Onyx Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 The Laughing Man August 20th 2003 11:46 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Recent hate crimes against Christians Church worker beaten for 'anti-gay' sermon? A pastor who preached against homosexuality believes his sermon was the motive for three men who assaulted his church's part-time janitor. Pastor Paul Endrei of the Church on the Rise in Westlake, Ohio, told the Cleveland Plain Dealer newspaper his Aug. 10 message was about the Rev. Gene Robinson, who became the first openly homosexual Episcopalian confirmed as a bishop. The janitor, Richard Bilski, 49, told police three men beat him Sunday morning outside the nondenominational church after demanding to know when the pastor would arrive, the Cleveland paper said. As the men fled, Bilski said, one yelled, "This is a message for Pastor Paul." Endrei said the point of his Sunday sermon was "we love the homosexual, but we hate the sin." "I told the congregation, 'The Gospel according to Gene Robinson is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ,' " he told the Plain Dealer. Bilski also suspects the sermon was the motive for the attack. The Cleveland paper quoted a former host of a gay-themed radio talk show, who contended sermons like Endrei's can fuel hate crimes. "If they don't preach tolerance, they are preaching violence," Harris told the paper. Bilski said the men confronted him as he took out the trash at about 6:45 a.m. The janitor reported he was attacked after he told them he didn't know what time Endrei would arrive, suffering cuts and bruises to his face, arms, hands and ribs. "I did nothing against anybody, and I'm the one in the middle of this," Bilski said, according to the Plain Dealer. On Aug. 7, a Kenyan Anglican bishop was attacked on a London street by two Church of England colleagues for opposing Robinson's appointment, according to the East African Standard of Nairobi. The confrontation turned to blows before passersby came to the rescue of Bishop Simon Oketch who was attending an international seminar in the city. An Episcopal vicar in Graham, Texas, near Fort Worth, reported his church was vandalized and a portion set ablaze Aug. 5 in an apparent reaction to the congregation's defense of traditional orthodoxy. Police said their only lead is writing on the wall: "God and Jesus love Homosexuals." In a letter, Rev. Scott Wooten said, "The thought of an active persecution crossed my mind when I decided to take a stand against biblical revisionists, but it turned very personal when it hit my church." Just more examples of the intolerance of "tolerance." juliod August 20th 2003 11:55 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: On Aug. 7, a Kenyan Anglican bishop was attacked on a London street by two Church of England colleagues for opposing Robinson's appointment, according to the East African Standard of Nairobi. Tut, tut. Bishops fighting in the streets. :teeth: It's funny that 2 of the three incidents apparently involved other theists, while the third may or may not have. Why can't theists just agree to allow each other to have their own doctrine and leave them alone? Using violence in support of "tolerance" is absurd. DanZ BeHereNow August 20th 2003 12:24 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Just more examples of the intolerance of "tolerance." What's that supposed to mean? Obviously the culprits in question are not very tolerant, so this isn't an example of intolerant tolerance. $cirisme August 20th 2003 12:26 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When I first saw the thread title, I thought it said "Recent hate cirisme against Christians" /me needs sleep :zzz: The Laughing Man August 20th 2003 01:07 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Today @ 12:24 PM post located here BeHereNow: What's that supposed to mean? Obviously the culprits in question are not very tolerant, so this isn't an example of intolerant tolerance. Actually, it is, as the culprits no doubt want Christians to tolerate homosexuality. "Be tolerant of homosexuality or we'll hurt you!" :ahem: NSMinistries August 20th 2003 01:12 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Jinx72: Actually, it is, as the culprits no doubt want Christians to tolerate homosexuality. "Be tolerant of homosexuality or we'll hurt you!" :ahem: Now why is it nobody else wants to think of it that way... :teeth: edited for spelling... BeHereNow August 20th 2003 01:12 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Jinx72: Actually, it is, as the culprits no doubt want Christians to tolerate homosexuality. "Be tolerant of homosexuality or we'll hurt you!" :ahem: That doesn't make them tolerant, though, does it? Unless, of course, their slogan is "Love the Christian, hate the Christianity." :uhoh: The Laughing Man August 20th 2003 01:25 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: That doesn't make them tolerant, though, does it? Sure it does. They are tolerant of homosexuality, so they are tolerant. Quote: Unless, of course, their slogan is "Love the Christian, hate the Christianity." Beating them up does not equate to loving them. Pilgrim August 20th 2003 01:45 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BHN, you really don't understand what he means when he says "the intolerance of tolerance?" Jin-Roh August 20th 2003 04:54 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And of course, there is no uproar when Christians are the victims... :brood: Vorkosigan August 20th 2003 07:19 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: And of course, there is no uproar when Christians are the victims... You mean, when hate-preachers are the victims. The uproar properly occurs when people who preach love and tolerance (any of religious stance) are abused. Vorkosigan Chuck Lee August 20th 2003 07:22 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Vorkosigan: You mean, when hate-preachers are the victims. Vorkosigan You mean the JANITOR???! I think maybe you should read the article again... juliod August 20th 2003 09:17 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: And of course, there is no uproar when Christians are the victims... Really? How is it that we know of these cases, if they are covered up? Those were pretty trivial cases. Why do you expect massive coverage? DanZ AtheistArchon August 20th 2003 10:04 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Beating them up does not equate to loving them. - Agape, man! Agape! Epoetker August 20th 2003 10:27 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gay rep: Quote: If they don't preach tolerance, they are preaching violence. Vork: Quote: You mean, when hate-preachers are the victims. In other words, tolerate our deviant behavior or we'll be forced to beat you up in order to send a message. No, sorry. If the church spoke against, say, people who downloaded child porn, or those who divorce repeatedly, or anything like that, they wouldn't have been forced through this. Vork just disrespects the right of people to associate with whom they choose. Jin-Roh August 20th 2003 10:53 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Today @ 07:17 PM post located here juliod: Really? How is it that we know of these cases, if they are covered up? Those were pretty trivial cases. Why do you expect massive coverage? DanZ I never asserted that they where "covered up." I'm merely pointing out that Hate Crimes against Gays or Blacks etc etc are usually met with strong national censure (as it should), but things things like this are usually overlooked. Page 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyx Posted May 12, 2005 Author Share Posted May 12, 2005 wienerdog August 21st 2003 01:45 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I hate to be a killjoy (well, that's just not true) but this whole case seems pretty shoddy to me. A janitor at a church gets beaten up and the pastor thinks it's a direct result of his sermons? Unless more evidence surfaces, it sounds to me like the pastor is just being paranoid. The Laughing Man August 21st 2003 01:54 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Yesterday @ 07:19 PM post located here Vorkosigan: You mean, when hate-preachers are the victims. The uproar properly occurs when people who preach love and tolerance (any of religious stance) are abused. Um, whatever, Vork. Endrei said the point of his Sunday sermon was "we love the homosexual, but we hate the sin." Yep. Lots of hate there. :ahem: :dunce: The Laughing Man August 21st 2003 01:57 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Today @ 01:45 AM post located here wienerdog: I hate to be a killjoy (well, that's just not true) but this whole case seems pretty shoddy to me. A janitor at a church gets beaten up and the pastor thinks it's a direct result of his sermons? Unless more evidence surfaces, it sounds to me like the pastor is just being paranoid. As the men fled, Bilski said, one yelled, "This is a message for Pastor Paul." Yep, he's definitely paranoid. :whack: :no: BeHereNow August 21st 2003 11:16 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Pilgrim: BHN, you really don't understand what he means when he says "the intolerance of tolerance?" Yes, of course I understand. I was simply pointing out the absurdity therein. Obviously, someone is not very tolerant if they go around beating people up. Jinx labelled them tolerant, against his better judgement, in order to be able to make a quip and imply a generalization about "tolerant" people i.e. homosexual sympathizers. Just because you are tolerant of gays does not mean you are a tolerant person, as demonstrated perfectly in the story. :bunny: :saywhat: Pilgrim August 21st 2003 12:19 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think you missed his point though, which AFAICS is that sometime people are very hypocritical in regards to tolerance. They want you to tolerate everything while at the same time refusing to tolerate your point of view. For instance, Jinx would argue that in the name of tolerance many references to Christianity are removed from schools while in the name of tolerance references to other relgions are encouarged. It's a bit of a paradox. juliod August 21st 2003 01:08 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: They want you to tolerate everything while at the same time refusing to tolerate your point of view. I'm not aware of any such people, and I don't think it applies to this case (or these cases). Two of the cases mentioned were christian-on-christian, and so are really just typical cases of schism leading to violence. The other one may also have been, since it is doubtful that anyone outside the congregation would even have known what the relevant sermons were about. Violence in the name of tolerance is absurd, obviously. But I don't hear anyone publically making such a case, so I can't examine their arguments. We don't have any reason to think that the perpetrators of the violence could be described as tolerant in any sense of the word. It is possible that the perpetrators were simply using the gay issue as a pretext for anti-clerical violence unrelated to the specific issue. It is also possible that the violence was committed by homosexuals, or their supporters, who felt threatened, and took preemptive action. This has recently been raised to the level of national policy. In any case, that would be violence motivated by self-interest rather than tolerance. So, the point remains, in spite of conservative attempts to reverse the moral logic, that tolerance is good, and intolerance is bad. DanZ Pilgrim August 21st 2003 01:22 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I