christians" as, in part, pointing out to one another, with kindness and generosity of spirit, flaws in rational thinking when we notice them. Being free of xianity doesn't guarantee being free from inconsistency in what one believes and it doesn't protect one from being incautious in spouting off about convictions ill-fitting a freethinker.

 

If a group of people as bright and courageous as we are isn't dedicated to helping each other to fully overcome clinging to contradictory positions, mutually exclusive beliefs, double standards, refusal to forfeit baseless biases, needless heartlessness and cavalier thoughtless judgments, we might as well go back to church, where that stuff is not only tolerated, it's worshipped.

 

My 2 cents.

[AtheistMommy]

What I see, and it isn't just here at Ex-C, it's pretty much everywhere, is inconsistency in applying fundamental principles across the board. I see it less here, because people generally are more clear-thinking here. Maybe that's why it hurts more when it happens here. Sure hurts me more, anyway.

 

I'm sure everybody's guilty of it in one arena or another -- I certainly see it in myself -- but it would be great if we could all take the extra few minutes to present our views in a way that shows we're truly as open-minded as we like to think we are. And it would be helpful if we saw "support of Ex-Christians" as, in part, pointing out to one another, with kindness and generosity of spirit, flaws in rational thinking when we notice them. Being free of xianity doesn't guarantee being free from inconsistency in what one believes and it doesn't protect one from being incautious in spouting off about convictions ill-fitting a freethinker.

 

If a group of people as bright and courageous as we are isn't dedicated to helping each other to fully overcome clinging to contradictory positions, mutually exclusive beliefs, double standards, refusal to forfeit baseless biases, needless heartlessness and cavalier thoughtless judgments, we might as well go back to church, where that stuff is not only tolerated, it's worshipped.

 

My 2 cents.

 

Maybe what you're actually seeing has less to do with beliefs and more to do with just being human. Human nature.

[Vigile]

That is not what this thread is about. Nor is that what I'm doing. NOR is it what I believe. It's about people being hypocrites about their own conduct, about people acting before they think, and not using their own skulls to stop for five fucking minutes and say 'gee, what could I have missed...?'

 

I'm sorry Merlin but reading through your IP and your responses here you just sound like a cross between a school marm and a judgemental prick to me. You seem to think that if others disagree with your position that they are not putting enough thought into their points. Get over yourself. You are not the board police.