"I have faith!!!"

[Joshpantera]

I need to make another thread dedicated to faith which corresponds to the separate issue I've started about belief.

 

Because I have a lot of thoughts to put down on being ex christian, not religious, not theistic - but at the same time managing through life with both belief and faith nevertheless. There is more to belief and faith than merely the usual religious definitions and generally accepted ideas about the two. 

 

Since we've had apologists coming through trying to game towards making us confess that we "believe" in things and have "faith" in things, I've decided to try and fully explore those avenues a little bit. With an open invitation here in the Den for any christians to try and do whatever they think they can do with what I will be claiming. 

 

It's no secret that I have different views than some people about faith. In the religious sense, I see faith as very misguided and 

agree with popular atheist arguments against faith from that perspective. But from the mundane, non-religious, secular world of day to day life, I think that faith plays a strong role in the scheme of our existence as evolving animals on this given planet.

 

Once the religious direction is removed, there's still faith to consider. It doesn't just vanish. Which has led me to believe that faith plays a much more central role 'beyond religions' that have popped up in recent years on an evolutionary scale. They are taking this natural, evolution, and survival oriented faith, and they are using IT as a tool which ends up misguiding people - whether consciously doing it or not. 

 

I'll explain more. Recent introspections have led to a need to express this publicly and put these initial thoughts on the chopping block. 

 

I was going through facebook and I saw a post from one of my SDA cousins. It was about how hard it is for the man to be the spiritual head of household and how appreciative she is to her husband, and basically calling attention to the usual BS about biblical roles of the male and such.

 

But it sent me off into a rabbit hole of contemplation.

 

Growing up my father played that role. But what it amounted to was that everyone was gathered around the common "belief" and "faith" that god, no matter what, would provide. And that my fathers strong faith in god was the axis of all good luck, favorable coincidences, and general positive outcome concerning financial problems or whatever else. 

 

At the core, I'm looking at a social structure of a nuclear family of evolved great apes where everyone puts "belief and faith" into an alpha male figure geared towards the means of survival and prosperity. Take the blinders off and we're animals behaving in these certain ways, for these certain reasons. 

 

Now this should NOT apply only to male figures, of course, but in the biblical sense it does. That's one of the misguided aspects in my opinion. It can apply to whoever is out front making things happen and carrying the larger weight of the survival role. Male or female. 

 

So then I look at my current family, stripped down to the core reality, and it's still the same thing minus the bible and religion.

 

My wife and the boys don't doubt that I'll pull it off all the time and make things happen for us. Even when there's no clear indication as to how or why. Based on a history of making it happen all the time, they've developed "belief and faith" in my ability to make it happen for everyone. Now I could be female and doing the exact same thing. Sex doesn't matter from this secular perspective. It's just that in my house it happens to be a male leading the way in the more or less traditional sense of income and such. Minus the religion! Minus religious faith and belief! 

 

And to be honest, the fact that they do believe in me and have faith that I'll keep them provided for drives a burning ambition to meet that standard and never fail them. In the past, all of the things that I've managed to do and manage to pull off on a weekly and monthly basis would have been considered the result of a god in conjunction with strong faith and belief on my part in that god. Just as it was for my father back then. 

 

But the glaring reality is that it never was god bestowing things on my father in the first place. It was all him. He was making these things happen and the god idea is completely made up. No Santa coming down the chimney, no god providing dazzling results all the time. Just human beings with their own minds and consciousness working towards the means of survival and going further into prosperity. 

 

Whatever he was doing that may at times seemed miraculous or from divine intervention, it was just the natural result of some guy who believed and had faith 'in life' that he'd over come adversity, provide, make ends meet, etc., etc. There never was a god involved in it. Or spiritual realms of helping entities guiding things along. Because I'm doing everything he ever did now, minus religion, minus theistic belief, minus theistic faith. Same general results though. Same structure of a family believing and having faith in me to keep things going. 

 

And it all has to do with survival!