agree with the last sentance totally, except for the expected and un reasonable jab at all conservatism. (and yes I would have pointed it out had it been a jab at libs as well) What I don't agree with is the idea that I have personally seen that goes like this "Be tolerant or we will smack you into tolerance." which seems to me to be at total odds with the message of tolerance. Of course you argue that that is not a true representation of what real practitioners of tolerance want. true enough, but how come that same argument doesn't fly when a Christian uses it? juliod August 21st 2003 02:58 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: I have personally seen that goes like this "Be tolerant or we will smack you into tolerance." which seems to me to be at total odds with the message of tolerance. What you have seen is a controller posing as a tolerator. Quote: Of course you argue that that is not a true representation of what real practitioners of tolerance want. true enough, but how come that same argument doesn't fly when a Christian uses it? Are you refering to the No True Scotsman fallacy? It's completely different. We don't have any information that the perpetrators of the violence were themselves tolerant of anything. We only know what they oppose. If someone were to say "Supporters of homosexuality are all nonviolent" then you might come back with "But what about those cases? They were violent." If I said "Ah, but those people were No True supporters of homosexuality" then I would have used the fallacy. The NTS fallacy happens when christians make unsupportable claims about the behavior of christians. BTW: Quote: except for the expected and un reasonable jab at all conservatism. Did I say anything about all conservatives? It is a recognizable conservative POV that tolerance of gays, feminists, and minorities is a bad thing. DanZ Pilgrim August 21st 2003 03:21 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You did say something about all conservatives and their attempts to "reverse" moral logic. that's what I was talking about. All the other issues you raised in regards to the conservative "POV" are generalizations as well but not really part of the conversation. All though I will say it tool Republican presidents to get an African American Supreme Court Justice and an African American woman on the cabinet. And it was the republican south that championed civil rights in the beginning not the democratic south. Points of view change, individuals change. Polarized language never does though, it simply makes people polarized and defensive and really doesn't change any one's mind. But it is fun so there is that. BeHereNow August 21st 2003 04:48 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Pilgrim: I think you missed his point though, which AFAICS is that sometime people are very hypocritical in regards to tolerance. They want you to tolerate everything while at the same time refusing to tolerate your point of view. You have merely restated my position. Kudos! Quote: For instance, Jinx would argue that in the name of tolerance many references to Christianity are removed from schools while in the name of tolerance references to other relgions are encouarged. It's a bit of a paradox. I've never heard of Christianity being lambasted in the name of tolerance. It's in the name of seperation of church & state. BeHereNow August 21st 2003 04:51 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Pilgrim: Polarized language never does though, it simply makes people polarized and defensive and really doesn't change any one's mind. Indeed. Vorkosigan August 21st 2003 04:58 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Endrei said the point of his Sunday sermon was "we love the homosexual, but we hate the sin." Yep. Lots of hate there. That's right. I'm glad you understand that. Vorkosigan popof3 August 21st 2003 05:17 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Yesterday @ 02:07 PM post located here Jinx72: Actually, it is, as the culprits no doubt want Christians to tolerate homosexuality. "Be tolerant of homosexuality or we'll hurt you!" :ahem: And you pretty much hate the idea that the homosexual may stand up and do what the christians have been doing for, oh, 2000 years? Funny you started this thread (not really funny at all) while never once starting a thread about the christian groups killing or torturing homosexuals, or about your right wing conservative bretheren bombing and killing at abortion clinics. Apparently, in your straight world, only the straights have the right (God given of course) to do as they please to anyone they consider doing wrong. Can you spell "hypocrite"? Tolerant and proud! geochron August 21st 2003 06:49 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If Christians are attacking Christians, how is that a hate crime against Christians? The hidden assumption in the original post is so revealing. The assumption is that someone who advocates ordaining homosexual clergy necessarily does it as part of a wider 'liberal' agenda of tolerance. I've often thought that Jinx has a big bag of people he disagrees with, all lumped together and labelled 'liberals'. If a person disagrees with him on one issue, they must take the liberal position on all issues (or be 'hypocrites' for not conforming to his prejudices). juliod August 21st 2003 08:49 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: If Christians are attacking Christians, how is that a hate crime against Christians? I've pointed that out twice, yet it hasn't seemed to have crossed many people's threshold of consciousness. DanZ The Laughing Man August 22nd 2003 01:45 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Yesterday @ 05:17 PM post located here popof3: And you pretty much hate the idea that the homosexual may stand up and do what the christians have been doing for, oh, 2000 years? Correction: what a few Christians have done. They neither represent the norm nor the majority. (And, yes, I am aware that these people who committed the violence against Christians aren't the norm nor the majority, either, but it seems you wouldn't mind if they were...) Of course, pointing that out just goes to show that such people are hypocrites. Quote: Funny you started this thread (not really funny at all) while never once starting a thread about the christian groups killing or torturing homosexuals, or about your right wing conservative bretheren bombing and killing at abortion clinics. Alright, I want to make something VERY clear. NO CHRISTIAN GROUPS EVER KILLED OR TORTURED HOMOSEXUALS OR BOMBED ABORTION CLINICS. The individuals who did those things were rare extremists who likely had a few screws loose. I notice that when these things happen, though, people like you completely ignore the condemnations of the acts by my "right wing conservative bretheren[sic]" and you vilify the whole lot of us. Guilt by association, I guess. BTW, when was the last time you heard about a homosexual being tortured and/or killed at the hands of someone claiming to be a Christian? And when was the last time you heard of someone claiming to be a Christian bombing an abortion clinic? It's been quite a while, hasn't it? In fact, when those things did happen, it wasn't anywhere near the epidemic leftists always make it out to be. Quote: Apparently, in your straight world, only the straights have the right (God given of course) to do as they please to anyone they consider doing wrong. Did I ever say any such thing? Of course not. Do I believe any such thing? No, I don't. Please stop fabricating lies about me using your prejudices and bigotry. Quote: Can you spell "hypocrite"? Sure I can. Can you spell "lying hatemonger?" Quote: Tolerant and proud! If you were actually half as tolerant as you claim to be, you wouldn't be fabricating lies about me and other Christians in order to bash us and build yourself up. Page 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyx Posted May 12, 2005 Author Share Posted May 12, 2005 The Laughing Man August 22nd 2003 02:05 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Yesterday @ 06:49 PM post located here geochron: If Christians are attacking Christians, how is that a hate crime against Christians? What you really mean: "If liberal Christians are attacking conservative Christians, how is that a hate crime against Christians?" Quote: The hidden assumption in the original post is so revealing. There is no assumption there. You are just assuming there is. You also assume that one group of Christians cannot commit hate crimes against another group of Christians. That is simply untrue, though leftists tend to modify the definition of the phrase to fit their needs at the moment. Had the story been about conservative Christians attacking liberal Christians, I have no doubt it would've been labelled a hate crime. Quote: The assumption is that someone who advocates ordaining homosexual clergy necessarily does it as part of a wider 'liberal' agenda of tolerance. That is not an assumption. That is the truth. So much should be clear from the fact that right after Robinson was ordained as a bishop, the Episcopalian also voted in support of recognizing homosexual unions. Quote: I've often thought that Jinx has a big bag of people he disagrees with, all lumped together and labelled 'liberals'. You mean like others here have a big bag of people they disagree with, all lumped together and labelled "right wing conservative Christian fundamentalists?" (And that's the NICE label.) Quote: If a person disagrees with him on one issue, they must take the liberal position on all issues (or be 'hypocrites' for not conforming to his prejudices). Not true in the least, but I'm sure that won't stop you from believing it is. The lie makes you feel comfortable. That's how you want me to be and the truth be damned! I wish you could step outside yourselves and see how foolish you made yourselves look right now. popof3 August 22nd 2003 02:51 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Today @ 02:45 AM post located here Jinx72: Correction: what a few Christians have done. They neither represent the norm nor the majority. (And, yes, I am aware that these people who committed the violence against Christians aren't the norm nor the majority, either, but it seems you wouldn't mind if they were...) Just like the racist attacks in the 60's and 70's, these attacks have been led by church leaders, as they walk down the street with them. If you are leading a flock, and your words make them believe that violence is the answer, then you are responsible for their actions. Quote: Of course, pointing that out just goes to show that such people are hypocrites. Yes, you are. Quote: Alright, I want to make something VERY clear. NO CHRISTIAN GROUPS EVER KILLED OR TORTURED HOMOSEXUALS OR BOMBED ABORTION CLINICS.