Those Damn Dogs...

[Valgeir]

Usually, as most people probably know, I'd just research things on my own and perhaps share some information here, but tonight is one of my lazy nights. As I'm sure everyone knows, I'm a staunch supporter of the evolutionary theory, but I do have a couple of questions that I've been pondering.

 

One, the annoying frequency of Canis lupus. The species occurs naturally on three continents- North America, Europe and Asia. After hundreds of thousands of years, why are the specimen on all three continents still more or less the same?

 

Two, Canis lupus familiaris- the dog. We've been breeding the things for our own purposes, separate from wolf stock, for thousands of years- and not only are all varieties of this animal, still the same species, but they are all in fact still variations of the grey wolf.

 

I'm thinking timeframe- perhaps it hasn't been going on long enough. But I don't know (I'm only a scientist in my free time, hahaha) so I'd like some feedback from my colleagues and, indeed, my superiors.

[Taphophilia]

Usually, as most people probably know, I'd just research things on my own and perhaps share some information here, but tonight is one of my lazy nights. As I'm sure everyone knows, I'm a staunch supporter of the evolutionary theory, but I do have a couple of questions that I've been pondering.

 

One, the annoying frequency of Canis lupus. The species occurs naturally on three continents- North America, Europe and Asia. After hundreds of thousands of years, why are the specimen on all three continents still more or less the same?

 

Two, Canis lupus familiaris- the dog. We've been breeding the things for our own purposes, separate from wolf stock, for thousands of years- and not only are all varieties of this animal, still the same species, but they are all in fact still variations of the grey wolf.

 

I'm thinking timeframe- perhaps it hasn't been going on long enough. But I don't know (I'm only a scientist in my free time, hahaha) so I'd like some feedback from my colleagues and, indeed, my superiors.

 

I am in no way an expert and I may be wrong, but I'm going to take a stab at this. These are just my guesses.

 

The wolf: Even though on three separate continents were all similar environments.

 

The dog: It wasn't natural selection that developed differing breeds. It was human manipulation.

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

Any male dog can successfully produce offspring with any other female dog regardless of it's type, wolf, pomeranian, great dane, prohibiting of course the size limitations of genetalia and whether or not it is large enough to "mount" the female. Before I get into this I will have to mention one other animal. Squirrels. Although there are cosmetic differences in squirrels, hair color, length of hair, and such, some of these squirrels cannot successfully reproduce with each other. Evolution would have it that all these squirrels came from the same line. There are about 350-450 different types of squirrels. I'm not sure on the exact number but it is somewhere in that range. You could say that the reason that the Washington Ground Squirrel cannot successfully produce offspring with a European Red Squirrel is because they have lived for many many many generations on different continents with no chance of mixing DNA after natural selection had taken its toll.

 

The same cannot be said of dogs. Dogs go where humans go and humans go all over the world with their dogs. The natural selection alterations in the DNA of the dog has the chance to mix with other breeds creating muts. There are problems with pure bred dogs and humans taking an active role in purebreed selection is making weaker dogs with more ailments all the time. What doesn't work in the DNA of a breed of dog cannot be discarded in the case of purebreds, the defects are carried on to the next generation. If a child was born with as many alterations from the norm as dogs have been, we'd probably call it a birth defect. Look at how many dog breeds that have inherrent difficulties in breathing, hip failures, and what not and you will see what I mean.

[Valgeir]

The dog: It wasn't natural selection that developed differing breeds. It was human manipulation.

 

Selection, however, is still selection.

 

Any male dog can successfully produce offspring with any other female dog regardless of it's type, wolf, pomeranian, great dane, prohibiting of course the size limitations of genetalia and whether or not it is large enough to "mount" the female. Before I get into this I will have to mention one other animal. Squirrels. Although there are cosmetic differences in squirrels, hair color, length of hair, and such, some of these squirrels cannot successfully reproduce with each other. Evolution would have it that all these squirrels came from the same line. There are about 350-450 different types of squirrels. I'm not sure on the exact number but it is somewhere in that range. You could say that the reason that the Washington Ground Squirrel cannot successfully produce offspring with a European Red Squirrel is because they have lived for many many many generations on different continents with no chance of mixing DNA after natural selection had taken its toll.

 

The same cannot be said of dogs. Dogs go where humans go and humans go all over the world with their dogs. The natural selection alterations in the DNA of the dog has the chance to mix with other breeds creating muts. There are problems with pure bred dogs and humans taking an active role in purebreed selection is making weaker dogs with more ailments all the time. What doesn't work in the DNA of a breed of dog cannot be discarded in the case of purebreds, the defects are carried on to the next generation. If a child was born with as many alterations from the norm as dogs have been, we'd probably call it a birth defect. Look at how many dog breeds that have inherrent difficulties in breathing, hip failures, and what not and you will see what I mean.

