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Bullet point apologetics


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Good work, Wertbag!   This is a very useful, comprehensive summary of why Christianity is literally unbelievable.   People who are going through that stage of deconversion where they start to second-guess themselves and wonder “what if I’m wrong?” would be well-advised to start every day by referring to this list.   Thanks for putting it together!

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Agreed! 

 

A very good summary of the most important apologetic arguments and their counter arguments, Wertbag.  :)

 

For the record, I've tackled the Kalam Cosmological Argument here... https://www.ex-christian.net/topic/82597-the-failed-cosmology-of-william-lane-craig/

 

 

And the Fine Tuned Universe Argument here... https://www.ex-christian.net/topic/84967-the-failure-of-the-fine-tuned-universe-apologetic-argument/

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

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Great list.

 

I would add the ontological argument: If you can imagine something that is the greatest then that thing must exist. You can imagine a greatest possible being, and because existing is better than not existing (unfounded assertion) then this greatest possible being must exist. Weak because I can imagine the greatest possible pink unicorn, but everyone agrees that just because I can conceive of it doesn't mean it exists.

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40 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

Great list.

 

I would add the ontological argument: If you can imagine something that is the greatest then that thing must exist. You can imagine a greatest possible being, and because existing is better than not existing (unfounded assertion) then this greatest possible being must exist. Weak because I can imagine the greatest possible pink unicorn, but everyone agrees that just because I can conceive of it doesn't mean it exists.

I always forget which one the ontological argument is, I mean its so gobsmacking stupid that its hard to even imagine anyone seriously using it.  Of course there are apologists who do use it but I've never understood why.  'Imagination equals existence' is so counter to any logical thought. 

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53 minutes ago, Wertbag said:

I always forget which one the ontological argument is, I mean its so gobsmacking stupid that its hard to even imagine anyone seriously using it.  Of course there are apologists who do use it but I've never understood why.  'Imagination equals existence' is so counter to any logical thought. 

 

Yes - it should have the caveat that it is possibly the stupidest argument you are likely to hear from an apologist.

 

There is only one response to this argument:

 

 

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7 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

Great list.

 

I would add the ontological argument: If you can imagine something that is the greatest then that thing must exist. You can imagine a greatest possible being, and because existing is better than not existing (unfounded assertion) then this greatest possible being must exist. Weak because I can imagine the greatest possible pink unicorn, but everyone agrees that just because I can conceive of it doesn't mean it exists.

 

Wow, this is some sweet sweet bullshit right here. Thanks, LF. I was not aware that people used their Walmart logic this way. 

 

https://gyazo.com/8ae1a572100a88ae06afa41cbe2063b7

 

 

 

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First they would need to define "great".  Is the greatest human the smartest, fastest, strongest, longest lived or greatest philanthropist?  Of course what they really mean by "maximally great" is "god", but does maximally great have to mean all-powerful, all-present and all-knowing, or could you still be lacking in an area and yet still be the most powerful being in the universe?

Then you need to define "possible world", in this case it refers to imagination land and not a real place.  If they admit that then they scuttle the whole argument.

You then have to make the huge jump, that something that exists in imagination land must exist in the real world, and there is really nothing that bridges that gap.

 

The argument should read:

God exists in imagination

Existence is greater than non-existence, therefore god must exist to be the greatest

Therefore god exists

 

There is really nothing else to it.

 

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56 minutes ago, Wertbag said:

The argument should read:

God exists in imagination

Existence is greater than non-existence, therefore god must exist to be the greatest

Therefore god exists

 

With slight adjustments, that is exactly how that argument is presented in undergraduate philosophy before it's ripped to shreds.  The first hurdle is whether existence v non-existence is even a meaningful attribute in the exercise - which, of course, it's not.  The you start down the rabbit hole of definition hell.

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Good list!

 

Another argument is that religion doesn't make people happier, more peaceful, or healthier.  Several "non-believing" societies have higher measures in those categories.

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21 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Good list!

 

Another argument is that religion doesn't make people happier, more peaceful, or healthier.  Several "non-believing" societies have higher measures in those categories.


I would quibble with the claim that religion doesn’t make people happier etc.  I think plenty of people would say that Christianity, Islam etc transformed their lives and made them happier.  These religions wouldn’t have lasted for all these centuries if they didn’t have their appeal.  But we also know that these theistic religions also make some people anxious and miserable.  Plenty of witnesses to that fact here!  Christianity works for some, not for others.  Which by itself says a lot...

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3 hours ago, TABA said:


I would quibble with the claim that religion doesn’t make people happier etc. 

 

I see your point, but am basing that on a world measure of happiness that is done each year.  The USA is #18, and is considered a christian nation.  But I guess there is more to be considered here than religion.

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56 minutes ago, Weezer said:

I see your point, but am basing that on a world measure of happiness that is done each year.  The USA is #18, and is considered a christian nation.  But I guess there is more to be considered here than religion.

I think this is partially covered by the section "God is not necessary", that is saying life can be good without god, that you can achieve whatever you want regardless and can be an upstanding moral person without god.

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On 2/16/2021 at 1:52 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Quantum wave coherence died for your sins.

 

I think it's more along the lines of quantum wave coherence died for your decoherence (sins). But who knows??????

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  • 2 months later...

I think there's also an economic argument against a strict belief systems. It seems like the richer the society, the less the belief. Also, the more the education, the less literalist the beliefs. I don't have handy links but I'll try to find them - basically East Germany is one of the most atheist regions in the world, but it is the poorer part of Germany. Other countries have more secularity and are overall more prosperous with less inequality. I think it kind of shows that religion is kind of a crutch to try and get through stressful situations, and is abandoned when it isn't needed. Kind of like doing a palm reading before a big interview, or doing a tarot before thinking of quitting a job. Or praying when there's mass unemployment, etc. - although I've seen some research showing once someone/a society achieves a broad level of non-religiousness or secularity, major disasters don't shift back to religiosity, it just shifts to other coping mechanisms and perhaps more non-religious spiritualism/mysticism. 

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