Jesus surviving

[Wertbag]

I've been reading up on the beliefs of some minor Chritian sects who believe Jesus survived the crucifixtion.  I'm actually surprised by how many biblical points they have to support their claim, I had always thought death and resurrection was a given, but the argument has quite a few lines of reasoning (to be clear I don't believe this is true, I firmly sit on the "have no idea what really happened" group).

- Firstly, Jesus was up on the cross for only 6 hours.  This is not long enough for people to die of exposure, as is atested to by the other two prisoners being alive at that point.  It was only the breaking of the legs that commonly was used to speed up death, and the book clearly tells us they only did the others and never Jesus.

- The only test done to see if Jesus was alive was to jab him in the ribs.  The story reports he bled but didn't react.  A dead person doesn't bled as the heart is no longer pumping.

- It is reported that Jesus carried his cross on the long walk to his place of execution.  If he was physically broken this would have been an impossible task.  He had to be strong and fit enough to do this, so if he was lashed prior to the walk, it cannot have been enough to cripple him.

- The person that got him down was Joseph, a rich official.  He requested the body be given to him, apparently by directly asking Pilate.  With no reason to block an official taking a corpse, this was allowed.  So the only person with the body, who "prepared" the body and who used his personal tomb for the resting place, was a self professed Christian.  Joseph had both time, money and motive to want to save and assist Jesus.

- The story of doubting Thomas, demanding to physically touch the wounds to confirm it was true, points to the risen Jesus being in the flesh and not just a spirital visitation.

- Having survived being executed the story goes that they needed to smuggle him away so that the Romans didn't have a second try at it.  By saying "he has resurrected, isn't it a miracle?" any reports people made of having seen him could be seen as a blessing and not as a physical escaping prisoner.

- This also makes other quotes such as returning within the current generation make sense.

 

It does fit surprisingly well, it requires no supernatural elements and also accounts for the differences in the gospel accounts (different amount of knowledge of the truth, different attempts to hide the truth).  Of course one of those things that we will probably never know one way or the other.  There is still no confirmed tomb or execution site, let alone remains.

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

10 hours ago, Wertbag said:

 

Of course one of those things that we will probably never know one way or the other.  

 

You got that right.  

[Sexton Blake]

Josephus was a Jewish historian. Among other things, he wrote about the atrocities of Herod but somehow forgot to mention Herod murdering JEWISH babies, while wanting baby Jesus dead.

 

Josephus was a friend of the Romans, and when one day he saw an old friend crucified on a cross, he asked that he be brought down and released. I suppose after THREE DAYS on the cross, they thought he had paid for his crimes, so he was released him to Josephus.

 

And after some basic medical treatment (which in those times would have been very basic), the man not only survived but recovered.

 

And yet we are told that Jesus died after just several hours. Jesus was young and in good health (else the "sacrifice" would have been poor) so how did he die so quickly, as hearsay stories written decades later tell us?

 

Did he die?

 

Mandrake root was a medicine of the time. A little could help relieve pain and more could put a person in a coma.

 

Jesus we are told died shortly after drinking of a sponge with vinegar or cheap wine on (same thing). Both liquids were used to dilute medicines, like mandrake root.

 

So was Jesus just in a coma and not dead? A guard who was on that odious duty probably for some minor misdemeanor, would not know the difference between a deep coma and death, and was hardly likely to examine him. A spear poked in the side and no reaction was good enough.

 

Jesus was quickly taken away and a hundred weight of a healing herb, aloes, as well as myrrh (also used for healing) were used on him.

 

The disciples who knew Jesus as no others ever would never expected him to rise again, so did not wait outside his tomb for that to happen.

 

After 3 days, Jesus was recovered enough to talk to them, still having the holes in his wrists (not hands, as they would not support a man) and feet.

 

AND THE FACT THAT HE TOLD THEM NOT TO TELL ANYONE.

 

WTH? Jesus genuinely rises from the dead. He goes and sees the Jewish elders who see it is a miracle and all fall down and worship him. Jesus then goes to Pilate with the Jews and after questioning his soldiers, etc, he recognises it as a miracle too. He tells his bosses in Rome and they come to realise that (in John Wayne's words), truly this is the Son of God, and by the middle of the first century AD, christianity has spread throughout the Roman Empire.

