Fallen Seminarian Please Help

[Guest someonePleaseHelpMe]

Hello. I'm glad I found this forum. It's my opportunity to share the struggle I'm going through. I've been a christian for 16 years but I'm now at the point where I about to stop believing. Let me tell you about myself without boring you with too many details. I'm a man in his 30s. I became a christian during my first year in college. That was a difficult time for me. My teen years were not so good. I felt lost and insecure about myself. I met students who were involved with Intervarsity christian fellowship on my campus. They shared the gospel with me and I received it. I believed that I was a sinner who's only hope was in Jesus Christ. I became heavily involved in the ministry of Intervarsity on my campus. I even went to daytona beach during spring break to evangelize. Looking back it was silly but back then I was willing to do anything to serve. During my senior year I felt that God had called me to fulltime ministry. I went to a well respected reformed seminary with the idea of becoming a pastor or missionary. I did pretty well academically. But there was one problem: throughout my life I've struggled with a speech impediment. I stutter. Speaking can be difficult and embarrassing for me at times. I remember my father asking me how I was gonna become a minister with a stutter. The problem was obvious to him but not to me. I thought that God would just work it out somehow. Well, it didn't work out and I dropped out midway through the program. I didn't know where my life was going. I eventually found a job and continued studying theology in my spare time. I served in ministries at my local church. After a few years I lost interest in theology. As the years went by my faith diminished bit by bit. I eventually stopped going to church. The last couple years my faith has been hanging by a thread. I have intellectual problems with religious worldviews now. I do not think they're compatible with what we know about the world through science. But intellectual problems are not what I'm interested in discussing. The christian life just didn't work for me. From the time I received the gospel I've wanted to "walk with Lord." But the pull of "sin" was too great. Can former christians please tell me what your "walk with the Lord" was like. If you're a christian I'd appreciate your feedback as well.

[Vigile]

My walk, in short, was one big struggle with "fleshly desire" and a boat load of guilt hanging over me. This pretty much describes my life on a daily basis. Despite the advertising, Jesus doesn't make you free.

[ShiftyEyes]

I became a christian during my first year in college. That was a difficult time for me. My teen years were not so good. I felt lost and insecure about myself.

 

This is very normal. After I passed out of my highschool years I realized just how hard that growing up and becoming your own person period of life is. Alot of people become christians their freshman year of college because the community is so appealing. You belong and have friends. It's comforting during the loneliness of that first college year.

I believed that I was a sinner who's only hope was in Jesus Christ. I became heavily involved in the ministry of Intervarsity on my campus. I even went to daytona beach during spring break to evangelize. Looking back it was silly but back then I was willing to do anything to serve. During my senior year I felt that God had called me to fulltime ministry.

 

This sure looks like "walking with the lord" to me. It's really an emotional state where God is everything to you. Every situation has something to do with God. God is what motivates you to do everything. I've been there. Some christians may say they feel his "presence" at these times, but I didn't (and I believe it's just a part of the emotions and believing that God is there).

 

But there was one problem: throughout my life I've struggled with a speech impediment. I stutter. Speaking can be difficult and embarrassing for me at times. I remember my father asking me how I was gonna become a minister with a stutter. The problem was obvious to him but not to me. I thought that God would just work it out somehow. Well, it didn't work out and I dropped out midway through the program.

It's interesting how God decides to answer some prayers and never the ones that you really NEED to have answered. See whywontgodhealamputees.com for an interesting discussion of this and more. This will also expand on your intellectual doubts (they're important, because they go beyond the emotional state of the moment. They're what will keep you from going back to Christianity during a really dark time in your life. IMO) The whole situation that you were in sounds so frustrating and exhausting... Sorry you had to go through all that.

 

After a few years I lost interest in theology. As the years went by my faith diminished bit by bit. I eventually stopped going to church. The last couple years my faith has been hanging by a thread. I have intellectual problems with religious worldviews now. I do not think they're compatible with what we know about the world through science.

 

I would try to be careful here. Just gradually ending your belief without having real, conscious problems with it can get you in trouble. Stability comes from knowledge, and it's important to know why you don't believe, exactly. The science issue is a start, but I'd encourage you to clarify what you think, and what your doubts are. It sucks while you try to figure it out, but it's better in the long run. Sorry for talking about the intellectual stuff, but I really do think it's important.

 

The christian life just didn't work for me. From the time I received the gospel I've wanted to "walk with Lord." But the pull of "sin" was too great. Can former christians please tell me what your "walk with the Lord" was like.

