Dra_Mucd_Uha Posted April 22, 2006 Share Posted April 22, 2006 In light of recent events, I'm having to adjust to a new lifestyle: that of a non-believer. I have seen arguements for and against Christianity, and I have become disturbed by both, and the interactions that have taken place. I have been talking with a Christian, and we have been going back and forth for a while. Today we were actually speculating on how we view each others opinions. She claimed that while she understood where I was coming from, she could see the flaws in my arguements and would give her reply, but I wouldn't seem to understand it. And at the same time, I could see where she was comig from with her arguements, and when I tried to show her how she was wrong, she wouldn't seem to understand. This is difficult for me to explain, and I am probably doing a poor job of it. Basically, what I'm saying is that either one of us was wrong in our claim, or we are even in the fact that we both have certain beliefs the other seems not to be able to understand. Is it possible that both of us are close minded to the other's beliefs? And if that is true, does that mean that Christianity is true, in that living for God is simply a choice, where when you follow through with it you arrive at an understanding unknown to others? Or is this simply a case of "that's my story and I'm sticking to it"? Thanks for any opinions given, -Randall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greasemonkey Posted April 22, 2006 Share Posted April 22, 2006 Or is this simply a case of "that's my story and I'm sticking to it"? Thanks for any opinions given, -Randall I think the last is the largest part. I've met very few christians who have took serious critical looks at other religions, but I'm sure there may be a few. I've read about and/or been involved with a lot of other religions, and most everyone gets a little closed-minded where their own "stuff" comes into play (see Isaac Hayes & Southpark). Hey, I'll be the first to say I might be wrong about my beliefs. But I can also say that If I am wrong, there won't be any regrets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 22, 2006 Share Posted April 22, 2006 No, you're making an observation of an true and existing problem. Our opinions are more based on inner workings of our minds than real arguments or facts. If the pattern-recognizing-meme-dependent-subconscious brain doesn't get it, then we don't understand. Sometimes it help to explain something from a different angle, or just have someone else explain it, and the person suddenly gets it. Hard to say how/what/when/why for what will make someone understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Libertus Posted April 22, 2006 Share Posted April 22, 2006 Is it possible that both of us are close minded to the other's beliefs? And if that is true, does that mean that Christianity is true, in that living for God is simply a choice, where when you follow through with it you arrive at an understanding unknown to others? Or is this simply a case of "that's my story and I'm sticking to it"? Religious discussions between people who already have beliefs are really fruitless from the point of view of change. Our "beliefs" are not really chosen, in my opinion. I didn't "choose" to cease believing my fantasy, over time of looking at evidence on my own and thinking long and hard, I had to come to the realization that I no longer believed. When I discuss my thoughts and ideas with the religious, I have no desire of making them change. Maybe I will provoke a thought, but much like them, my discussion with them is more of a sort of exercise for me. The main difference is that I don't berate them and I don't offer anyone a religious discussion unless they bring it up. I also always approach them and their beliefs with the utmost respect, albeit sometimes forced respect for their ideas in an attempt to respect the person. A person with any firmly held belief, or lack thereof, is not going to really understand completely the opposing viewpoint. Libertus P.S. That seems a bit long winded and might not make any sense anymore. I'm tired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGJ@ReligionisBullshit Posted April 22, 2006 Share Posted April 22, 2006 Religious discussions between people who already have beliefs are really fruitless from the point of view of change. Our "beliefs" are not really chosen, in my opinion. I didn't "choose" to cease believing my fantasy, over time of looking at evidence on my own and thinking long and hard, I had to come to the realization that I no longer believed. When I discuss my thoughts and ideas with the religious, I have no desire of making them change. Maybe I will provoke a thought, but much like them, my discussion with them is more of a sort of exercise for me. The main difference is that I don't berate them and I don't offer anyone a religious discussion unless they bring it up. I also always approach them and their beliefs with the utmost respect, albeit sometimes forced respect for their ideas in an attempt to respect the person. I agree, and the rule I try to live by is that personal experience is not a topic of discussion when it comes to religion. It can't be used to rationalize the existence of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted April 22, 2006 Share Posted April 22, 2006 I both agree and disagree with the statements here. From the point of me and xianity I don't respect their arguments. Not because I don't understand the other person or their position but because I do understand it since I used to hold it myself. Now add to the that the additional knowledge that this person does not possess and you have an arguement from experience and knowledge versus a simple biased opinion (that came out totally wrong but I think you can see what I meant). Now this isn't true with all xians but the more I "discuss" these issues the more I find out how little these people actually know about the topic in general. When it comes to others faiths however I have to back off since I haven't been Muslim or Jewish (and even though it's the same OT they see it differently than xians in many ways) or any other faith. So I want to keep an open mind and understand what they say. If their argument holds water I'm open to the whole concept. As it is now, however, I am not looking for a religion and the