 

Instead we have four different accounts, with the rising up to the clouds (where heaven was) known to be late fakes, and John where Jesus did "many things", which no one bothered writing about.

[mwc]

     To the point of Josephus here's the actual mention from his autobiography:

Quote

and when I was sent by Titus Caesar with Cerealius, and a thousand horsemen, to a certain village called Thecoa, in order to know whether it were a place fit for a camp, as I came back, I saw many captives crucified; and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance. I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; (421) so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician's hands, while the third recovered.

     Some notice it has a few parallels to the gospel account.  There are three being crucified.  Two are simply dead.  One, which we might assume will also suffer their same fate, is taken away only to come away alive.  This is all done by a gracious benefactor that is enabled by personal appeal to the Roman governor.

 

          mwc

 

[mwc]

On 12/21/2021 at 11:40 AM, Wertbag said:

I've been reading up on the beliefs of some minor Chritian sects who believe Jesus survived the crucifixtion.  I'm actually surprised by how many biblical points they have to support their claim, I had always thought death and resurrection was a given, but the argument has quite a few lines of reasoning (to be clear I don't believe this is true, I firmly sit on the "have no idea what really happened" group).

- Firstly, Jesus was up on the cross for only 6 hours.  This is not long enough for people to die of exposure, as is atested to by the other two prisoners being alive at that point.  It was only the breaking of the legs that commonly was used to speed up death, and the book clearly tells us they only did the others and never Jesus.

     The main reason to die from crucifixion is asphyxiation not exposure.  The downward force places pressure on the lungs which makes it so you cannot breath.  A person will then push upwards to catch a breath, which causes great pain and stress, which is a part of the torture.  What happens then is there is a cycle where the person struggles to breath, relaxes, starts to suffocate, then pushes themselves back up to breath again for as long as possible.  This goes on until the person becomes exhausted then finally cannot lift themselves and runs out of air.  The whole cycle is fairly agonizing.  Are there worse tortures?  Yeah, but this one is right up there as pretty shitty since the person on the cross essentially tortures themselves.

 

     Now, if you want to prolong the suffering you can add a little "seat" for the person to rest on.  There's no good description of this seat or how it worked.  However, based on some descriptions some think it was pointed and the person would sort of impale themselves during the rest cycle.  Since people were crucified naked this is plausible.

 

     The idea of a crucifixion was for it to last to prolong the suffering and for it to be humiliating for the person on the cross.  We're told in the gospels, or maybe it's just sort of hinted at, that while they're having a crucifixion it also needs to be finished by Passover.  These things are at odds.  The Romans would have either not cared and left them up anyhow, or not wanting to risk causing an issue at a major festival, held the prisoners until it was over and then killed them (assuming they were dead-set on crucifying them and couldn't waiver from that and kill them another way).  So, a person dying quickly could happen but the other two were crippled so they would die quickly (again, before Passover).  This aspect of the story really makes little sense.

 

 

On 12/21/2021 at 11:40 AM, Wertbag said:

- The only test done to see if Jesus was alive was to jab him in the ribs.  The story reports he bled but didn't react.  A dead person doesn't bled as the heart is no longer pumping.

     I'm not sure what the significance of this is.  I though they stabbed him in the heart?  I may not be remembering it correctly though.  I can't say that this was a common practice for a crucifixion (at least from memory...maybe it was but I'm leaning against it).

 

On 12/21/2021 at 11:40 AM, Wertbag said:

- It is reported that Jesus carried his cross on the long walk to his place of execution.  If he was physically broken this would have been an impossible task.  He had to be strong and fit enough to do this, so if he was lashed prior to the walk, it cannot have been enough to cripple him.

     Most crosses were already situated.  That is to say the main post was already in the ground.  The Romans wouldn't have wanted to situate everything all at once.  What we see in plays/movies is a huge cross comes out, is laid down, a bunch of hammering happens, then it is lifted and dropped into the hole.  At that point no one cares.  It's all done.  On with the story.  However, like any post going into a hole it would need to be set in place with dirt so it doesn't wobble around and cause problems. 

