BH's Theory of Stupidity

[Joshpantera]

This sort of sets the stage prior to the D-K Effect. Have a watch if you're unfamiliar: 

 

 

This can be applied to all variety of issues. But let's look at it against christianity. 

 

Growing up in church where everyone's pretty much under a spell of stupidity like this, it was frustrating as hell to have to continue on after waking up and realizing just how stupid everyone (down the most credentialed among them) really are. It was a real let down, to be honest. Everyone who I once regarded as smart turned out to be complete idiots in reality. No one left to look up to. I had to look elsewhere to find that again. In the secular world and away from religious affiliation. 

 

His case is extreme, of course. But I get what he's talking about. At least the adventist's didn't have concentration camps and execute people. But we had dorms we couldn't leave except on designated times and the persecution of anyone who disagreed. Certainly not like living in nazi Germany, but it was enough to have lasting, recurring dreams about for decades going forward. 

 

I think of this often. Apologists are clearly under the spell of stupidity. Reason is lost on them. This is why. Facts of science or logic are lost on them as well. This is why. You can't fix stupid unless stupid is somehow liberated. And it usually requires liberating oneself from the stupidity. No one else can do it for you. It really burns christians asses to have to face these issues of stupidity. But demonstrating to them where, why, and how they are being stupid will always necessarily fall on deaf ears. Unless they liberate themselves from the stupidity. Something has to click from within. 

 

 

[Joshpantera]

Looky here. Laws of stupidity: 

 

 

 

I agree with just about all of this. Stupidity transcends rank, power, crendentials, and everything. Christianity was once powerful. High ranking. Full of high credentials. And dominant. But it was always based on stupidity the entire time. Regardless of any other factors. It was stupid to believe in christianity. And everyone here was just as guilty as the next person where the spell of stupidity is concerned. It's embarrassing, sure. But it's true. 

 

I'm just happy to count myself among those who were able to liberate themselves from the spell of christian stupidity and move on. 

 

 

[♦ Fuego ♦]

I haven't read his writings, but he sounds like a pastor who is more interested in doing good than in religion. About 4 minutes in, the first video said that liberation internally from stupidity first comes from an external liberation. They didn't really say what that meant. Perhaps in his historic context this meant destroying Hitler to break the "spell", and no reasoning would suffice to create change. I think it was Stalin that called such people "useful idiots", those driven by propaganda to be obedient to a cause while those at the top steer things to their own benefit. 

The 2nd video is intended to be about stupidity, but also highlights other aspects that deserve a closer look. In Portland, the city council seems to be in the "helpless" category, watching the city quickly degrade into a haven of addicts and crime ("bandits") while inventing useless solutions like "add more sidewalks and green spaces". They can't admit that they have not a single clue how to stop the barbarians and willfully create a civilization. They can't admit that they themselves are the cause of the problems growing. 

The 2nd video underscores the concept that we are too tolerant of barbarians in our midst. We consider that civilization requires us to be inclusive of those that destroy civilization, and that is a mistake that is coded into laws. I just saw a video from downtown Portland of a guy brazenly sawing off and stealing a catalytic converter in broad daylight on a city street. He knows the police won't do anything (if they did, it is catch and release due to COVID), and he knows that citizens won't put a bullet in him to stop him because they themselves would then be treated as felons and lose everything because they stopped a barbarian. Our system is flawed. 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

On 10/27/2021 at 12:13 AM, Joshpantera said:

But it was always based on stupidity the entire time.

 

I guess in a way it was always stupid. But I think the stupidity was more acceptable when most everyone was illiterate and depended on those in positions of authority and learning to tell them what was "true". 

 

I can't hardly blame the popper for following along with the masses, when the masses were sometimes knowingly being decieved by those that were over them. 

 

But in this day and time in the modern world its different. People now hear the logic but are still so indoctrinated that they turn blind eyes and deaf ears to it. And your right. Most of us here have all been guilty of it. Like you I am glad my eyes were opened. 

 

Could you imagine the guilt that people from past times, such as the Spanish inquisition, would feel if they knew what we know now. Having done horrendous acts on innocent people in service of an imaginary God. That'd suck. 