[/qhote] What a bunch of bull. You stay blind. Hey jinx, why don't you run back over to theologyonline and find the followers of Bob Enyart and his shadowgov.com to see what right wing Christians are really about. Conclusion Policy Wisdom Right-wing Christians have long presented such policy objectives, but the secular world generally ignores such wisdom. Christians who carefully study the Bible are best qualified to teach the world how it should be governed. Let’s change our way of life as little as possible, and the terrorists’ way of life as much as possible. We can comply with terrorists on one point, if they want to die in this battle, we can assist them. Like that? http://www.enyart.com/features/writings/closet.shtml http://www.enyart.com/features/writings/dayone.shtml Com on Jinx, he is the christian leader of a now nationally known fundy christian movement. In day one he says Quote: America’s death row inmates will be executed tomorrow beginning at 7:00 p.m. local time. Lethal injection and other painless execution techniques are permanently prohibited. Prosecution witnesses, victims’ family members and friends may participate in the execution if so desired. From this day forward, those convicted of any capital crime will be executed. All abortion clinics are ordered closed and padlocked by the local police or sheriff’s department. Anyone aborting, attempting or conspiring to abort, or advocating the killing of an unborn child from this day forward, upon conviction, will be executed. Any manufacturer, provider, or advocate of, or anyone procuring, conspiring or attempting to procure, any abortifacient (such as RU 486, the IUD, or any birth control pill which also acts as an abortifacient) from this day forward, upon conviction, will be executed. Anyone advocating, attempting, conspiring to commit or committing murder, including euthanasia (including by the withholding of food and water) or infanticide (including the killing of handicapped babies), upon conviction, from this day forward, will be executed. He sells his books nationally. Some of your best friends are members, such as Jaltus, hitch, Gray Pilgrim, freak, NSMInisteries, themuzicman... Go and read. Personally, I find nothing 'Chrsitlike" about your words so far in this forum, and the fact that you think yourself a better Christian than us 'liberals' shows you really don't know Christ. You know who he IS, but you sure don't want to give up who you are to be like Him. How about these groups Jinx? http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c106.html They claim themselves Christian. They read the bible just like you. You now can say they AREN'T Christian groups? http://www.gospelcom.net/cgi-apolog...rg%2Ffront.html http://www.apologeticsindex.org/p09.html The individuals who did those things were rare extremists who likely had a few screws loose. I notice that when these things happen, though, people like you completely ignore the condemnations of the acts by my "right wing conservative bretheren[sic]" and you vilify the whole lot of us. Guilt by association, I guess. BTW, when was the last time you heard about a homosexual being tortured and/or killed at the hands of someone claiming to be a Christian? And when was the last time you heard of someone claiming to be a Christian bombing an abortion clinic? It's been quite a while, hasn't it? In fact, when those things did happen, it wasn't anywhere near the epidemic leftists always make it out to be. Quote: Did I ever say any such thing? Of course not. Do I believe any such thing? No, I don't. Please stop fabricating lies about me using your prejudices and bigotry. Yes you did. You did it in every attack on me or anyone else that has disagreed with you here. Then you pull out your fundie brothers and sisters to further add to your attacks. Quote: Sure I can. Can you spell "lying hatemonger?" Yes I can "J-I-N-X". Did you catch that? Quote: If you were actually half as tolerant as you claim to be, you wouldn't be fabricating lies about me and other Christians in order to bash us and build yourself up. You make me laugh Jinx. and puke at the same time. YOU have the 'Straight and Proud" logo, and claim you are NOT using it to bash or build yourself up, yet the second I say 'Tolerant and Proud" I am. I will say this. I have zero tolerance for blind fools who are only blind from choice, and spend their lives trying to make others just as blind. http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?actio...&article=950315 You want to know what it really is Jinx? It is me against hate fillied people like yourself that spend their lives looking for more ways to condemn everyone else and start forums and threats, get a bunch of you in groups, call yourself moderators, then attack those who disagree. For those who are attacked by Jinx and his breatheren http://www.anti-fascism.org/da/aft/...w-to-fight.html http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?actio...&article=950311 The facts are that if you oppose the views of the fundie, you are a 'whiner', 'unchirstian', a 'god-hater', a 'queer-lover' (as has been said repeatedly by one member of this forum) or a spiteful, hateful person, like they love calling me. THEY are NEVER hating in their posts, only those who tell them they are are the ones hating. Never has anyone gotten into the mind of an extreemist right wing fundie. Why? Because they have already stated, and know for a fact, they know more about God and His wants than anyone else. They know God hates the same things they do and nothing will ever show them the truth. That's why they start forums. Not to enlinghten, but to group together and send each other 'pearls' for how well they can insult a more liberal Christian. popof3 August 22nd 2003 03:11 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.armyofgod.com/ClaytonWaagnerLetter1.html http://www.armyofgod.com/PHillonepage.html http://www.armyofgod.com/ShelleyForce.html http://www.armyofgod.com/MalvasiMarraPic.html http://www.armyofgod.com/heroes.html Yeah, it's just a FEW, NON-CHRISTIAN extreemists. What a JOKE. The Laughing Man August 22nd 2003 04:51 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- popof3's eyes turn brown Quote: Today @ 02:51 PM post located here popof3: Just like the racist attacks in the 60's and 70's, these attacks have been led by church leaders, as they walk down the street with them. Oh, please... The vast majority of church leaders do not lead nor condone these attacks. If you have evidence to the contrary, then present it. I won't be holding my breath, though. Quote: If you are leading a flock, and your words make them believe that violence is the answer, then you are responsible for their actions. True, but not applicable to the majority of church leaders. Quote: Yes, you are. So is that your way of denying that those people who attacked the janitor are hypocrites? Are they your heroes now? Quote: What a bunch of bull. You stay blind. And you continue to lie. Quote: Hey jinx, why don't you run back over to theologyonline and find the followers of Bob Enyart and his shadowgov.com to see what right wing Christians are really about. Perhaps you could post some links? And then provide evidence outside of TheologyOnline that supports your conclusion. And perhaps you could point out exactly what you are taking issue with on the shadowgov.com website. BTW, I'm a right wing Christian and I've not heard much about Bob Enyart. In fact, his name is just vaguely familiar to me. Quote: Quote: Conclusion Policy Wisdom Right-wing Christians have long presented such policy objectives, but the secular world generally ignores such wisdom. Christians who carefully study the Bible are best qualified to teach the world how it should be governed. Let’s change our way of life as little as possible, and the terrorists’ way of life as much as possible. We can comply with terrorists on one point, if they want to die in this battle, we can assist them. Like that? Should I? Shouldn't I? I don't make up my mind on anything based on one person's (i.e. you) selected blurb. Quote: ttp://www.enyart.com/features/writings/closet.shtml http://www.enyart.com/features/writings/dayone.shtml Yes, and do you have a point behind posting those links? Quote: Com on Jinx, he is the christian leader of a now nationally known fundy christian movement. Interesting how I can't find any news articles about him. Geez, man. Even Fred Phelps gets regular news coverage. Quote: In day one he says That piece looked like a work of fiction to me. Quote: He sells his books nationally. So? In this day and age, that is not unusual. Anyone can sell books nationally these days, but that does not make them leaders of anything. Quote: Some of your best friends are members, such as Jaltus, hitch, Gray Pilgrim, freak, NSMInisteries, themuzicman... First, I wouldn't classify anyone here as my "best friends." I know none of those you mentioned outside of this website, and others that you don't mention I know nothing about outside of the internet. In any case, what exactly are they members of? Quote: Go and read. If you've got something specific, post it and comment on it. Quote: Personally, I find nothing 'Chrsitlike" about your words so far in this forum, I don't think you'd know what "Christlike" is even if it came up and bit you on the hinder. Christ taught love and tolerance of persons, but not acceptance of their sins as "okay" or "normal." That's exactly my position as well. Quote: and the fact that you think yourself a better Christian than us 'liberals' shows you really don't know Christ. What makes you think I think of myself as a "better Christian" than anyone else? Have I ever said such a thing? No, it seems that you are once again putting words into my mouth (after a fashion). Quote: You know who he IS, but you sure don't want to give up who you are to be like Him. You don't even know who I was before I became a Christian, so I find your condemnation grossly ignorant and foolish. Quote: How about these groups Jinx? http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c106.html They claim themselves Christian. Matthew 7 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' Quote: They read the bible just like you. So? Atheists read the Bible, too. Quote: You now can say they AREN'T Christian groups? I can say that they do not represent the majority, as you are falsely trying to portray that they do. Quote: http://www.gospelcom.net/cgi-apolog...rg%2Ffront.html Another group that does not represent the majority. Quote: http://www.apologeticsindex.org/p09.html And, again, yet another group that does not represent the majority. Tell me, what was the meaning of that little exercise in futility? It is obviously your contention that these groups represent the majority of right wing Christians, but you present nothing in the way of proof of that. Anyone and any group can claim to be Christian, but as the Matthew 7 passage above shows, claiming to be Christian and being recognized by Christ as Christian are two completely different things. I noticed you completely skipped over the following two paragraphs of mine. I guess you agree with me: Quote: The individuals who did those things were rare extremists who likely had a few screws loose. I notice that when these things happen, though, people like you completely ignore the condemnations of the acts by my "right wing conservative bretheren[sic]" and you vilify the whole lot of us. Guilt by association, I guess. BTW, when was the last time you heard about a homosexual being tortured and/or killed at the hands of someone claiming to be a Christian? And when was the last time you heard of someone claiming to be a Christian bombing an abortion clinic? It's been quite a while, hasn't it? In fact, when those things did happen, it wasn't anywhere near the epidemic leftists always make it out to be. You obviously can't answer anything in that last paragraph, I guess. I'm not surprised. Quote: Yes you did. Then quote me. Quote: You did it in every attack on me or anyone else that has disagreed with you here. Seems that you are reading your prejudices into my posts. Quote: Then you pull out your fundie brothers and sisters to further add to your attacks. I "pulled out my fundie brothers and sisters to further add to my attacks?" What in the world does that drivel mean? You think I have some sort of control over other people who post here? Quote: Yes I can "J-I-N-X". Did you catch that? Yes, I caught your lying and hatemongering. Quote: You make me laugh Jinx. and puke at the same time. That must be painful. Careful you