 

     So to avoid this you fix the post before you start.  Now that it's in place you bring your condemned and stick them to this post.  If we're dealing with a lower-t looking cross then all you need to carry is the cross beam.  It's probably still heavy but not as heavy as a whole cross with both pieces.  Also, we're told in g.Mark that someone else carries the cross anyhow.  That aside though we then bring the person to post.  Put them on the ground and attach them to the cross beam (tie or nail them).  Then we only need them high enough off the ground to get that asphyxiation torture cycle going so we can put them on a stool and fix the cross beam (which now has our victim attached) to our main post.  Nail their feet to the main post and remove the stool.  Put a little note above their head to show their crime and you're done.  They torture themselves to death for the benefit of passers-by.

 

On 12/21/2021 at 11:40 AM, Wertbag said:

- The person that got him down was Joseph, a rich official.  He requested the body be given to him, apparently by directly asking Pilate.  With no reason to block an official taking a corpse, this was allowed.  So the only person with the body, who "prepared" the body and who used his personal tomb for the resting place, was a self professed Christian.  Joseph had both time, money and motive to want to save and assist Jesus.

     I mentioned this is my other post.  I'm not saying it is or isn't but this has parallels to Josephus.

 

          mwc

 

[Wertbag]

10 hours ago, mwc said:

I'm not sure what the significance of this is.  I though they stabbed him in the heart?  I may not be remembering it correctly though.  I can't say that this was a common practice for a crucifixion (at least from memory...maybe it was but I'm leaning against it).

The passage says "But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.", it doesn't appear to mention the heart.  If they were looking for a physical reaction to pain then both the dead and comatose would give the same lack of reaction.

 

13 hours ago, Sexton Blake said:

Jesus was quickly taken away and a hundred weight of a healing herb, aloes, as well as myrrh (also used for healing) were used on him.

I hadn't even noticed the quantity before, but a hundred weight is ~75 pounds or 34kg, that is an absolutely insane amount of spice.  They weren't just annointing him, but straight up burying him under a mound of spice!

But as you say Myrrh was a famous healing ingredient, as it could be used to naturally plug wounds.  Apparently Roman soldiers would often carry it as a kind of liquid bandage.  It fits very well with a surviving Jesus.

 

While I don't hold that this is the true answer, it has proven useful in a couple of conversations I've had where a Christian has said "There are no other explanations to the empty tomb".  I can mention there are Christian sects who believe he survived, and it fits the evidence surprisingly well.  True or not, it does give an alternative option, which should mean the supernatural idea being touted as the only possible answer, is at least not as clear cut as they believe.

[Wertbag]

Interesting detail that I found, the common held image of Jesus being flogged to the brink of death is actually not said in the Bible. The Passion movies make it seem like a well known fact that the Romans used a cat of nine tails, that it was spiked or barbed, that Jesus would get 39 lashes and that he'd be left a bloody wreck. But the only mention (in 3 gospels as 1 didn't even mention it) is "Then Pilate took Jesus and had him flogged". That's it, a single sentence in all gospels. Almost like it was such a non-event as to hardly be worth mentioning. 

 

We don't know what they would have used to flog Jesus, as the Romans had used staffs, rods, lashes, sticks and whips of many kinds. 

We also don't know that he would have got 39 lashes, as that was the Jewish custom and not the Roman one. The Romans just said the judge will decide and as we already see Pilate not wanting to punish or kill Jesus it would make sense for him to be lenient. 

So equally likely to the blood soaked images of Passion movies would be 10 lashes with a cane. Painful but not a critical injury. 

[mwc]

2 hours ago, Wertbag said:

Interesting detail that I found, the common held image of Jesus being flogged to the brink of death is actually not said in the Bible. The Passion movies make it seem like a well known fact that the Romans used a cat of nine tails, that it was spiked or barbed, that Jesus would get 39 lashes and that he'd be left a bloody wreck. But the only mention (in 3 gospels as 1 didn't even mention it) is "Then Pilate took Jesus and had him flogged". That's it, a single sentence in all gospels. Almost like it was such a non-event as to hardly be worth mentioning. 

 

We don't know what they would have used to flog Jesus, as the Romans had used staffs, rods, lashes, sticks and whips of many kinds. 