 

Ok, on to your real question. I kind of went into walking with the Lord at the top there, so I'll move straight on to "sin." I can't go into it too much because I don't know any of the details (and I'm not asking you to share anything more than you are comfortable with), but I'll give some of my personal views on this. Some of the things that modern christianity defines as sin are just plain not wrong. Really, the question should be WHY you did what you did, and not what. If you aren't trying to hurt other people, I would say that whatever you're doing is not wrong. If you are trying to hurt others, there's probably a deeper reason that you need to look for and work out. Doing this I feel like I live a better life than I did when I was a believer. The christian method is to pray and ask God for help, which sometimes works because it focuses your mind on the issue, but often doesn't because there is a real reason for doing what you're doing.

 

I really hope that helps.

 

Shifty

[pitchu]

Welcome to the forums, SPHM.

 

I have no understanding of how I'm to walk with one who is both fully human and fully divine, since I'm merely fully human.

 

(It's hard enough sometimes to walk with a dog who is merely fully canine.)

 

Sin has no application to the divine, so it's reserved as a concept of special torture for those of us who are merely fully human, stumbling as we try to maintain the pace alongside the gloriously mixed-bred Jesus.

 

We are guaranteed to lose this walking marathon, no matter how hard we try.

 

We are assured of feeling shame and guilt when we experience our guaranteed lack of success.

 

Pervasive, unrelenting, imposed shame and guilt serve the purposes of those who would abuse the humanity of others.

 

For those of us who want to use our own humanity for our own human purposes, shame and guilt are self-activated responses to betraying our own chosen principles of ethical living -- a warning system that we need to correct our course.

 

We can always correct how we walk our human course. We can never correct how we walk our divine course, because we don't have one... we simply don't have one.

[kellyb]

I've wanted to "walk with Lord." But the pull of "sin" was too great. Can former christians please tell me what your "walk with the Lord" was like

Hmmm...

This is tricky.

See, when you don't feel close to god, you're told it's because of sin. And there will always be something you can identify as the sin blocking you from god.

It's very convincing when you're in it, but in retrospect it just seems like part of the mind game you're taught to play with yourself.

 

Ask yourself...why wouldn't god heal you of that sin?

I'm sure you prayed about it. A lot.

I know I did.

 

Now I know it's because miracles don't exist, and I was trying to abrogate something that was evolutionarily programmed into me.

I CAN, however, channel instincts into productive, healthy outlets.

But you have to accept that it's part of you, and not something Jesus is going to just take away. (As evidenced by the fact that he didn't, despite your pleas).

[Curtdude]

.....As the years went by my faith diminished bit by bit. I eventually stopped going to church. The last couple years my faith has been hanging by a thread. I have intellectual problems with religious worldviews now. I do not think they're compatible with what we know about the world through science. But intellectual problems are not what I'm interested in discussing. The christian life just didn't work for me. From the time I received the gospel I've wanted to "walk with Lord." But the pull of "sin" was too great. Can former christians please tell me what your "walk with the Lord" was like.....

 

Hi SPHM, Welcome to our corner of sanity.

 

For me, my "walk with the Lord" was only good as long as I had no intellectual problems with the religion. I just "phased out" on the real world and chose to see reality through the filter of evangelical christianity. But as I grew up and time went on, there was no way for me to continually deny the existence of, for example, other religions making sincere contradictory claims, and even competing versions of christianity. Where was the "agreement of believers" and the consistency of the work of the Holy Spirit? Why was the Good and Gentle Shepherd I had been drawn to in my youth seemingly not just indifferent, but desirous of the eternal torture for the majority of humans, in the past and today? Being omniscient, God is supposed to know who chooses him and who goes to hell. These are serious, intellectual concerns that cannot be divorced from our "walk with the Lord" or whatever we want to call our spiritual lives.

 

I think my "walk with the Lord" was part of my membership in a vicious and self-serving cult (evangelical christianity maintains if you don't believe like they do, you're going straight to hell), maintained by constant fellowship (indoctrination sessions) with other like-minded folks, perpetuated by the circular reasoning of evangelical theology ("I feel guilty for [fill in the blank], god told me I would, I feel better after asking forgiveness just like god told me I would, others around me feel the same way, thus this MUST be true," or "Why do the innocent suffer, god said his ways aren't our ways, so the innocent suffer for mysterious reasons, I just have to accept it, WOW doesn't that make sense"), all of these elements worked out over the centuries as christianity evolved into the weird, selfish religion we have today.

 

Ya know, I loved to listen to Jesus music that supported this emotional point of view. I found peace in a world where easy answers aren't forthcoming: it felt good to be a christian. For awhile. Until the doubts and contradictions became too heavy, and also the weight of the christian message became too heavy. Why would anyone be sent to hell for all eternity? That's a VERY LONG TIME. No one has done that much evil. Not even Stalin or Hitler. They deserve it for awhile, but c'mon, what sort of sadist am I that I wouldn't want the Creator of the Universe to ease up on the torch after a couple of millennia of serious, constant torture and agony. Even better, why not just extinguish the soul. But no, not for christians. It's gotta go on and on.