[Joshpantera]

1 hour ago, Fuego said:

About 4 minutes in, the first video said that liberation internally from stupidity first comes from an external liberation. They didn't really say what that meant. Perhaps in his historic context this meant destroying Hitler to break the "spell", and no reasoning would suffice to create change. I think it was Stalin that called such people "useful idiots", those driven by propaganda to be obedient to a cause while those at the top steer things to their own benefit. 

 

I guess that's what they meant. I was wondering what they meant by external as well. I guess this all ties into what the movie Valkyrie outlined? Seems to fit the historical timeline and assassination attempt. 

 

1 hour ago, Fuego said:

In Portland, the city council seems to be in the "helpless" category, watching the city quickly degrade into a haven of addicts and crime ("bandits") while inventing useless solutions like "add more sidewalks and green spaces". They can't admit that they have not a single clue how to stop the barbarians and willfully create a civilization. They can't admit that they themselves are the cause of the problems growing. 

 

Isn't this where you guys legalized drugs like Portugal? 

 

If so, then it sounds like it hasn't worked out at all. Doesn't Portugal report a decrease in drugs and crime after legalizing it? I haven't looked at the stats.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

I saw "drugs like Portugal" and had to re-read it a few times. 

 

Drugs being decriminalized only changed who gets arrested. Instead of clogging the jails with addicts, there's room for violent criminals. But with the virus, they only lock up nasty ones. I read an article about a guy who even roughed up a cop and was let go! But the streets of what used to be an upscale section "The Pearl" is now like a ghetto. Businesses left, others are complaining loudly to the council about feces, needles, and aggressive mentally deranged people threatening their employees. Lots of smashed windows and theft. Graffiti EVERYWHERE. Plus the idiots who want police disbanded. That movement seems to have gone rather quiet now, except for one councilwoman. 

[Joshpantera]

13 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

I guess in a way it was always stupid. But I think the stupidity was more acceptable when most everyone was illiterate and depended on those in positions of authority and learning to tell them what was "true". 

 

Yeah, for sure. They had nothing to gauge what they were being told against. 

 

43 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

But in this day and time in the modern world its different. People now hear the logic but are still so indoctrinated that they turn blind eyes and deaf ears to it. And your right. Most of us here have all been guilty of it. Like you I am glad my eyes were opened. 

 

We have all the means necessary to fact check religious claims, but apparently some people prefer living as if they're in the bronze age now. When my inlaws are down she wants to pander to their SDA quirks. No TV on sabbath on all of that. I let it go. It would cause my wife too much grief to force the issue and make them deal with it if they're in our house. She doesn't want that kind of confrontation or strife. 

 

I tanned my own relatives hides, though. I made everyone deal with my having no respect for SDA beliefs. And all it did was make the majority of them eventually stop with SDAism as well. Including my grandparents late in life. Only two of my aunts are still SDA. And to be honest, it's pretty stupid of them to remain. All of this crap has been thoroughly debunked and disproven. They just refuse to open their eyes to it. 

 

That isn't very smart.

[Joshpantera]

23 minutes ago, Fuego said:

I saw "drugs like Portugal" and had to re-read it a few times. 

 

Drugs being decriminalized only changed who gets arrested. Instead of clogging the jails with addicts, there's room for violent criminals. But with the virus, they only lock up nasty ones. I read an article about a guy who even roughed up a cop and was let go! But the streets of what used to be an upscale section "The Pearl" is now like a ghetto. Businesses left, others are complaining loudly to the council about feces, needles, and aggressive mentally deranged people threatening their employees. Lots of smashed windows and theft. Graffiti EVERYWHERE. Plus the idiots who want police disbanded. That movement seems to have gone rather quiet now, except for one councilwoman. 

 

Maybe a movement of 'cleaning up this town' will arise. But again, like anything else, as it would gain in number various stupidity would attach itself to that as well. Maybe cleaning up the mess is possible. But there would probably be some inherent level of new associated stupidity that would follow. Like deciding that being too liberal isn't working to knee jerking to too conservative or something like that. 

[pantheory]

On 10/26/2021 at 8:53 PM, Joshpantera said:

This sort of sets the stage prior to the D-K Effect. Have a watch if you're unfamiliar: 

 

 

This can be applied to all variety of issues. But let's look at it against christianity. 