We also don't know that he would have got 39 lashes, as that was the Jewish custom and not the Roman one. The Romans just said the judge will decide and as we already see Pilate not wanting to punish or kill Jesus it would make sense for him to be lenient. 

So equally likely to the blood soaked images of Passion movies would be 10 lashes with a cane. Painful but not a critical injury. 

     I would think that in this sort of case that we might imagine the punishment would parallel that reserved for slaves.  The Jews weren't citizens and so they wouldn't have any sort of rights under the law.  They would have had a higher status than slaves but when we're dealing with these sorts of punishments the Romans could be harsh.  The fact that we're even talking about crucifixion means we're talking about that level of punishment.  So how many lashes could a slave get?  There's no limit since they're property.  Usually, the number seems to be around 30 or so but there's no actual limit. 

 

     If I say "He went to the bathroom" in a modern, Western, context you likely have a good idea what is being said and the line stands pretty well on its own.  Sure, it's a bit vague but overall enough information is provided so we understand one another.  However, if something unusual happens during this trip to the bathroom then I should mention it otherwise this is just a typical trip to the bathroom.  The usual things happen while this guy is there.  The same thing might be assumed for this throwaway line.  This was a typical flogging for someone in this situation.  A person from that day and age just understands and moves on, whereas, we're left wondering exactly what that means. 

 

     Let's assume it is a real event though.  The number may simply not have been known.  What I'm saying is that during this part of the passion no one who is a part of jesus' entourage is actually present.  So only Romans and miscellaneous others are present to watch and they may not be keeping a proper count (especially if no limit was ordered).  That's why we should assume it was typical.  And since they weren't citizens and this was largely a slave related punishment we might as well the flogging was as well.  So it may have been fairly harsh though typical for a slave in that situation.

 

          mwc

 

[mwc]

12 hours ago, Wertbag said:

The passage says "But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.", it doesn't appear to mention the heart.  If they were looking for a physical reaction to pain then both the dead and comatose would give the same lack of reaction.

     Hmmm...I don't rightly know.  This may be the only place that such a reference is made.  So I would think that any answer is just pure speculation or some amount of educated guessing.  In that respect I suppose any answer is just about as good as any other.  I guess we can crucify a few folks then poke them to find the answer to this question but that may not be worth finding the answer.

 

          mwc

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

This is a lot like trying to decide if the King's Cross scene in Harry Potter represented a literal death or if he was just in some kind of magical reverie.  It's easier when you understand that the characters are ficticious. 

[Wertbag]

2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

This is a lot like trying to decide if the King's Cross scene in Harry Potter represented a literal death or if he was just in some kind of magical reverie.  It's easier when you understand that the characters are ficticious. 

Do you hold to the mythicist position then? Not that Jesus existed and was just a man, but he never existed at all? 

[mwc]

1 hour ago, Wertbag said:

Do you hold to the mythicist position then? Not that Jesus existed and was just a man, but he never existed at all? 

     I hold this position but I'm willing to entertain others since it plays into my overall enjoyment of history.

 

     Ultimately, real or mythological, it ain't no skin off my nose.

 

          mwc

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, Wertbag said:

Do you hold to the mythicist position then? Not that Jesus existed and was just a man, but he never existed at all? 

I hold no position beyond being certain that jesus, as described in the gospel, never existed.  The character may have been patterned after a real person, just as JK Rowling may have been inspired by real people.  Further than that, I care not to venture.

[freshstart]

On 12/21/2021 at 2:40 PM, Wertbag said:

It is reported that Jesus carried his cross on the long walk to his place of execution.  If he was physically broken this would have been an impossible task

Yet according to Luke 23, Simon of Cyrine carried the cross behind him while Jesus spoke to women along the way.

 

Also in Luke, Jesus tells one of the other people hanging on a cross next to him,  “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” 

I guess Jesus took a vacay in paradise for 3 days before returning from the dead.

 

I'd love a Christian to explain how Jesus' "sacrifice" was different than any other person who has been unjustly tortured and killed. According to the bible, Jesus died, went to paradise,  then came back to earth to say goodbye to his buddies, then went back to paradise again.  How does this serve as substitutional punishment for an eternity in hell for billions of people? He suffered for what? Six hours?