one I know best I know to be false...however if they can actually produce evidence to prove me wrong I am open to that as well but this takes more than assertions that I'm not allowed to counter too (and that is a rare situation indeed). mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted April 22, 2006 Share Posted April 22, 2006 Han's got his finger on it. There is more to the mind then just the awake bit we think is us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Emerson Posted April 22, 2006 Share Posted April 22, 2006 There will be flaws in arguments on both sides. People have biases and personal beliefs as well, you can't be 100% bias-free. Never going to happen even when you do your best, I think its best to agree to disagree. The only opinions you have to live with are your own and the only person you have to live with is yourself. So make peace with that! Its cool to meet people who have things in common with us but we need to be at peace about what we believe. No one knows more than you, everyone is human! Some people just have more experiences but don't be afraid to believe what you want and stand by that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 22, 2006 Share Posted April 22, 2006 There is more to the mind then just the awake bit we think is us. Yup. The conscious part is extremely small. The subconscious is extremely large. "Free" will is a mystery too, because what we decide is just a result of a behind-the-scene computation our subconscious have done, before the upper parts realize "Hey, I'd like to do this". Where did it come from? Maybe from a billion calculations of need, wants or memories... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dra_Mucd_Uha Posted April 23, 2006 Author Share Posted April 23, 2006 Yup. The conscious part is extremely small. The subconscious is extremely large. "Free" will is a mystery too, because what we decide is just a result of a behind-the-scene computation our subconscious have done, before the upper parts realize "Hey, I'd like to do this". Where did it come from? Maybe from a billion calculations of need, wants or memories... Free will has always been a big thing to me. If you look at the actions of others, or even yourself, there is always a result of that action that pleases the person who did it. I don't tihnk there is a such thing as charity, or true giving. Well, I suppose it depends on your definition of it. I don't believe in selflessness. There you go. Because everything you do you do because you get something out of it. Even things that appear as acts of selflessness aren't that at all. You give a gift to someone. Why? Because you are selfless? No, because you got something out of it as well whether it be the other person's gratification, your own accomplishment at being kind, etc... It's difficult for me to explain. I also agree with what you said, HanSolo. We are slaves to our nature, to our subconsious. How can we make a choice that is completely free when we are subject to our subconsious, which is subject to past experiences, memories, etc...? I'm not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 23, 2006 Share Posted April 23, 2006 Yup. The conscious part is extremely small. The subconscious is extremely large. "Free" will is a mystery too, because what we decide is just a result of a behind-the-scene computation our subconscious have done, before the upper parts realize "Hey, I'd like to do this". Where did it come from? Maybe from a billion calculations of need, wants or memories... Free will has always been a big thing to me. If you look at the actions of others, or even yourself, there is always a result of that action that pleases the person who did it. I don't tihnk there is a such thing as charity, or true giving. Well, I suppose it depends on your definition of it. I don't believe in selflessness. There you go. Because everything you do you do because you get something out of it. Even things that appear as acts of selflessness aren't that at all. You give a gift to someone. Why? Because you are selfless? No, because you got something out of it as well whether it be the other person's gratification, your own accomplishment at being kind, etc... It's difficult for me to explain. Difficult to explain, but I'm completely certain that I actually understand you fully, because I'm on the same line. There's always something that gives us a fulfillment of some kind, whatever we do. Even altruism can be traced back to the feeling of content or pride, which releases endorphins etc and we feel good. There are a sickness (don't remember its name) where a person feel obsessed to give, they can't help it. Even peoples reason to become Christian is a selfish act. Just ask a Christian, why is it so damn important for you that you have to go to heaven? Why can't you just tell God, that you're taking the place of your neighbor. "Let him go to heaven, and I'll take his place in hell." I have never heard a Christian do the ultimate sacrifice. And why is that? Because they feel they have the right to go there. That's selfish I say. I also agree with what you said, HanSolo. We are slaves to our nature, to our subconsious. How can we make a choice that is completely free when we are subject to our subconsious, which is subject to past experiences, memories, etc...? I'm not sure. What's interesting is to look at the decision process, like when we change our minds. We decide to go to the fast food place and order food. What food will we order? And when we change our mind to take something else than usual, does it really come as a surprise when we do it? Isn't it like "that is what I wanted" in the end anyway? So where did really "free" will happen? Did it happen at all, or was it just a stronger desire that pushed us to a different choice? Try to order something random, pick a dish you know you hate. Will you do it, or will you struggle with yourself and in the end still order a dish you know you like? I don't think we have a free will, but our actions are just results of massive computations. So when the arguments of transcendence and the "will" as a metaphysical force, I think it's just an illusion. (Same old arguments and ideas, nothing new... funny though that these ideas are older than Christianity!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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