don't choke on your vomit doing that. Perhaps you should seek medical help. Quote: YOU have the 'Straight and Proud" logo, and claim you are NOT using it to bash or build yourself up, yet the second I say 'Tolerant and Proud" I am. Is that what I said? No. You can be tolerant and proud all you want, but the fact that you make up lies about me shows that you aren't tolerant in the least. Quote: I will say this. I have zero tolerance for blind fools who are only blind from choice, and spend their lives trying to make others just as blind. And I have zero tolerance for liars who make things up about me and other Christians (particularly right wing, conservative Christians). Quote: http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?actio...;article=950315 :rofl: Considering you yourself don't consider me a "real Christian," I find your presentation of that article hypocritical. Better look in the mirror and see that pointing finger pointing back at yourself. Quote: You want to know what it really is Jinx? It is me against hate fillied people like yourself that spend their lives looking for more ways to condemn everyone else I have never condemned anyone. Where did you pick that delusion up from? (Remember: if you say "your posts, Jinx," you must quote me.) Quote: and start forums and threats, Where exactly have I made any threats? Quote: get a bunch of you in groups, Which groups? Quote: call yourself moderators, I'm not a moderator. Quote: then attack those who disagree. You mean just like everyone else on this forum does? Quote: For those who are attacked by Jinx and his breatheren http://www.anti-fascism.org/da/aft/...w-to-fight.html http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?actio...;article=950311 :lmbo: And you consider right wing Christians extremists and dangerous? Oh, the irony! Quote: The facts are that if you oppose the views of the fundie, you are a 'whiner', 'unchirstian', a 'god-hater', No, people who actually are whiners, un-Christian and God-haters are called those things. There are plenty of posters who oppose the conservative Christian position who are actually level-headed, intelligent and enjoyable to have a discussion with. Quote: a 'queer-lover' (as has been said repeatedly by one member of this forum) More guilt-by-association? :ahem: (BTW, I can't seem to find instances of that phrase on TWeb. Perhaps you could point them out to me so I can see it for myself?) Quote: or a spiteful, hateful person, like they love calling me. Gosh, I wonder why... Quote: THEY are NEVER hating in their posts, only those who tell them they are are the ones hating. Because they do so without the least bit of objectiveness or rationality. Here's an accurate portrayl of what I'm saying: Poster #1: "I love the sinner, but not the sin of homosexuality." Poster #2: "YOU INTOLERANT, BIGOTTED HATE-PREACHER!!! ALL YOU RIGHT WING CHRISTIANS ARE GUILTY OF TORTURING AND MURDERING HOMOSEXUALS, BOMBING ABORTION CLINICS, AND MAKING SURE I ALWAYS GET THE BURNED RICE KRISPIE IN MY BOWL!!! YOU'RE ALL A BUNCH OF HYPOCRITES AND RACIST NAZI FACISTS!!!" Okay, okay. I couldn't help not being a little playful with that. It's just that many of the "pro-homosexuality" responses here are so irrational and bizarre. Quote: Never has anyone gotten into the mind of an extreemist right wing fundie. Why? Because the lies about, and misportrayls and gross generalizations of them are comfortable to people like you. To you, anyone and everyone who is a right wing Christian is an "extremist" bent on world-domination and the wholesale slaughter of homosexuals and non-whites. Quote: Because they have already stated, and know for a fact, they know more about God and His wants than anyone else. Oh, and you don't make such a claim? Quote: They know God hates the same things they do and nothing will ever show them the truth. What God hates is pretty clearly defined in the Bible. Quote: That's why they start forums. Not to enlinghten, but to group together and send each other 'pearls' for how well they can insult a more liberal Christian. :lmbo: Why do you even bother posting here, then? Just go find another more liberal-leaning forum where you can insult conservative Christians (just like you do here) with other like-minded individuals and pat each other on the back for doing such a good job. Oh, wait... :teehee: :wedgie: The Laughing Man August 22nd 2003 04:53 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Today @ 03:11 PM post located here popof3: http://www.armyofgod.com/ClaytonWaagnerLetter1.html http://www.armyofgod.com/PHillonepage.html http://www.armyofgod.com/ShelleyForce.html http://www.armyofgod.com/MalvasiMarraPic.html http://www.armyofgod.com/heroes.html Yeah, it's just a FEW, NON-CHRISTIAN extreemists. What a JOKE. The joke is how you falsely portray such groups as representing the majority of conservative Christians. It's a pathetic ploy that you seem to enjoy. (Hey, I'm a poet and I don't know it!) HerodionRomulus August 22nd 2003 05:09 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The article came from the Cleveland Plain Dealer and this was oddly omitted from the WorldNetDaily version. "Capt. Guy Turner said police have no way of knowing the motive for the attack...." popof3 August 22nd 2003 11:38 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maybe you should just do a search for Bob Enyart. But that would mean you actually did something instead rather than blather. You will find a direct link from his official website to the article I gave you the link for. OR< if you are still just a mouth with no mind, you can ask those names I metioned that are members of here AND that site. Then you would get the information from someone you trusted and then you could call them a liar. After all, I don't think people like you actually do much study, since all you energy is poured out in starting condemning threads and saying "I don't like the facts he showed so I will say I think it is a lie" Even when the link is shown. My point never was that it is the MAJORITY, but that it IS something many christians commit or condone. YOU are one of them because you choose to be blind to the facts and instead blather your attacks to the world. As to who is a Hero? I have one. It is Jesus. I just hate one sided views 24/7 which is something that has another side. If you want to post about christians being singled out for attacks, then you need to post when the opposite is also true. After all, it's not like it has been the christians being crucified for the last 1800 years. Maybe you need a brush up on history. (All this was for Jinx) RightIdea August 23rd 2003 12:10 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Today @ 10:38 PM post located here popof3: Maybe you should just do a search for Bob Enyart. But that would mean you actually did something instead rather than blather. You will find a direct link from his official website to the article I gave you the link for. OR< if you are still just a mouth with no mind, you can ask those names I metioned that are members of here AND that site. Then you would get the information from someone you trusted and then you could call them a liar. After all, I don't think people like you actually do much study, since all you energy is poured out in starting condemning threads and saying "I don't like the facts he showed so I will say I think it is a lie" Even when the link is shown. My point never was that it is the MAJORITY, but that it IS something many christians commit or condone. YOU are one of them because you choose to be blind to the facts and instead blather your attacks to the world. As to who is a Hero? I have one. It is Jesus. I just hate one sided views 24/7 which is something that has another side. If you want to post about christians being singled out for attacks, then you need to post when the opposite is also true. After all, it's not like it has been the christians being crucified for the last 1800 years. Maybe you need a brush up on history. (All this was for Jinx) You're joking, right? Christians are the single most oppressed minority on the face of the earth. Whether it's in communist nations or Muslim theocracies in the Middle East and Africa, believers are legally oppressed, harassed, bought and sold as slaves, tortured and murdered. From Cuba to Iran to China, it might behoove you to learn about this before you spout off about how Christians haven't been crucified for the last 1800 years. And btw, I know Enyart. He's an acqaintance of mine and a friend of my ministry. So please be careful how you spout off about him, as well. The Laughing Man August 23rd 2003 12:26 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Yesterday @ 11:38 PM post located here popof3: Maybe you should just do a search for Bob Enyart. What in the world makes you think I haven't? (I did, in fact. Right after you mentioned him.) What I would like you to do is provide links to TheologyOnline so I don't have to try to wade through countless posts and guess at what you are babbling about. Quote: But that would mean you actually did something instead rather than blather. More of the pot calling the kettle black. Not surprising. Quote: You will find a direct link from his official website to the article I gave you the link for. Yes, I went to his website. What I want to know is what exactly your beef is. All you did was provide links with minimal and indirect commentary. Quote: OR< if you are still just a mouth with no mind, you can ask those names I metioned that are members of here AND that site. Then you would get the information from someone you trusted and then you could call them a liar. I'm not interested in their comments right now. I'm concentrating on your's (or the lack thereof, as the case is). Quote: After all, I don't think people like you actually do much study, Yes, you don't think. You assume, and what you assume is far from reality. Quote: since all you energy is poured out in starting condemning threads You keep saying things like that, but you never back it up. Quote: and saying "I don't like the facts he showed so I will say I think it is a lie" You are short on facts and long on lies. You make false assumptions and portray them as absolute truth. I have shown this, but you just cover your ears, squeeze your eyes shut and yell "LALALALALALALALALALA" at the top of your lungs. Quote: Even when the link is shown. You've proven nothing with the links you've provided so far. Quote: My point never was that it is the MAJORITY, Sure it wasn't. <--- That's a link, btw, not just underlining. Quote: but that it IS something many christians commit or condone. So you are saying that it is the majority, then. Make up your dang mind, man! (Of course, what you are saying isn't actually true, but you still need to make up your mind on it.) Quote: YOU are one of them because you choose to be blind to the facts When you present facts, then we'll talk. So far, you've just presented baseless accusations and lies. Quote: and instead blather your attacks to the world. Don't you ever get tired of being the pot or not backing up your accusations? Quote: As to who is a Hero? I have one. It is Jesus. So tell me, pop, would Jesus stoop to making up lies about other people? How about falsely assuming things about them and presenting those assumptions as fact? No? Then why do you? How about this: would Jesus condemn people - as you do - for promoting "love the sinner, not the sin" - as I do? Quote: I just hate one sided views 24/7 which is something that has another side. If you want to post about christians being singled out for attacks, then you need to post when the opposite is also true. So I guess that means you don't agree with Jesus