 

When things are really challenging, that's when it seems to ramp up and really kick in. I have unwavering faith in my ability to navigate this life and land feet down in any given situation that life presents. Because what else? What is my alternative? I have to live this life experience all the way through to it's natural conclusion. Which involves providing for a family. And the survival of us all. And trying to make it prosperous while it lasts. 

 

I can sit back at age 45 (30 years outside of church and belief) and see that I have always had "faith and belief" within me the whole time, from a natural and nature based core. Coming from our evolution as a species. 

 

Religion, then, while I was still a small child, perverted and misguided this natural set of survival instincts towards a direction of self interest for the denomination in question.  They require that your "faith and belief" be directed to a set of PRESUPPOSITIONAL claims, which, are never first established as true to begin with. And from there, natural, nature oriented "faith and belief" in life and survival that likely come from birth are misguided and misdirected towards a fallacious set of claims! 

 

So what happens then, is that people think that it's this misguided version of "faith and belief" which is giving them all of these results towards their survival and prosperity. Blessings from above. But it isn't.

 

And the fact that godless people like myself can do everything they do and more sort of firms this up. They aren't doing anything in life that atheists can't also do, and even better in some cases. In terms of placing "faith and belief" on god and a particular religion, versus placing "faith and belief" only in mundane, secular, and essentially natural and nature oriented directions. 

 

 

Who thinks what about this topic, and why??????

 

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

6 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

I need to make another thread dedicated to faith which corresponds to the separate issue I've started about belief.

 

Because I have a lot of thoughts to put down on being ex christian, not religious, not theistic - but at the same time managing through life with both belief and faith nevertheless. There is more to belief and faith than merely the usual religious definitions and generally accepted ideas about the two. 

 

Since we've had apologists coming through trying to game towards making us confess that we "believe" in things and have "faith" in things, I decided to try and fully explore of those avenues a little bit. With an open invitation here in the Den for any christians to try and do whatever they think they can do with what I will be claiming. 

 

It's no secret that I have different views than some people about faith. In the religious sense, I see faith as very misguided and 

agree with popular atheist arguments against faith from that perspective.

 

But from the mundane, non-religious, secular world of day to day life I think that faith plays a strong role in the scheme of our existence as evolving animals on this given planet. Once the religious direction is removed, there's still faith to consider. It doesn't just vanish. Which has led me to believe that faith plays a much more central role beyond religions that have popped up in recent years on an evolutionary scale. They are taking this natural, evolution and survival oriented faith and they are misguiding people using IT as a tool. 

 

I'll explain more. Recent introspections have led to a need to express this publicly and put these initial thoughts on the chopping block. 

 

I was going through facebook and I saw a post from one of my SDA cousins. It was about how hard it is for the man to be the spiritual head of household and how appreciative she is to her husband, and basically calling attention to the usual BS about biblical roles of the male and such.

 

But it sent me off into a rabbit hole of contemplation.

 

Growing up my father played that role. But what it amounted to, was that everyone was gathered around the common "belief" and "faith" that god, no matter what, would provide. And that my fathers strong faith in god was the axis of all good luck, favorable coincidences, and general positive outcome concerning financial problems or whatever else. 

 

At the core, I'm looking at a social structure of a nuclear family of evolved great apes where everyone puts "belief and faith" into an alpha male figure geared towards the means of survival and prosperity. Take the blinders off, and we're animals behaving in these certain ways, for certain reasons. 

 

Now this should NOT apply only to male figures, of course, but in the biblical sense it does. That's one of the misguided aspects in my opinion. It can apply to whoever is out front making things happen and carrying the larger weight of it. 

 

So then I look at my current family, stripped down to the core reality, and it's still the same thing minus the bible and religion.

 

My wife and the boys don't doubt that I'll pull it off all the time and make things happen for us. Even when there's no clear indication as to how or why. Based on a history of making it happen all the time, they've developed "belief and faith" in my ability to make it happen for everyone. Now I could be female and doing the exact same thing. Sex doesn't matter from this secular perspective. It's just that in my house it happens to be a male leading the way in the more or less traditional sense of income and such. Minus the religion! Minus religious faith and belief! 