 

Growing up in church where everyone's pretty much under a spell of stupidity like this, it was frustrating as hell to have to continue on after waking up and realizing just how stupid everyone (down the most credentialed among them) really are. It was a real let down, to be honest. Everyone who I once regarded as smart turned out to be complete idiots in reality. No one left to look up to. I had to look elsewhere to find that again. In the secular world and away from religious affiliation. 

 

His case is extreme, of course. But I get what he's talking about. At least the adventist's didn't have concentration camps and execute people. But we had dorms we couldn't leave except on designated times and the persecution of anyone who disagreed. Certainly not like living in nazi Germany, but it was enough to have lasting, recurring dreams about for decades going forward. 

 

I think of this often. Apologists are clearly under the spell of stupidity. Reason is lost on them. This is why. Facts of science or logic are lost on them as well. This is why. You can't fix stupid unless stupid is somehow liberated. And it usually requires liberating oneself from the stupidity. No one else can do it for you. It really burns christians asses to have to face these issues of stupidity. But demonstrating to them where, why, and how they are being stupid will always necessarily fall on deaf ears. Unless they liberate themselves from the stupidity. Something has to click from within. 

 

 

 

Yeah, although it's just a theory, that's how I use the word stupid. Not as an intellectual deficiency, but by having an ignorant mindset and/ or behavior. Like Forrest Gump's mother said: "stupid is as stupid does." Even if one's intellect is high, if they believe in the books of Genesis and Revelations literally, they can't be too bright -- dare I say they're stupid?  .

[freshstart]

22 minutes ago, pantheory said:

Even if one's intellect is high, if they believe in the books of Genesis and Revelations literally, they can't be too bright -- dare I say they're stupid?  .

I used to think this (and still do sometimes) but I think the issue is (and I believe there's been research on this), people make decisions based on emotion rather than logic. We decide what to eat, what job to pursue, who to sleep with, etc. based on emotional satisfaction, not logic. Even the smartest people marry a person that isnt right for them, or make silly financial decisons, etc., etc. So why wouldn't the same thing apply to a belief system that doesn't make logical sense? Emotion rules our decisions.

To me that poses 2 questions: (1) how does this common flaw (allowing emotions to guide us rather than logic) work for evolutionary survival purposes? Perhaps there is good reason for this? And (2) what would it take to make a logical choice more appealing when the illogical choice feels like the better choice?

[Joshpantera]

3 hours ago, freshstart said:

I used to think this (and still do sometimes) but I think the issue is (and I believe there's been research on this), people make decisions based on emotion rather than logic. We decide what to eat, what job to pursue, who to sleep with, etc. based on emotional satisfaction, not logic. Even the smartest people marry a person that isnt right for them, or make silly financial decisons, etc., etc. So why wouldn't the same thing apply to a belief system that doesn't make logical sense? Emotion rules our decisions.

To me that poses 2 questions: (1) how does this common flaw (allowing emotions to guide us rather than logic) work for evolutionary survival purposes? Perhaps there is good reason for this? And (2) what would it take to make a logical choice more appealing when the illogical choice feels like the better choice?

 

These are great questions! 

 

1) The answer to number one coming out of some of the consciousness research studies I've been looking at has to do with fitness. The ways in which we perceive are fitness oriented and it starts there. Somewhere in all of that is where we've evolved to be emotional minded like this. It had fitness qualities in order to exist now, basically. Or it wouldn't exist now would be the alternative. It would have been phased out. The details need further focus and attention. 

 

2) We're examples of the second question simply by being ex christian. For some reason, we have both decided against the 'feel good' choice that never quite adds up in favor of logical choices that can seem cold and harsh. So why have we done that?

 

In my case it's a devotion to seeking truth. When I realize that something isn't true, no matter how good it may make me feel, I let it go. Because truth is more appealing to me than not-truth. Even when the truth turns out to be agnostic minded reasoning. When not really knowing IS the truth, then that's that. It's the truth that's appealing. Confessing lack of knowledge is taking the higher ground in that way. No one can pwn you without providing the knowledge in question. So you win. In the case of god, this is how the debate always turns out. The agnostic wins over the gnostic. Because the gnostic can not fulfill the burden of proof requirement for positive claims. 