 

The whole definition of a species is a group of animals that can mate and successfully create fertile offspring. Different squirrels can't do this because they are different species, dogs and wolves still can. You are right in assuming some breeding between dogs and wolves over that time, but I'd say in general the dog breeding stock is removed from the wolf breeding stock. I focus more on this than separate breeds of dog because the timeframe for those to become different to the point of being different species is far too short.

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

Selection, however, is still selection.

 

But not Natural Selection. I wouldn't call making an apple-pear tree Natural Selection.

 

 

The whole definition of a species is a group of animals that can mate and successfully create fertile offspring. Different squirrels can't do this because they are different species, dogs and wolves still can.

 

I wasn't saying that different squirrels are different breeds. I was saying that squirels had reached the stage of evolutionary progress at which the once actually or potentially interbreeding array of forms became segregated into two or more separate arrays which are physiologically incapable of interbreeding because they are reproductively isolated from other such groups which is unlike dogs of which you asked "After hundreds of thousands of years, why are the specimen on all three continents still more or less the same?" The answer I was trying to say is because of human involvement in selection and not letting dogs become reproductively isolated interfered with Natural Selection. Hence, they can still mate and remain more or less the same though physiologically inferior.

[Valgeir]

 

But not Natural Selection. I wouldn't call making an apple-pear tree Natural Selection.

 

 

That's not done by breeding at all- that's grafting, totally different. No matter the source of the factors that will be affecting the genome, the effects will be the same. If a population is split in half by a mountain range, or by a man's fence that is too high to climb (purely hypothetical), the effect will be the same.

 

 

I wasn't saying that different squirrels are different breeds. I was saying that squirels had reached the stage of evolutionary progress at which the once actually or potentially interbreeding array of forms became segregated into two or more separate arrays which are physiologically incapable of interbreeding because they are reproductively isolated from other such groups which is unlike dogs of which you asked "After hundreds of thousands of years, why are the specimen on all three continents still more or less the same?" The answer I was trying to say is because of human involvement in selection and not letting dogs become reproductively isolated interfered with Natural Selection. Hence, they can still mate and remain more or less the same though physiologically inferior.

 

Man hasn't been breeding wolves from Asia with wolves from North America for that whole time. They've been isolated by distance and I imagine for a tremendous span of time (from a human perspective) they have, in terms of reproduction, been separate. Obviously, though, as has been said, it's the fact that the environments of most of North America, northern Europe and northern Asia are very, very similar, and the continents were more or less connected until rather recently (still, in the case of Europe and Asia).

[Taphophilia]

The breeding of purebreed dogs has been very controlled. Have you ever seen a dog show? The dogs must meet certain standards of the particular breed. Breeders usually discard dogs with what they consider flaws. Now, anyone can get two purebreed dogs and breed them for some extra money, which is why there are many genetic health problems with them. That's not the way it's always been though. Breeding of dogs has always been thoughout history an aristicatic vocation with a lot of careful planning going into it. Any kind of undesired trait is culled. So, dogs have never had a chance to develop into another species. Many of the purebreeds that exist today were only allowed to be owned by royalty at one time.

[Taphophilia]

The Maine Coon cat is a breed of cat that developed from regular house cats. Due to natural selection they became much much larger, bigger boned, developed a double coat, and snowshoe like paws to survive in the harsh New England winters in 200 years time. Given the opportunity and enough time they would certainly have developed into another species of cat. Also, the Norwegian Forest Cat is very similar to the Maine Coon with the same characteristics, even though it deveoped on an entirely different continent independant from the Maine Coon. They too were decended from regular house cats, and in the same type of environment.

 

Here's what a Maine Coon cat looks like:

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

That's the biggest pussy I have ever seen! Well, outside of the great cats like lions and such.

[Asimov]

Usually, as most people probably know, I'd just research things on my own and perhaps share some information here, but tonight is one of my lazy nights. As I'm sure everyone knows, I'm a staunch supporter of the evolutionary theory, but I do have a couple of questions that I've been pondering.

 

One, the annoying frequency of Canis lupus. The species occurs naturally on three continents- North America, Europe and Asia. After hundreds of thousands of years, why are the specimen on all three continents still more or less the same?