speaking out against the Jewish leaders of his time without presenting their side, huh? In any case, there are plenty of people here already presenting the other side. Why should I have to do the same work they are doing? And hey, I don't see you practicing what you preach there. Quote: After all, it's not like it has been the christians being crucified for the last 1800 years. Actually, it has. Quote: Maybe you need a brush up on history. I know my history, thanks. I also know my current events (as RightIdea just refered to), which you seem blissfully ignorant of. Edit to add: I'm still waiting for you to answer when the last time you heard about abortionists being murdered and/or clinics being bombed. ("Jeopardy" theme plays) D-Dizzle August 23rd 2003 01:15 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How about posting whatever information you have here rather than babbling about what is going on elsewhere. This is TheologyWeb , and Jinx is one of my favorite posters, so maybe we qualify. We do not allow argument by weblink... bring whatever you have here for debate. Jaltus August 23rd 2003 01:28 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Some of your best friends are members, such as Jaltus, hitch, Gray Pilgrim, freak, NSMInisteries, themuzicman... The funny thing about this is the amazing lack of intelligence placed into this. At least two of the six mentioned above have been BANNED by TOL, and three others disassociated with the site. None of the above in anyway endorse Enyart's views. As for Freak, none of us call him friend. Most of us call on him to get mental help, and I mean that seriously. We were on that website much as you are on this one, as OBJECTORS. Truly, that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Popof3, you are a serious moron or else an intentional liar. Do you plan on saying which? (oh, and before you freak out about me not playing by the rules, I have just shown adequate cause to call you either of these things, as per the rules) RightIdea August 23rd 2003 02:21 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Today @ 12:28 AM post located here Jaltus: The funny thing about this is the amazing lack of intelligence placed into this. At least two of the six mentioned above have been BANNED by TOL, and three others disassociated with the site. None of the above in anyway endorse Enyart's views. As for Freak, none of us call him friend. Most of us call on him to get mental help, and I mean that seriously. We were on that website much as you are on this one, as OBJECTORS. Truly, that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Popof3, you are a serious moron or else an intentional liar. Do you plan on saying which? (oh, and before you freak out about me not playing by the rules, I have just shown adequate cause to call you either of these things, as per the rules) And while I naturally disagree with Saltus about Bob Enyart (and only partly, mind you), I 100% agree with him about the utter foolishness of Pop's point. At least know something about the people you are trashing en masse before you open your mouth and show yourself to be a greater fool than you claim them to be. NSMinistries August 23rd 2003 04:03 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Yesterday @ 02:51 PM post located here popof3: He sells his books nationally. Some of your best friends are members, such as Jaltus, hitch, Gray Pilgrim, freak, NSMInisteries, themuzicman... Hey popof3, I am on a lot of boards. That does not mean I agree with everything said or done on them. Just like I don't agree with you here... By the way I had you on ignore for a while. Guess I should have not done that. It seems I missed a lot of entertainment from your posts. Do us a favor if you don't like what you see don't bother bringing everybody else into your fantic ravings. Remember your a member of this board so maybe by your standards others will think you agree with us..... popof3 August 24th 2003 01:48 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Yesterday @ 01:10 AM post located here RightIdea: You're joking, right? Christians are the single most oppressed minority on the face of the earth. Whether it's in communist nations or Muslim theocracies in the Middle East and Africa, believers are legally oppressed, harassed, bought and sold as slaves, tortured and murdered. From Cuba to Iran to China, it might behoove you to learn about this before you spout off about how Christians haven't been crucified for the last 1800 years. And btw, I know Enyart. He's an acqaintance of mine and a friend of my ministry. So please be careful how you spout off about him, as well. No, I won't. I don't care if he is your brother. He is teaching death and persoanl violence upon the homosexual, has written up his plan for it, has no fear of publishing it, so he can dang well defend himself without me worrying about you and your name dropping. http://www.ambushmag.com/is2698/cruisin.htm Quote: Enyart, whose writings advocate the death penalty for homosexuals, sings songs with lines such as "homos roasting on an open fire," and takes pride in his self-acknowledged homophobia... http://www.nyx.net/~pfaustin/orc10-98.html Quote: Here is an example that a lot of prolife people would be familiar with. Bob Enyart has a talk show on a local Christian television station. Bob was involved with Operation Rescue back in early 1990. I was very close to Bob and his wife at that time and watched as he took an active role in destroying his marriage. I was a first hand observer of what went on at that time. Bob went on to remarry soon after that and his second marriage ended in divorce too. What should have been a disqualification from "ministry" didn't slow down Bob a bit. What was worse was that Bob told a story that was far removed from what really happened. Bob is now in his third marriage http://www.weirdcrap.com/recreational/chrsquot.htm Quote: "Monarchy is the best form of Government and a system inspired by God. Jesus was not called the 'Senator of senators,' He was called the 'King of Kings.'" (Bob Enyart, Christian Talk Show host, from his website, WWW.Enyart.com) Quote: "The homos, the perverts, the rapists, the Democrats, the Liberals, and Hillary Clinton ALL love democracy. See, democracy brings socialism because the people vote to steal from other people. You cannot avoid the end-result of socialism." (Bob Enyart, responding to a charge that an innocent man might be accused of murder and put to death wrongly, from his website, WWW.Enyart.com) Quote: "Should Christians govern and are Christians the only ones who are truly qualified to govern, and the answer is, of course, Yes." (Bob Enyart, Christian Talk Show host, from his website, WWW.Enyart.com) Quote: "Which is more likely: An innocent man wrongly charged for murder when there are 24,000 deaths a year or only a handful with good laws?" (Bob Enyart, responding to a charge that an innocent man might be accused of murder and put to death wrongly, from his website, WWW.Enyart.com) Quote: "Men in this country should be willing to take responsibility to protect the women and children who are within their reach, in their sphere, in their family, in their community, on their block, in their church. But today, who runs the country? It's feminists. It's women. It's skirts running the country and that doesn't work. Where do you see that? You see this in inner-cities. What do you have in inner-cities? You've got the feminist dream. Female head of households, 70% or so, women-run social services (welfare, food stamps, child abuse, and all that), public schools dominated by women, and that's the inner-city. The inner-cities are the feminist dream where women are running things. Guess what That doesn't work! Women were not made to run things. Men were made to run things. When women try to run things and usurp the authority from men." (Bob Enyart, Christian talk-show host, from his website, WWW.Enyart.com) I have lost ALL respect for you. http://www.nospank.net/n-e81.htm http://www.nospank.net/n-e48.htm The fact that he has been called the leader of a cult does MUCH for how your posts will now be viewed. http://www.apologeticsindex.org/e23.html http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Studio/5097/ http://www.westword.com/issues/1999-12-16/feature.html http://www.withchrist.org/bullinger.htm http://www.holtuncensored.com/members/column20.html popof3 August 24th 2003 01:50 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Yesterday @ 05:03 PM post located here NSMinistries: Hey popof3, I am on a lot of boards. That does not mean I agree with everything said or done on them. Just like I don't agree with you here... By the way I had you on ignore for a while. Guess I should have not done that. It seems I missed a lot of entertainment from your posts. Do us a favor if you don't like what you see don't bother bringing everybody else into your fantic ravings. Remember your a member of this board so maybe by your standards others will think you agree with us..... I already know you are an Enyartian. You have as many posts at his forum, www.theologyonline.com, as you do here. Do you think it will bother me what you say? The attacks of an Enyartian? OMG lmho. popof3 August 24th 2003 01:57 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Yesterday @ 02:28 AM post located here Jaltus: The funny thing about this is the amazing lack of intelligence placed into this. At least two of the six mentioned above have been BANNED by TOL, and three others disassociated with the site. None of the above in anyway endorse Enyart's views. As for Freak, none of us call him friend. Most of us call on him to get mental help, and I mean that seriously. We were on that website much as you are on this one, as OBJECTORS. Truly, that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Popof3, you are a serious moron or else an intentional liar. Do you plan on saying which? (oh, and before you freak out about me not playing by the rules, I have just shown adequate cause to call you either of these things, as per the rules) Go to their members list. Every name I mention is a member still listed. I called you FRIENDS of the Poster, NOT of Bob Eyart, but that would require objective reading. Please ban me. And never email me again to come back like has been the forums want. I find you a fool. As for endorsing his views? Read your own anti gay threads here. Ban me Jaltus. I have never been able to get rid of my membership here, ended up continually getting emails from Dee Dee asking em to come back (as she does with ALL members who quit posting). You can't ever stand anyone standing up to you and talking back to you in your own terms. SO BAN ME! You can't handle people talking back the same way you talk to them. Page 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyx Posted May 12, 2005 Author Share Posted May 12, 2005 $cirisme August 24th 2003 08:15 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: I called you FRIENDS of the Poster I doubt anyone here considers freak a friend. But by all means, continue in your hysteria and arrogance through ignorance. $cirisme August 24th 2003 08:20 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: popof3: I already know you are an Enyartian. You have as many posts at his forum, www.theologyonline.com, as you do here. Do you think it will bother me what you say? The attacks of an Enyartian? OMG lmho. By the same logic, you are a DDian. You post here, and you post alot. Dee Dee owns this forum, and is an all around nice person, so why wouldn't you be? Popof :bow: to :ddw: NSMinistries August 24th 2003 11:05 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Today @ 01:50 AM post located