 

Anyways, seems to me that the "walk w/ the Lord" is simply a desire to have easy answers in a hard world, an emotional womb where we are safe. It's hard to look at screwed up people on the street and know that all the money in the world probably wouldn't help their fevered, mentally-ill, drug addicted brain, and even if we spoon fed them with help many would refuse it and go back to living like dogs (not all, but many). It's hard to see starving children and know that many won't survive the night or week in their refugee tents in the middle of nowhere, forsaken and forgotten by us in more affluent countries. There is no Gentle Shepherd to take anyone in their arms and hold them when life hits hard. These are the hard realities of the world, and going out and changing them with our actions and not waiting around for some god to do it for us is too hard. So collectively we choose religion to succor our guilt and help us cope.

[Guest Emerson]

Well you're not alone. Have comfort in that. YOU ARE NOT ALONE. This is part of being human, it sort of feels like that movie The Matrix. You thought that what you believed was real but it isn't. College is hard, the first year is rough simply because it means that there will be changes in your life and its the year that we learn to become adults and take on responsibilities. Its a rough road. You're not the only one who had it rough.

 

Well stuttering can be overcome. Or that's what I heard. There are places that help people with stuttering, I suggest you do a search on google and look for a branch in your area to help you. Well my walk with christ was confusing because I always questioned if I was a christian, I had a lot of skepticism towards the bible and what it said, I didn't agree with it especially with its stance on women, I had a huge problem with everything related to christianity and its theology, as well as to the christian lifestyle. Like how it makes you feel guilty about normal things like being human.

 

I always felt like nothing I ever did was good enough for god, like i was always being judged by him, and i would try "harder" to do good. I got involved with some messed up people, like one time I dated this one guy who said that he was gods prophet and that god told him things about the future, and that we were supposed to get married. I met this guy online, and he was just wacko. But he said that I needed him when it came to god. I really hated him and that's another thing that pushed me over the edge and away from xtianity.

 

You don't really have peace or freedom in xtianity. Not even the writings of C.S. Lewis were good enough for me. Also my faith made me paranoid, and I became impulsive and made irrational decisions at the drop of a hat. I was always worried about god and what he thought and what he wanted and I had NO peace. I was just a paranoid girl.

 

For my own peace of mind, I had to leave. I'm not going to go to another religion simply because all religions are man made and because I was in college, I took World Religions there and learned of how religions came about, and how they borrow from each other, and we had some great debates in that class and I look forward to taking more classes in religion and learning more about them.

 

Is there a god? I don't know. I believe that there is something out there, but I think some of it call it god and some of us call it gods or the universe, powers that be, etc. I still have a way of viewing whatever is out there as god, but I no longer think there is one way of worshipping god.

 

For example, I'm not threatened by Allah and his threats against heathens, so why should I be worried about the threats of jesus christ against heathens? No thanks.

 

 

 

 

 

Hello. I'm glad I found this forum. It's my opportunity to share the struggle I'm going through. I've been a christian for 16 years but I'm now at the point where I about to stop believing. Let me tell you about myself without boring you with too many details. I'm a man in his 30s. I became a christian during my first year in college. That was a difficult time for me. My teen years were not so good. I felt lost and insecure about myself. I met students who were involved with Intervarsity christian fellowship on my campus. They shared the gospel with me and I received it. I believed that I was a sinner who's only hope was in Jesus Christ. I became heavily involved in the ministry of Intervarsity on my campus. I even went to daytona beach during spring break to evangelize. Looking back it was silly but back then I was willing to do anything to serve. During my senior year I felt that God had called me to fulltime ministry. I went to a well respected reformed seminary with the idea of becoming a pastor or missionary. I did pretty well academically. But there was one problem: throughout my life I've struggled with a speech impediment. I stutter. Speaking can be difficult and embarrassing for me at times. I remember my father asking me how I was gonna become a minister with a stutter. The problem was obvious to him but not to me. I thought that God would just work it out somehow. Well, it didn't work out and I dropped out midway through the program. I didn't know where my life was going. I eventually found a job and continued studying theology in my spare time. I served in ministries at my local church. After a few years I lost interest in theology. As the years went by my faith diminished bit by bit. I eventually stopped going to church. The last couple years my faith has been hanging by a thread. I have intellectual problems with religious worldviews now. I do not think they're compatible with what we know about the world through science. But intellectual problems are not what I'm interested in discussing. The christian life just didn't work for me. From the time I received the gospel I've wanted to "walk with Lord." But the pull of "sin" was too great. Can former christians please tell me what your "walk with the Lord" was like. If you're a christian I'd appreciate your feedback as well.