 

Two, Canis lupus familiaris- the dog. We've been breeding the things for our own purposes, separate from wolf stock, for thousands of years- and not only are all varieties of this animal, still the same species, but they are all in fact still variations of the grey wolf.

 

I'm thinking timeframe- perhaps it hasn't been going on long enough. But I don't know (I'm only a scientist in my free time, hahaha) so I'd like some feedback from my colleagues and, indeed, my superiors.

 

Possible explanation is that there has been cross-population in-breeding going on for those thousands of years...not to mention the probable amount of time it would take for these varieties to be unable to reproduce is pretty unknown.

 

I'm sure humans and chimps could cross-populate if we wanted to and we've been separate as a species for a few million years.

 

 

That's the biggest pussy I have ever seen! Well, outside of the great cats like lions and such.

 

 

biggest and hairiest....I prefer my pussy to be shaved and small.

[greasemonkey]

The Maine Coon cat is a breed of cat that developed from regular house cats. Due to natural selection they became much much larger, bigger boned, developed a double coat, and snowshoe like paws to survive in the harsh New England winters in 200 years time. Given the opportunity and enough time they would certainly have developed into another species of cat. Also, the Norwegian Forest Cat is very similar to the Maine Coon with the same characteristics, even though it deveoped on an entirely different continent independant from the Maine Coon. They too were decended from regular house cats, and in the same type of environment.

 

I have a Maine Coon ...I sometimes wonder if he isn't ALREADY a different species! Weird guy; he loves dogs & doesn't like to have much to do with other cats (we also have a siamese that he loves to irritate). He also likes to chase squirrels, but I think he does it more just to piss off the dog because he can chase them all the way up the tree! I have some great video footage of him playing with my dog I should send to AFV sometime. ...they all make for great evening entertainment!

[LosingMyReligion]

The Maine Coon cat is a breed of cat that developed from regular house cats. Due to natural selection they became much much larger, bigger boned, developed a double coat, and snowshoe like paws to survive in the harsh New England winters in 200 years time. Given the opportunity and enough time they would certainly have developed into another species of cat. Also, the Norwegian Forest Cat is very similar to the Maine Coon with the same characteristics, even though it deveoped on an entirely different continent independant from the Maine Coon. They too were decended from regular house cats, and in the same type of environment.

 

Here's what a Maine Coon cat looks like:

 

 

I love MaineCoons! I own one and they are great cats. Mine is a three year old male who tops out at 23 pounds.

He's a pure house cat though. Big lazy bloke.

 

My question is, how does human manipulation of two wolves eventually get something like a Pomeranian?

 

I know that natural selection occurs when the prevelant traits in a species trickle down to make a perfect organism for a particular environment...However, I don't understand how all of these hundreds of dog breeds produce such vastly unique variations...

[redneck22]

Usually, as most people probably know, I'd just research things on my own and perhaps share some information here, but tonight is one of my lazy nights. As I'm sure everyone knows, I'm a staunch supporter of the evolutionary theory, but I do have a couple of questions that I've been pondering.

 

One, the annoying frequency of Canis lupus. The species occurs naturally on three continents- North America, Europe and Asia. After hundreds of thousands of years, why are the specimen on all three continents still more or less the same?

 

Two, Canis lupus familiaris- the dog. We've been breeding the things for our own purposes, separate from wolf stock, for thousands of years- and not only are all varieties of this animal, still the same species, but they are all in fact still variations of the grey wolf.

 

I'm thinking timeframe- perhaps it hasn't been going on long enough. But I don't know (I'm only a scientist in my free time, hahaha) so I'd like some feedback from my colleagues and, indeed, my superiors.

 

 

“DOG BREED SECRETS REVEALED, as described in ScienceNOW, 14 Dec 2004. The distinctive features of some dog breeds have been found to be due to alterations in 'tandem repeats' – regions of DNA where the same sequence is repeated many times. When these regions are being copied the machinery that does the copying can sometime lose track of where it is up to and leave out some of the repeated sequences or add in a few extra copies.

 

Harold Garner and John Fondon of the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Centre analysed repetitive regions of DNA from 17 genes that are involved in growth and development in 92 different dog breeds. They then correlated the results with differences in bone structure of the different dog breeds. They found that snout lengths – a distinctive feature of many dogs, correlated with variations in repeat numbers in a gene named Runx-2. Wolves had less variation in repeats than domesticated dogs.”

 

 

Dogs are a good example of variation within kind, and good evidence that genetic variation does not result in the evolution of new kinds. All the variation seen in domestic dogs has not made them evolve into any other kind of animal. Indeed, this study shows that most domestic dog breeds are the result of degeneration i.e. loss of genetic controls over certain gene segments followed by genetic mutations and copying errors in those segments.