here popof3: I already know you are an Enyartian. Prove I am a Enyartian as you put it. Just because I post at a site that supports him does not make me one of his followers. Quote: You have as many posts at his forum, www.theologyonline.com, as you do here. I had many many more post there before I was asked to leave for a time. It seems my fighting for what the BIBLE had upset some there. They have enough trouble with mods that like to email you to tell you to leave than mamgement there would like to believe. Quote: Do you think it will bother me what you say? The attacks of an Enyartian? OMG lmho. Then why worry about all this and bring up arguements that really have no barring. Do us all a favor and check your facts before you post here. I can't believe I started a I'm sorry thread over you. Those that asked me to tip toe around you because you were a little misguided should read this as well. Get your Bible and read a little, instead of reading and using what others say and think for your defense and reason with Christian debate. The Word of God is to be the basis we should use to clarify what is wrong and what is right. RightIdea August 25th 2003 02:31 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Aaaaaaaaand the Enyart bashing begins. Wow, we made it from January all the way to August! Actually, I'm pleasantly surprised it took so amazingly long, here at TW. Enyart is one of the most widely misunderstood and misrepresented figures in the Christian community. And today, he admits he is mostly responsible for that, and regrets how he has gone about many of his past efforts in the area of activism. But let's not get into the details on Enyart here; it's quite off topic. Let me just say this much... I don't agree with some of what Enyart has said in the area of theonomy or pseudo-theonomy. (I'd classify him as the latter, since it is technically impossible for a mid-Acts dispensationalist to be a theonomist.) I do agree with some of it, and find other parts intriguing, while disagreeing with still other parts. When it comes to dispensational theology, eschatology, soteriology, divine foreknowledge and just plan scriptural hermeneutics, I am 99.99% on the same page as Enyart. But I do not support everything he's done in the area of activism -- heck, neither does he! So let's drop the Enyart-bashing-by-proxy and attend to actual issues. I am not an "Enyartian." I am a Pauline. :cool: (Oh, and on a side note, I have no longer have anything to do with ToL. The only reason I've gone there in months has been to see Enyart absolutely trounce his opponent in a superb, formal "theist v. atheist" debate. I do not consider myself a member any longer, and have not since January.) D-Dizzle August 25th 2003 03:14 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Yesterday @ 02:57 AM post located here popof3: Go to their members list. Every name I mention is a member still listed. I called you FRIENDS of the Poster, NOT of Bob Eyart, but that would require objective reading. Wow, and you are a member here, that makes you one of us by your logic, and you do have quite a few posts. And wait, let me follow your logic...... we are all Enyartians (allegedly), we have a forum, you post here, OMG popof3 is an Enyartian!!!! Quote: Ban me Jaltus. I have never been able to get rid of my membership here, ended up continually getting emails from Dee Dee asking em to come back (as she does with ALL members who quit posting). You can't ever stand anyone standing up to you and talking back to you in your own terms. SO BAN ME! You can't handle people talking back the same way you talk to them. You are sucking up to the wrong guy.... all bannishments are done by owners, and if I haven't banned Joe Wallack, I don't think I am going to ban you though your desparate death wish is quite amusing, and as I have said before, I would press charges against whoever is holding a gun to your head to post here. And how many emails is continual pop? Do I email you every day? Do you not have the power to resist my great charm? I am flattered. NSMinistries August 25th 2003 10:19 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- one more thing Popof3, If you are so high and mighty about going againts things why are you not on the other boards fighting your type of the good fight. Are you afraid of doing that. It seems to me you would rather be here blaming others and not really going out there and fighting in what you believe in. HerodionRomulus August 25th 2003 05:21 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DDW said in part "Do you not have the power to resist my great charm? I am flattered." No. None of us can resist you, o great and mighty Queen of Forums. :bow: HerodionRomulus August 25th 2003 05:24 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My two cents worth I can only agree with what others have been saying: to post at TOL does not mean one agrees with Enyart. I have been posting off and on at TOL since '99. But I absolutely, positively do NOT agree with almost everything that that Wolf says or does. D-Dizzle August 25th 2003 05:30 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: DDW said in part Quote: Today @ 06:21 PM post located here HerodionRomulus: "Do you not have the power to resist my great charm? I am flattered." No. None of us can resist you, o great and mighty Queen of Forums. :bow: Pearls to you!!!! NSMinistries August 25th 2003 07:25 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: DDW said in part Quote: Today @ 05:21 PM post located here HerodionRomulus: "Do you not have the power to resist my great charm? I am flattered." No. None of us can resist you, o great and mighty Queen of Forums. :bow: :rofl: NSMinistries August 26th 2003 11:18 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- is popof3 gone? HerodionRomulus August 30th 2003 08:23 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here'sa genuine hate crime Christian church destroyed because they love gays A janitor got roughed up for unknown reasons and produced OOOO so much indignation. How about this evil? Corvx19 May 9th 2005 10:18 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Recent hate crimes against Christians Quote: Originally posted by BeHereNow You have merely restated my position. Kudos! I've never heard of Christianity being lambasted in the name of tolerance. It's in the name of seperation of church & state. The statement "Seperation of Church and State" is nowhere in the Constitution, Bill of Rights or anywhere else. That term was taken from a letter which Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptist Association. In the Bill of Rights the 1st Amendment says: Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. If you really read it for what it's worth, organizations like the ACLU are the ones who are breaking the law because through their pursuits of taking down Christianity, they are forcing the government to establish a secular religion. The reason that there are stone monuments of the Ten Commandments and Christmas celebrations and a pledge that declares "Under God" is because this country's history is deeply rooted in Christianity. Granted not all of the founding fathers were christians but they all agreed to these things and that is why we have them today. They did not want the government to enforce a specific religion, but that doesn't mean that people cannot express thier religouis beliefs however they see fit. And yes, christians are constantly penalized for their beliefs, while other religions are treated with absolute respect. Many schools will allow Chrstian bible studies but they spend an entire week teaching students about Islam. Beanieboy May 10th 2005 09:06 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Recent hate crimes against Christians Let me see if I understand this story correctly. Pastor Paul speaks out against another Pastor for being openly gay. The other church, that is tolerant enough to have a gay pastor, is so angered, that they pull a mafia-like "tell Pastor Paul this is a message" by beating up the janitor? Um, really? Now, I have a really hard time believing that people from a liberal church would meet early for coffee and sweet rolls to plan how to beat up a pastor from a church that they don't even belong. Why do I question it? 1. The janitor was attacked, and not the Pastor. 2. People of neighboring churches aren't known to be so offended what another church thinks that they physically attack them, especially a liberal church. A liberal church would react more like, "ah, well. To each his own." 3. As they left, they said, "this is a message for Pastor Paul." How did they know the Pastor's name if they didn't belong to the church? There is a church every one or two blocks from my house. I don't know any of the pastors' names. 4. If those other people didn't belong to the church, how would they know what the sermon was about? 5. If these were gay people, well, are gay people really known for beating up people? Think of the jokes - three guys jumped the janitor, 2 held him down, 1 did his hair. Can you really see a bunch of angry gay boys beating up an old janitor? Or can you imagine straight people so angry that they would beat up a janitor for what one pastor said of another? 6. If they were so upset, why were their no protests - signs, etc.? My guess is that it is a fabricated story to make Pastor Paul incite fear in his congregation to bind them together, and to look like the underdog fighting the evil Giant. Durthorin May 10th 2005 10:33 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Recent hate crimes against Christians Quote: Originally posted by Corvx19 And yes, christians are constantly penalized for their beliefs, while other religions are treated with absolute respect. Many schools will allow Chrstian bible studies but they spend an entire week teaching students about Islam. Tell that to Pagan children expelled or suspended for wearing a pentacle. Brighid Bless, Dur Darth Executor May 10th 2005 10:39 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Recent hate crimes against Christians Quote: Originally posted by Beanieboy 5. If these were gay people, well, are gay people really known for beating up people? Think of the jokes - three guys jumped the janitor, 2 held him down, 1 did his hair. Can you really see a bunch of angry gay boys beating up an old janitor? Or can you imagine straight people so angry that they would beat up a janitor for what one pastor said of another? I can imagine all of the above. There is no logical reason to dismiss them, just your preconceived ideas. Not to mention the fact that the janitor was insured. Are you suggesting he was part of a master plan that included him getting beat up? Page 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyx Posted May 12, 2005 Author Share Posted May 12, 2005 Corvx19 May 10th 2005 12:51 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Recent hate crimes against Christians Quote: Originally posted by Durthorin Tell that to Pagan children expelled or suspended for wearing a pentacle. Brighid Bless, Dur I never said that other people and their beliefs face persecution, I was just pointing out that it is very hypocritical to not allow students of a certain belief to do something so minor as praying over a meal, but they'll spend an entire week teaching and, might I add, enforcing by way of the gradebook, another religion. I have no problem with people expressing their religious beliefs, whether I agree with them or not, but you can't pick and choose. That is not fair. Corvx19 May 10th 2005 12:54 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Recent hate crimes against Christians I never said that other people and their beliefs face persecution' date=' I was just pointing out that it is very hypocritical to not allow fair.