 

And to be honest, the fact that they do believe in me and have faith that I'll keep them provided for, drives a burning ambition to meet that standard and never fail them. In the past, all of the things that I've managed to do and manage to pull off on a weekly and monthly basis would have been considered the result of a god in conjunction with strong faith and belief on my part in that god. Just as it was for my father back then. 

 

But the glaring reality is that it never was god bestowing things on my father in the first place. It was all him. He was making these things happen. 

 

Whatever he was doing that may at times seemed miraculous or from divine intervention, it was just the natural result of some guy who believed and had faith 'in life' that he'd over come adversity, provide, make ends meet, etc., etc. There never was a god involved in it. Or spiritual realms of helping entities guiding things along. Because I'm doing everything he ever did now, minus religion, minus theistic belief, minus theistic faith. Same general results though. Same structure of a family believing and having faith in me to keep things going. 

 

And it all has to do with survival!

 

When things are really challenging, that's when it seems to ramp up and really kick in. I have unwavering faith in my ability to navigate this life and land feet down in any given situation that life presents. Because what else? What is my alternative? I have to live this life experience all the way through to it's natural conclusion. Which involves providing for a family. And the survival of us all.

 

I can sit back at age 45, 30 years outside of church and belief, and see that I have always had "faith and belief" within me the whole time, from a natural and nature based core.

 

Religion, then, while I was still a small child, perverted and misguided this natural set of survival instincts towards a direction of self interest for the denomination in question.  They require that your "faith and belief" be directed to a set of PRESUPPOSITIONAL claims, which, are never first established as true to begin with. And from there, natural, nature oriented "faith and belief" in life and survival that likely come from birth are misguided and misdirected towards a fallacious set of claims! 

 

So what happens then, is that people think that it's this misguided version of "faith and belief" which is giving them all of these results towards their survival. Blessings from above. 

 

But it isn't. And the fact that godless people like me can do everything they do and more sort of firms this up. They aren't doing anything in life that atheists can't also do. In terms of placing "faith and belief" on god and a particular religion, versus placing "faith and belief" only in mundane, secular, and essentially natural and nature oriented directions. 

 

 

Who thinks what about this topic, and why??????

 

 

 

 

I have come to love your perspective. It has really caught my eye since I've been here and even helped influence my own perspectives. It's true. We are the masters of our own destiny. And I think religion may be the reason some people fail to become successful in society. 

 

The reason I say this is that the belief, that some external force outside yourself, will make or break you is dangerous. For example, a Christian fervently praying to God to get a higher paying Job may lead that Christian to believe that this is a mountain that God is going to move for him. Maybe this position requires a certain amount of education or experience that the Christian lacks. However in the Christians mind this is a minor obstacle for his God. Obviously said Christian has little to no chance of actually getting the job as he has applied for something beyond his abilities. 

 

When this Christian is turned down he will be disappointed and may just chaulk it up to "not being in God's plans for him". He may get mad at God. He may just continue to put in for better Jobs waiting on God and not taking it upon himself to make himself more appealing for the position. Or he might. Who knows. But either way, if the Christian does get a bite on a job all the praise and glory goes to an imaginary being. It is good to have pride in yourself for achievements and I think a lot of that gets lost in Christianity, bc as you said, all of the good things that come to a Christian aren't his or hers. No, they are blessings from God. 

 

As for you or I, we would look at the criteria for the Job. If we didn't qualify we would set a goal and take necessary steps to achieve a reasonable qualification for the position. Then we would spruce up our resume and put forth our best effort during the interview. If we failed we would know we needed to set some new goals and try again later. 

 

Looking back on my life, my career started soaring when I stopped depending on God. Before I would always talk about how I was a Godly man during the interview, mention being a preacher, etc. In my field it doesn't make a damn whether your Christian or not. All of that talk was wasted words not even pertaining to my qualifications for the job. As a result I think I bombed some interviews in the name of God. Now several promotions later. I'm glad I only have to depend on me and not A deaf dumb God like Jehova to get me to the next level. 