 

The degenerate 'dogs' which result, only survive because human beings look after them. This is confirmed by the results in wolves. They have survived without human protection, so any degenerate mutations and copying errors have not survived to the next generation, i.e. natural selection keeps them multiplying after their kind and eliminates variation, so evolution cannot occur.

 

Now by evolution I mean the explanation of how a simple independent organism similar to Mycoplasma eventually “evolved” into man, that is Mycoplasma has say 600,000 base pairs in its genes and man has say 3,000,000,000 base pairs. I’m not saying we “evolved” from Mycoplasma but if you look at Evolution 101, http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/a...e/0_0_0/evo_13# and you put the cursor on 3500Mya it indicates single celled life.

 

My question is where did the 2,999,400,000 base pairs come from? By what mechanism was the information added since these are recipes, upon recipes for the formation of bones, hair, brains etc

DNA is not the source of the information for life, it’s just the medium for the information to travel through.

 

What puzzles me about the definition of evolution is that if something changes then its evolved, but if the change is a result of loss of information or degeneration (as is nearly always the case in the empirical science of biological evolution) then how can it add information. You don’t get rich by loosing money.

[crazy-tiger]

What puzzles me about the definition of evolution is that if something changes then its evolved, but if the change is a result of loss of information or degeneration (as is nearly always the case in the empirical science of biological evolution) then how can it add information. You don’t get rich by loosing money.

Sigh... once more we see the inherent mistake people make when they assume that the STRAWMAN OF EVOLUTION THAT CREATIONISTS KEEP SPOUTING is in fact evolution...

 

 

For instance... the whole "information" concept. It doesn't work like that in biology... what you should be wondering about is changes in information, not a change in the amount of information...

 

See... this "0000110001" is a certain amount of information... this "0001010001" is the same amount of information. Is it the same information? (bear with me since this is very simplified) If that is not enough change, (note how no information has been lost or added, just altered) how about this... "1010000100"

It's completely different information... in essense, it's "new" information.

 

Degeneration is alway a change in the information itself, almost always without any loss of information. and to use your anology, the movement of information can create new information... just like moving wealth around create new wealth...

 

 

 

Would you like to deal with evolution now, or stick with the lies you trotted out?

[Ouroboros]

Hi C-T, haven't heard from you in a while. I have seen you browse now and then though. Hope all is well.

[crazy-tiger]

Hi C-T, haven't heard from you in a while. I have seen you browse now and then though. Hope all is well.

Oh yeah... everythings fine. Just a bit tied up making a business work...

[Ouroboros]

I know that feeling.

[Guest Xaru]

Hi C-T, haven't heard from you in a while. I have seen you browse now and then though. Hope all is well.

Oh yeah... everythings fine. Just a bit tied up making a business work...

 

*giggles at just how many levels that statement works on*

[Ouroboros]

Do I get the feeling the Xanu knows more than she reveals?

[crazy-tiger]

Hi C-T, haven't heard from you in a while. I have seen you browse now and then though. Hope all is well.

Oh yeah... everythings fine. Just a bit tied up making a business work...

 

*giggles at just how many levels that statement works on*

You're just trying to get me into trouble now, aren't you?

 

Do I get the feeling the Xanu knows more than she reveals?

And the answer is yes....

[Ouroboros]

Didn't she have the username kitty or sometin before?

[crazy-tiger]

Didn't she have the username kitty or sometin before?

Tsk tsk... this isn't Kitty... this is my other wife.

[Guest Xaru]

Do I get the feeling the Xanu knows more than she reveals?

 

Oh, Its just... THIS is one of the business things she has been busy with, and 'tied up' pretty much sums it up, IMO

 

 

 

 

Do I get the feeling the Xanu knows more than she reveals?

 

Oh, and its 'Xaru', i'm not affiliated in any way with wacky california-based cults

[crazy-tiger]

Do I get the feeling the Xanu knows more than she reveals?

 

Oh, Its just... THIS is one of the business things she has been busy with, and 'tied up' pretty much sums it up, IMO

Now look... do I have to pull out some very embarassing pics of you?

[Guest Xaru]

Do I get the feeling the Xanu knows more than she reveals?

 

Oh, Its just... THIS is one of the business things she has been busy with, and 'tied up' pretty much sums it up, IMO

Now look... do I have to pull out some very embarassing pics of you?

 

I'm trying to think of any, and I'm drawing a blank, so.. quite frankly dear, I'm looking forward to seeing them as much as the next person