[/quote I meant to say I never said that other people and their beliefs don't face persecution. My apologies. Durthorin May 10th 2005 01:14 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Recent hate crimes against Christians Quote: Originally posted by Corvx19 I never said that other people and their beliefs face persecution, I was just pointing out that it is very hypocritical to not allow fair.[/quote I meant to say I never said that other people and their beliefs don't face persecution. My apologies. Not a problem. Its just I have seen to many instances where other faiths religious symbols are outlawed in southern school dress codes as "gang" symbols. The one that I found most startling was forbiding the "Star of David". Never knew that Jews were a "gang" Brighid Bless, Dur G-I-L May 10th 2005 01:53 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Recent hate crimes against Christians "Hate the sin, love the sinner" eh? If there is a group that goes around beating the tar out of Christians using this cliche' please PM me. I'll bring my own bat. First, the cliche' is nonsense. It is impossible to do and everyone knows it. The phrase is just a convienent cop out for real true hate to hide behind. It's like saying "hate the tomato, love the spaghettiesauce". Second, If one could really love the sinner and still hate the sin, why doesn't God just do that for me? Why did He have to die for my sin if He can just separate it out? The new sinners prayer: "send me to heaven, but send that bad ole sin to hell, thank-you very much p.s. I'll be making a lot more of it before I'm thru.". Third, if you do really love the sinner, hows about proving it? What specificly do you love about homosexuals? The way they dress? Cause their neat? What attracts you to homosexuals to the point of loving them? Corvx19 May 10th 2005 01:56 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Recent hate crimes against Christians Quote: Originally posted by Durthorin Not a problem. Its just I have seen to many instances where other faiths religious symbols are outlawed in southern school dress codes as "gang" symbols. The one that I found most startling was forbiding the "Star of David". Never knew that Jews were a "gang" Brighid Bless' date=' Dur Those evil Jews and thier .... Brisks. And their gang slang like "Scholom" and "Oy". I definitly agree with you. That's ridiculous. guacamole May 10th 2005 04:03 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Recent hate crimes against Christians Quote: Originally posted by Durthorin Not a problem. Its just I have seen to many instances where other faiths religious symbols are outlawed in southern school dress codes as "gang" symbols. The one that I found most startling was forbiding the "Star of David". Never knew that Jews were a "gang" Brighid Bless, Dur Just a note... Jews aren't a gang, however the Nations of "Folks" and "People" who use the five and six pointed stars as symbols of allegiance and as markers for territory are gangs. The display of gang-related regalia often leads to violence in schools. Schools, at least in the Chicago area, that do not allow students to wear or display five or six pointed stars are not trying to persecute Jews and Wiccans, but are trying to keep violence out of the halls. For more info go to: http://www.19thcircuitcourt.state.i...niles/gangs.htm fwiw guac. Durthorin May 10th 2005 06:28 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Recent hate crimes against Christians Quote: Originally posted by guacamole Just a note... Jews aren't a gang, however the Nations of "Folks" and "People" who use the five and six pointed stars as symbols of allegiance and as markers for territory are gangs. The display of gang-related regalia often leads to violence in schools. Schools, at least in the Chicago area, that do not allow students to wear or display five or six pointed stars are not trying to persecute Jews and Wiccans, but are trying to keep violence out of the halls. For more info go to: http://www.19thcircuitcourt.state.i...niles/gangs.htm fwiw guac. An some hate groups and gangs use crosses. Are they banning crosses as well? Also from your website it would seem banning all sports team related apparel would do far more than banning the symbols of Jews and Wiccans. Brighid Bless, Dur mstorrie May 10th 2005 06:55 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Recent hate crimes against Christians Quote: Originally posted by G-I-L "Hate the sin, love the sinner" eh? If there is a group that goes around beating the tar out of Christians using this cliche' please PM me. I'll bring my own bat. Then go beat up every Christian you meet (It would only makes things worse though), cause this is actually what God tells us to do. Quote: Originally posted by G-I-L First, the cliche' is nonsense. It is impossible to do and everyone knows it. The phrase is just a convienent cop out for real true hate to hide behind. It's like saying "hate the tomato, love the spaghettiesauce". It is not nonsense, it is entirely possible. While I really don't like it when someone cuts me off in traffic, I hardly let that make me hate the person for it. What is nonsense is saying it can't be done when people do it every day. Quote: Originally posted by G-I-L Second, If one could really love the sinner and still hate the sin, why doesn't God just do that for me? He does. God loves all of his children. However love does not mean telling someone wrong behavior is ok. Quote: Originally posted by G-I-L Third, if you do really love the sinner, hows about proving it? What specificly do you love about homosexuals? The way they dress? Cause their neat? What attracts you to homosexuals to the point of loving them? Depends on your definition of love. Encouraging people to engage in behavior that separates them from God is not very loving at all to Christians. I will give you some credit in that very few Christians practice this very well. It is not always easy, but it is possible. My children whom I love deeply might desparately want to cuss like a sailor, but it wouldn't be very loving of me to encourage them to do so. guacamole May 10th 2005 10:03 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Recent hate crimes against Christians Quote: Originally posted by Durthorin An some hate groups and gangs use crosses. Are they banning crosses as well? Also from your website it would seem banning all sports team related apparel would do far more than banning the symbols of Jews and Wiccans. Brighid Bless, Dur My point was simply meant to be informative about why the symbols are banned. I'm not gonna argue with anyone about it. You can take it or leave it, doesn't matter to me. But if you need to score points about religious persecution... run with it, I guess... Just don't approach anyone familiar with urban school systems with the idea. fwiw guac. Durthorin May 10th 2005 11:23 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Recent hate crimes against Christians Quote: Originally posted by guacamole My point was simply meant to be informative about why the symbols are banned. I'm not gonna argue with anyone about it. You can take it or leave it, doesn't matter to me. But if you need to score points about religious persecution... run with it, I guess... Just don't approach anyone familiar with urban school systems with the idea. fwiw guac. As an ex-cop I tend to shake my head at people who think dress codes control gang violence. In most cases of schools that implimented a "dress code" and saw a drop.. they also added security, metal detectors and a police offensive in the local neighborhood.. But the "dress code" fixed things. If you look at the studies on school uniforms you'll see it has no real effect except that people tend to think it does. An scientific studies are basically still out. Also seeing a small town in Miss. who's major gang is the Southern Baptist youth group ban Star of David as gang related is somewhat.. "silly" Brighid Bless, Dur guacamole May 11th 2005 09:15 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Recent hate crimes against Christians Quote: Originally posted by Durthorin As an ex-cop I tend to shake my head at people who think dress codes control gang violence. In most cases of schools that implimented a "dress code" and saw a drop.. they also added security, metal detectors and a police offensive in the local neighborhood.. But the "dress code" fixed things. I can only speak of what I know. There's no silver bullet to controling gang violence in schools. All they can do is implement a series of incremental steps, all of which work together to combat the problem. The schools I know haven't done dress-codes as a stand alone solution, and so I don't know anyone who thinks dress-codes alone solve the problem. They do help with acts of violence based on representation. In Chicago we had a series of slayings which consisted of drive-bys past schools as teens were gathering together to enter the building. It was fairly easy for hotheads with a gun and a score to settle to pick out their targets. Sadly, hitting your target from a moving automobile while firing your gun sideways isn't as easy, so innocent people died. Two of the solutions provided were a dress code so that it was harder to identify representation curbside and the schools opening their doors earlier than a half-hour to classes. In any case, it still has nothing to do with Wiccans and Jews, no matter the need for perceived religious persecution. The kids who used to wear the star symbols weren't Wiccans or Jews and they weren't being killed by other kids because they were Wiccans or Jews. Quote: Originally posted by Durthorin If you look at the studies on school uniforms you'll see it has no real effect except that people tend to think it does. An scientific studies are basically still out. Also seeing a small town in Miss. who's major gang is the Southern Baptist youth group ban Star of David as gang related is somewhat.. "silly" Brighid Bless, Dur Like I said, I can only speak to what I know. I don't know anything about the school district and what their motivations are. But I do know this, the Folks and People nations have series of alliances that extend throughout the country to different areas, from big cities to indian reservations, though as a former police officer, I bet you knew that. It's not unheard of for small towns to have a gang problem. Can I say that's what it is for sure? Nope. Do I think you can say it's "persecution" for sure? Nope. fwiw guac. HerodionRomulus May 11th 2005 11:16 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Recent hate crimes against Christians Quote: Originally posted by mstorrie Then go beat up every Christian you meet (It would only makes things worse though), cause this is actually what God tells us to do. Really? Please cite chapter and verse for the phrase "love the sinner, hate the sin," or even a close approximation of it. There is none. This phrase is just a convenient way for people to excuse their antipathy for gay people and make their evil actions appear justified. It is also patronizing as it implies that YOU know what is best for someone else and serves as an excuse for using the coercive power of the state to impose religious conformity upon those who do not give free assent to that religious opinion. How is it "love" to support legislation which makes gay people inferior? How is it "love' to support legalized discrimination? mstorrie May 11th 2005 12:35 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Recent hate crimes against Christians Quote: Originally