 

But that's a problem. Large scale appeal to figuring out what can be demonstrably true doesn't look to be possible right now. The incentive is an unwavering quest for seeking out truths. But it only works with people who care. People who aren't into figuring it out for themselves just go tribal and follow others. 

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

On 11/1/2021 at 1:50 AM, freshstart said:

I used to think this (and still do sometimes) but I think the issue is (and I believe there's been research on this), people make decisions based on emotion rather than logic. We decide what to eat, what job to pursue, who to sleep with, etc. based on emotional satisfaction, not logic. Even the smartest people marry a person that isnt right for them, or make silly financial decisons, etc., etc. So why wouldn't the same thing apply to a belief system that doesn't make logical sense? Emotion rules our decisions.

To me that poses 2 questions: (1) how does this common flaw (allowing emotions to guide us rather than logic) work for evolutionary survival purposes? Perhaps there is good reason for this? And (2) what would it take to make a logical choice more appealing when the illogical choice feels like the better choice?

 

Freshstart,

 

I agree with Josh.  These are excellent questions.

 

 

(1) how does this common flaw (allowing emotions to guide us rather than logic) work for evolutionary survival purposes?

 

Ok, how about this? 

 

For hundreds of millions of years animals have been guided solely by instinct.  This is because the apparatus for making logical decisions (a complex brain) simply wasn't around.  The large primate brain is a newcomer and carries within it a great deal of baggage from the instinct-driven past.  We know this because we've discovered that the neocortex sits on top of earlier, more primitive structures in the brain.  If this is true, then logical thinking and logical thought is also a newcomer; a new thing that sits upon the greater mass of primitive instincts and behaviours, much as the bulk of an iceberg is hidden below the waterline.

 

In evolutionary terms animals have managed to survive and thrive without logic for 99.9 % of the history of life on Earth.  So, clearly logical thought does not play a key role in the survival of the fittest.  At least, not for most of the animal kingdom.  Most animals get by on instinct and if something works well enough then there is no evolutionary incentive to change anything or to take unnecessary risks.

 

I suppose what I'm struggling to say here is that we seem to be encumbered by our instinct-driven past and its little wonder that the new kid on the block (logic) struggles against all of these impediments.

 

 

(2) What would it take to make a logical choice more appealing when the illogical choice feels like the better choice?

 

Nothing can do this.

 

This is a case of comparing apples and oranges.  Logic is not about sugar coating anything.  It is simply a tool that delivers the goods, with no subtext and no agenda.   

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

[Joshpantera]

On 10/26/2021 at 11:53 PM, Joshpantera said:

I think of this often. Apologists are clearly under the spell of stupidity. Reason is lost on them. This is why. Facts of science or logic are lost on them as well. This is why. You can't fix stupid unless stupid is somehow liberated. And it usually requires liberating oneself from the stupidity. No one else can do it for you. It really burns christians asses to have to face these issues of stupidity. But demonstrating to them where, why, and how they are being stupid will always necessarily fall on deaf ears. Unless they liberate themselves from the stupidity. Something has to click from within. 

 

Was it mere coincidence or synchronicity that @AustinAustin showed up following my posting this thread?????

 

Did I summons a perfect example of the exact type of christian stupidity in question????

[midniterider]

2 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Was it mere coincidence or synchronicity that @AustinAustin showed up following my posting this thread?????

 

Did I summons a perfect example of the exact type of christian stupidity in question????

 

I think you summoned Austin with your mind, Sir. 

 

 

[Joshpantera]

On 11/12/2021 at 12:45 AM, midniterider said:

 

I think you summoned Austin with your mind, Sir. 

 

 

 

He sure gravitated his way right to us making for a perfect example of this stupidity issue among christian thinkers. 

[Joshpantera]

Watch this, motherfucka's!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

[Joshpantera]

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I wonder how much confirmation bias might affect our assessment of our own intelligence in relation to the signs presented in these two videos.

[Edgarcito]

On 12/3/2021 at 7:37 AM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I wonder how much confirmation bias might affect our assessment of our own intelligence in relation to the signs presented in these two videos.

I confirm my intelligence all the time...lol.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

I confirm my intelligence all the time...lol.  

At least somebody does...

[Joshpantera]

Well, we've had no shortage of working examples of stupidity around here from visiting christians lately. I feel like I've lost a few IQ points while getting caught up reading the newest apologetic thread!