[Lorena Rodriguez]

SPHM,

 

When I was a Christian, as was as moral as it gets. But the guilt never when away. I was always looking for other rules to obey, so I could please God completely.

 

The emotional burden of that made me realize that if God was love, as I'd been told, he wouldn't possibly want me to suffer like that. I realized that people who love me forgive me, allow me to be who I want to be, and don't judge me continually. Why would God want to do that to me?

 

So I dropped the ball. I decided that if god really is love he doesn't want my worship, or my acknowledgement, or my holiness. He wants me to do what is best for me, and I am perfectly capable of figuring that out all by myself. God, I realized, is not an annoying micro-manager.

 

I don't call myself a christian anymore. And I am as moral--or inmoral--as I have ever been. I know that when I do something wrong, I will suffer the consequences of it. So it is my life and my call.

 

I hope you can make peace with the issue soon. Good luck to you.

 

Lorena

[Minus 196]

I can identify with your overall situation. I felt called to full time ministry when I was in early high school, and because of this, I went halfway across the country to attend a private Assemblies of God college with a major in Pastoral Ministry. After three semesters, I realized that this probably wasn't the best judgement call on my part. You see, I'm an introverted person by nature. Nothing extreme - but for introverted personalities like mine, socializing and talking with people is a draining activity and something we don't do naturally with people who are not already close acquaintances. So, kind of like your speech impediment, I figured that taking on a career where I'd have to do this day in and day out might not be the best idea

 

Fortunately for me, I changed my major to music, got a degree in that, and ended up not even using that - went into the IT field. So I'm glad to have been flexible enough to leave the pastoral ministry track before I became trapped in a job that I hated founded on a faith I had lost.

 

I didn't deconvert until well after college, so during this time and all through my 18 years as a Christian, I would classify my "walk with the Lord" as being sincere (naive), strong (a bit over-zealous), and firmly grounded in the Bible (the Christianity meme had me completely brain washed). So if I catch the drift of your question about this, no not all ex-Christians were those of "weak" faith who straddled the fence dabbling in sin, never fully committing (though I'm sure many fall into this category as well). I, and many others here were the real deal. Sold out, honest to God, Holy Rollers. And we still ended up leaving the faith.

 

Finally, let me reiterate what ShiftyEyes mentioned about an intellectual and empirical basis for moving from belief to unbelief. I think this is crucial and couldn't agree more. Emotionalism will carry you on its currents, and unless you've got an objective understanding of why you believe what you believe (or don't believe) you're likely to move in and out of belief with tide so to speak. Just last night I was at concert by Casting Crowns (very popular Christian group - one of the few spiritual functions I've been to lately at the request of my wife). Their music was powerful. The raw appeal to emotion in their message was strong. The multimedia images were compelling. If I weren't able to filter all of it through my ever deepening knowledge of why it's all bunk, I could see myself heading down to the alter all over again in the face of emotional experiences like these. Sadly, several hundred in the arena didn't have that luxury and, like moths to the flame, went forward during the 20 minute altar call . . .

 

The best sit I know to explore the funtamentals of atheism is http://www.infidels.org . Peruse the library section.

 

Best of luck to you as you work through your current situation. I truly hope you are able to use this time and the feedback you get here to gain perpective on your situation and clarify your understanding and your path!

[SunNSand4me]

Walking with the Lord? Well, to me it's simply Christianese ... you know, a typical catchphrase among Christians. I'm sure most of us know how to speak it.

 

Walking with the Lord is equivalent, in my opinion, to doing what the majority of the world's people attempt to do their entire lives: try to reach their personal best, help others, seek joy, meaning and fulfillment. We stumble and screw up a lot along the way and wind up learning a number of important lessons.

 

People can attach God to all of the above ... attach God to their life journeys, challenges and experiences (to make them feel better, because that's how they're taught, because they fear the supposed consequences, because they never stop to really examine that their god is the same as the sun or rain god), but in the end "walking with the lord" is just Christianese for living life and adding a bunch of hoopla to it.

 

Here's an example: I had to go to church last week, so I listened to the youth pastor talk about a mission trip the youth went on. A bunch of them shared their great experiences ... the lessons they learned, how they bonded with each other, how they found satisfaction in serving the people of that area, etc. I believe all of that is real. But to them they were "walking with the lord" and "growing closer to god" and witnessing "god work in our lives." They simply were attaching god to all of these real events and emotions they were experiencing. That's their perspective, so that's how they're going to view it.

 

It all comes down to Christianese.