posted by HerodionRomulus Really? Please cite chapter and verse for the phrase "love the sinner, hate the sin," or even a close approximation of it. There is none. There is no single verse that says this exactly. However it is what God does. There are multiple verses showing that God hates sin. It is all over the place. There are are also verses everywhere that show God loves us, though none of us are without sin. That is the very reason he sent his Son to save us. God obviously must be loving us while still hating our actions that separate us from him. Finally Jesus exhorts us to be like God. Since God can achieve this goal, why can Christians not at least try to do it? Quote: Originally posted by HerodionRomulus This phrase is just a convenient way for people to excuse their antipathy for gay people and make their evil actions appear justified. Because some fail in trying to be like God does not change the truth of the message. Quote: Originally posted by HerodionRomulus It is also patronizing as it implies that YOU know what is best for someone else Yes God is very patronizing to say he knows what is best for us! Who the heck does he think he is?! Quote: Originally posted by HerodionRomulus How is it "love" to support legislation which makes gay people inferior? Now when someone doesn't get what they want from the government they are inferior? That is silly. Quote: Originally posted by HerodionRomulus How is it "love' to support legalized discrimination? First we get our emotive "discrimination" argument. It is like playing the race card but you can cover it up with a fancier word. The government legally discriminates on a daily basis in all kinds of fashions. Discrimination is necessary for living. There are both good and bad kinds. So, if you are referring specifically to keeping marraige a heterosexual institution. It is because such legislation would use the force of government to attempt to make people to accept a specific behavior (which can also have broad reaching effects on other behaviors). Therefore legitimizing that behavior which is sin. Telling someone their sin is good or right separates them from God. That is about as unloving as one can get. Cu Mhorrigan May 11th 2005 12:40 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Recent hate crimes against Christians Well I guess this would be less than funny if it werent for the fact that it was two christian factions fighting against one another. HerodionRomulus May 11th 2005 03:58 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Recent hate crimes against Christians Quote: Originally posted by mstorrie Yes God is very patronizing to say he knows what is best for us! Who the heck does he think he is?! I said YOU, not YHWH. Now when someone doesn't get what they want from the government they are inferior? That is silly. Dr King was silly for feeling that laws that kept him inforior should be abolished? First we get our emotive "discrimination" argument. It is like playing the race card but you can cover it up with a fancier word. The government legally discriminates on a daily basis in all kinds of fashions. Discrimination is necessary for living. There are both good and bad kinds. So, if you are referring specifically to keeping marraige a heterosexual institution. It is because such legislation would use the force of government to attempt to make people to accept a specific behavior (which can also have broad reaching effects on other behaviors). Therefore legitimizing that behavior which is sin. Telling someone their sin is good or right separates them from God. That is about as unloving as one can get. Nope. I did not have marriage rights in mind. Rather, the right not to be denied employment, mortgage, housing and all the other things. A few years back the RCC archdiocese of San Francisco fought tooth and nail against hiring gay people in it's NON-religious jobs. George II has been trying to find ways to allow religious-based agencies to practice hiring bans against gays. Colorado passed an amendment to it's constitution which would have disallowed any laws which provided equal protection of the law to gay people. But since YOU mention marriage rights, please give me 2 or 3 specific examples of how this will damage society. Not the usual "immoral" vagueness but specific concrete examples. How will YOU be hurt if e.g. Chastity Bono marries the person she loves? If you really want to protest immorality how about this war which has killed over 100,000 INNOCENT civilians? Thou shalt not kill? Or divorce, which JESUS plainly forbids? Divorce, like what Ronald Reagan did or Newt Gingrich or Rev. Charles Stanley. mstorrie May 11th 2005 04:26 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Recent hate crimes against Christians Quote: Originally posted by HerodionRomulus Nope. I did not have marriage rights in mind. Rather, the right not to be denied employment, mortgage, housing and all the other things. A few years back the RCC archdiocese of San Francisco fought tooth and nail against hiring gay people in it's NON-religious jobs. George II has been trying to find ways to allow religious-based agencies to practice hiring bans against gays. Colorado passed an amendment to it's constitution which would have disallowed any laws which provided equal protection of the law to gay people. No one is perfect. Those people trying to do thing like deny employment are wrong. They are still people after all. However those are completely different than marriage you discuss next. Quote: Originally posted by HerodionRomulus But since YOU mention marriage rights, please give me 2 or 3 specific examples of how this will damage society. Not the usual "immoral" vagueness but specific concrete examples. How will YOU be hurt if e.g. Chastity Bono marries the person she loves? Your first mistake is calling a government contract a right. Second my argument is not based how I will be hurt, but how they will be hurt. I cannot as a good person encourage sin through my representative government, when given a choice by my vote. Quote: Originally posted by HerodionRomulus If you really want to protest immorality how about this war which has killed over 100,000 INNOCENT civilians? Thou shalt not kill? Or divorce, which JESUS plainly forbids? Divorce, like what Ronald Reagan did or Newt Gingrich or Rev. Charles Stanley. I don't see anyone trying to pass laws to encourage those behaviors, so your point continues to be a non-issue. However if someone does, I will be happy to vote against it. Page 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyx Posted May 12, 2005 Author Share Posted May 12, 2005 EvoUK May 11th 2005 09:41 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Recent hate crimes against Christians Wait- don't tell me this thread is about the victimisation of the poor majority religion of the US... :ahem: snkhadd May 11th 2005 10:04 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Recent hate crimes against Christians A couple of thoughts here. 1: Exactly how long did we as Christians think that we could throw the Bible around as a weapon to defend various possitions before things would degrade into violence? How long did any of us really think that the Phelp's of the world could go around touting "kill a queer for Christ" at the funerals of gay men before someone would rise up in anger and violence? 2: If the basis for denying homosexuals the right to be married in our own country (note a large number of us are married legally in other countries) where we pay taxes ect. is about not encouraging sin than why is it okay for divorced persons to remarry? Are we not encouraging the sin by allowing them to enter into a sinful (Bible calls remarriage adultery) relationship? 3: Any body else here get the impression that everytime we get lost in the argument withing the body of Christ that the devil laughs because we have made his job of separating people from God so easy. All he has to do is let Christian retoric about homosexuals (something even the church can't agree upon in relation to the scriptures) stand and millions of Gods children will be separated from Him without any effort on the devils part at all. Rubens May 12th 2005 12:16 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Here'sa genuine hate crime Quote: Originally posted by HerodionRomulus Christian church destroyed because they love gays A janitor got roughed up for unknown reasons and produced OOOO so much indignation. How about this evil? This quote is but one example of this thread is turning into "Whoever can prove they are the biggest victim, wins..." Could this be the REAL hate crime??- Because the gays were the victims?? So let me get this straight. Some people attack the first person they see outside a church known for it's "anti-homosexual" preaching, the reasons for the attack being rather obvious, since it was practically stated by the assailant- and this is NOT a hate crime. Bashing/ burning/ vandalising a gay or gay advocate group IS a hate crime. SO- Openly disagreeing with homosexuality is a hate crime. Therefore bashing such a person is not a hate crime because the hate cancels itself out. Bashing someone who agrees with homosexuality is a hate crime. Got it. I think. Hang on, who is the biggest victim? I'm confused... Rubens May 12th 2005 12:27 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Recent hate crimes against Christians Quote: Originally posted by snkhadd Exactly how long did we as Christians think that we could throw the Bible around as a weapon to defend various possitions before things would degrade into violence? How long did any of us really think that the Phelp's of the world could go around touting "kill a queer for Christ" at the funerals of gay men before someone would rise up in anger and violence? And again- forgive me, but this statement is dangerously close to justifying violence against "straight" preaching. Your basis is the presupposition that Christians should not be condemning homosexuality- because you are convinced the Bible does not class it as sin. Quote: Any body else here get the impression that everytime we get lost in the argument withing the body of Christ that the devil laughs because we have made his job of separating people from God so easy True. Quote: All he has to do is let Christian retoric about homosexuals (something even the church can't agree upon in relation to the scriptures) stand and millions of Gods children will be separated from Him without any effort on the devils part at all. The Devil is also delighted when he is able to make us question what God has said. You are gay and you do not consider yourself separated from God's love. The final page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cu Morrigan Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 Next time, just post a link, you even got your own thread over there datailing how wierd this is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 um, PLEASE just post a link next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Slayer-2004 Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Tweb is full of idiots who think they actually understand philoophy and logic . I tried debating over their but it seems they are more interested in consistantly playing TAG and similar crap . Self brainwashing at its finest . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guacamole Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 Next time, just post a link, you even got your own thread over there datailing how wierd this is. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Fancy meeting you here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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