 

I have faith, I have faith in myself and my ability to overcome. I haven't always made the right decisions and I'm sure I'll still fuck shit up from time to time, but in the end. I'm the master of my destiny and overall do a decent job getting mine and my families wants and needs. And I'm very thankful that my destiny doesn't lie in the hands of the Christian God. Dudes a real prick sometimes so far I've succeeded in bring two children to adulthood and provided for myself and family. Now I'm getting to a point I just want to wind down and enjoy life for awhile. Get the house paid off and get ready to retire in about 20 years. 

 

I know I won't. But I wish I could see the day when humans evolve past religion and become united in a common cause. I feel that humanity as a whole could achieve any goal we decided to shoot for. I feel we are seeing the start of that process in our lifetime. I guess I'll just have to be thankful for that . 

 

 

 

 

[Joshpantera]

11 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

I have faith, I have faith in myself and my ability to overcome. I haven't always made the right decisions and I'm sure I'll still fuck shit up from time to time, but in the end. I'm the master of my destiny and overall do a decent job getting mine and my families wants and needs. And I'm very thankful that my destiny doesn't lie in the hands of the Christian God. Dudes a real prick sometimes so far I've succeeded in bring two children to adulthood and provided for myself and family. Now I'm getting to a point I just want to wind down and enjoy life for awhile. Get the house paid off and get ready to retire in about 20 years. 

 

I suspect that a hell of a lot of ex christians have plenty of faith, even though they may not look at it that way. And there's nothing wrong with having it or admitting as such because nature seems to have ingrained within us a sense of believing in ourselves and having faith in our ability to navigate a given lifetime. 

 

My dad as remained an agnostic theist through life. He survived a pretty bad covid complication this year. He knows that the bible isn't literally true and has inaccuracies and problems. But he thinks that there's a god and that people just don't really understand who or what the god actually is. He thinks this, in large part, because of all of the things that have worked out for him over the years. Especially thinking he was near death in the hospital and this mystery god kept him alive. 

 

The mystery god, of course, has always been himself. 

 

His unwavering belief and faith while focused on an unknown god up there somewhere, has been driving the coincidences, happenstances, and the general consistency of things working out more so than failing. But I don't think he'll ever see it that way. And I'm not going to get into it with him. I've decided to just leave it be and let him think whatever he wants about it. 

[midniterider]

My wife and I often say, in the face of some adversity, "we'll make it through, we always do." The statement is partially based on evidence of continued survival up to this point but also unreasoned, evidence-less confidence in the future.

 

"Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see." Heb 11:1

 

Faith of some kind is built in to humanity. Whether theistic or not.

 

 

[Joshpantera]

1 hour ago, midniterider said:

My wife and I often say, in the face of some adversity, "we'll make it through, we always do." The statement is partially based on evidence of continued survival up to this point but also unreasoned, evidence-less confidence in the future.

 

"Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see." Heb 11:1

 

Faith of some kind is built in to humanity. Whether theistic or not.

 

 

 

Yes, you see where I'm going with this. 

 

It tends to keep coming up with some of the apologists who have been here recently. Usually in the form of claiming that we have faith in science or we have faith that god isn't real or something like that. 

 

So I took off for the weekend of the 4th pulling my new pontoon with my F250 Diesel. It has a rebuilt engine that I'd only been using for about 3 weeks. I get about 45 minutes down the road on the way to the keys and it starts shutting itself down. My wife was pissed because this is the third time the truck has had engine problems on a trip. I coasted with the momentum of the truck and boat over to a turn around median. Called the the guy that I bought it from. He sent a wrecker to pick up the truck and hitch the trailer. I didn't get mad, I just went to thinking about how I can get down to our paid vacation anyways. No rental trucks were available. So I got a U-Haul Van, hitched up my boat, and went to the keys anyways. The guy who sold me the truck is trading it out for a different one off the lot, a year newer model. 

 

So perspective is one issue here.

 

It was better off breaking down there where the truck could be towed back to the lot within the same county, instead of breaking down way out of anywhere in the everglades which is where it could have broke down. I made the most of the situation through positive thinking instead of going into subjective rage fits over a bad situation.