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

jesus was inconvenienced for your sins.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

5 hours ago, freshstart said:

Jesus took a vacay in paradise for 3 days

 

Well, more like 1.54 days, despite the Jonah reference about days and nights. Died slightly before sundown Friday and they count that as the first day rather than an hour, in the tomb sundown Friday to sundown Saturday (24 hours), up at dawn on Sunday (maybe 12 hours of night). 1+24+12 is just over a day and a half. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

8 hours ago, Fuego said:

 

Well, more like 1.54 days, despite the Jonah reference about days and nights. Died slightly before sundown Friday and they count that as the first day rather than an hour, in the tomb sundown Friday to sundown Saturday (24 hours), up at dawn on Sunday (maybe 12 hours of night). 1+24+12 is just over a day and a half. 

But a day with god is like 1,000 years... wait... That means jesus is still dead... never mind. 

[mwc]

10 hours ago, Fuego said:

 

Well, more like 1.54 days, despite the Jonah reference about days and nights. Died slightly before sundown Friday and they count that as the first day rather than an hour, in the tomb sundown Friday to sundown Saturday (24 hours), up at dawn on Sunday (maybe 12 hours of night). 1+24+12 is just over a day and a half. 

     Turns out Jonah spent less time in that whale than we all thought.

 

          mwc

 

[Moonobserver]

On 1/6/2022 at 6:44 PM, Wertbag said:

"But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water."

This suggests that the red and white corpuscles had  separated, indicating death. Still, there are numerous questions to ask about other aspects of the crucifixion.

[Myrkhoos]

1 hour ago, Moonobserver said:

This suggests that the red and white corpuscles had  separated, indicating death. Still, there are numerous questions to ask about other aspects of the crucifixion.

I didn't know this happens at death.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

In the last few years some people died that I had known most of my life.  Reading their obituary, attending the funeral, and listening to talk about them afterward, I asked myself,  "Is this the same person I knew??"   Recently my sister and I were discussing my father and what led up to his death 30 years ago.  Her memories of him and the events that led to his death were very different.  If Jesus were actually a person, which I decided he may have been after reading the Gnostic gospels, I can only imagine how he and what happened to him got totally distorted over the years.  

 

Then add to that a theory I heard recently that he was an extraterrestial "hybird".  Mary got pregnant by artificial insemination (virgin birth), and his assention in the end was by being levitated up into a spaceship and taken away "into the clouds".   He was put here by advanced beings to enlighten us with a message of love.  And may have been in a trance during the crucifiction??  (if it actually happened)

[Joshpantera]

On 12/21/2021 at 2:40 PM, Wertbag said:

It does fit surprisingly well, it requires no supernatural elements and also accounts for the differences in the gospel accounts (different amount of knowledge of the truth, different attempts to hide the truth).  Of course one of those things that we will probably never know one way or the other.  There is still no confirmed tomb or execution site, let alone remains.

 

 

What it does is introduce another type of apologetics that undermine the very message and point of the gospel. The projection by the character jesus about himself. The christian message is that since jesus died and returned from death, whoever believes in him can have the ability to do the same. To suggest jesus didn't die, or resurrect, is to toss aside the christian message in and of itself. 

 

⁹ As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”

 

If jesus didn't die, then the prophecy about jesus raising from the dead, which is very clear, introduces another failed prophecy and more biblical contradiction. But this isn't something that the bible introduced whereby contradicting itself in this case. The bible clearly lays a scenario where the character of jesus in the myth is portrayed as dying, resurrecting, and ascending up to heaven. Then returning from heaven with angels for the end times. 

 

The contradictions in this case come from people misreading the myth and trying to twist it in a direction that the myth clearly didn't go in. It doesn't say that he'd return within a generation alive, it says that he'd die, resurrect, ascend, and then return from heaven up above and with host of angels for a final judgement. After which the earth would be made new, fire cleansed, and all the rest that the myth entails in context. 

 

Basically, the whole thing folds when analyzed. 

 

 

 

 

[Joshpantera]

On 1/7/2022 at 11:39 AM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

This is a lot like trying to decide if the King's Cross scene in Harry Potter represented a literal death or if he was just in some kind of magical reverie.  It's easier when you understand that the characters are ficticious. 

 

The Cruci-fiction!!!!

 

Settles everything.......