 

It has the same makings of a religious, "everything happens for a reason." Because that always boils down to perspective and shifts or changes in perspective. Things can always seem as though they happened for a reason, if there is no fixed reason behind it. It just seems that way based on perspective. 

 

In a bad situation, I was lucky enough to make the most of it and get through ok. Because of my mindset, perspective, and keeping to positive thinking oriented problem solving. My wife was ultimately happy that we got to our paid vacation despite the road blocks along the way. And was proud that I handled it very level headed and didn't just blow a fuse and go off into subjective based ranting like her ex husband would have done given the same situation. And he IS christian. Of little faith I assume.....

 

But some else with a christian view would have probably stood up front at church the next week and given a testimony to everyone about how god saved their family trip. Stretching the truth and appealing to emotion while doing it. It could have been so much worse, but god saved the day! 

 

Except there is no god, he didn't save the day, and my truck breaking down wasn't part of any preplanned agenda or destiny, shit just happens! 

 

I believe in myself and have faith in myself to navigate (impromptu as times) the shit that does happen!!!

[Joshpantera]

This matter of mundane, modernized faith, continued to unravel. 

 

There was a problem with the second truck right away after it came out of the shop. The guy offered to buy my truck back. So I took the money and went down to another lot and picked up a 5.0 liter V8 gas F-150.  The red carpet rolls out and problems are solved as they arise for the most part. 

 

Praise not be to any god or jesus!!!!

 

Praise be to positive thinking, belief in one's own ability, rational mindedness, logical deduction, and faith that whatever the problem it will work itself out accordingly!!!!

[TABA]

33 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

There was a problem with the second truck right away after it came out of the shop.

I imagine you’ve lost faith in that outfit to some extent.  

[Joshpantera]

13 hours ago, TABA said:

I imagine you’ve lost faith in that outfit to some extent.  

 

 

[Robert_Tulip]

Mark 11:23: Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be granted him.

 

The only way this makes sense is that the mining industry requires trust in the systems of coordination needed to finance and deliver large scale projects.  A company has to have faith in the rule of law and the ability of governments to protect their interests.  Otherwise the risks of investment would not be worth it.  Faith is needed in the reliability of international trade, trusting that payment will be made on time and that the currency will retain its value as a medium of exchange.  

 

All these points are about the psychology of confidence, the positive attitude of relying on natural providence.  It is not about believing in miracles or God, as Christian tradition suggests, but that we need to work together and have faith in each other to achieve any practical result.

 

Mining companies successfully turn stones into bread (Matt 4:3), not through miracles but through their faith in rational investment of finance and skill.

[LogicalFallacy]

My quick thoughts here are that what you guys are calling "faith" is really just some level/degree of trust or confidence in something, or at worst irrational hoping. Like me, I have faith that one day my bank account will have 1 million in it, or is that just hoping?

 

When we use "faith" like this we take it out of its original context and use it to describe something for which we already have words for.

 

One atheist I've listened to describes faith as believing in things for which there is no evidence. If you had the evidence you wouldn't need faith to believe. 

 

So you might say you have faith in the mechanic to fix your car, but unless he is a really shitty mechanic what you really have is trust and confidence in his skills based on (possibly) prior experience, his qualifications, and other customers good reports.

[Joshpantera]

47 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

One atheist I've listened to describes faith as believing in things for which there is no evidence. If you had the evidence you wouldn't need faith to believe. 

 

Yes, like believing you'll get through whatever pops up and be just fine. There's no evidence about the conditions of future situations. But you can hold to a belief that you'll be fine and get through whatever comes your way. Even though the truth of the belief or faith is an uncertainty. To think otherwise could be counter productive and cause unnecessary stress or worrying about what may or may not be. 

 

47 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

So you might say you have faith in the mechanic to fix your car, but unless he is a really shitty mechanic what you really have is trust and confidence in his skills based on (possibly) prior experience, his qualifications, and other customers good reports.

 

This is true too. But seems to outline the issue in reverse order back at the christian with religious faith.

 

Their faith is trust and confidence in the presupposition of gods existence and the truth of the judeo christian bible over any other gods or religious works. It's interchangeable in both directions. 

 

Faith, belief, confidence, and trust.