Visions Of Heavenly Creatures

[Guest Emerson]

Do you guys think that Joan of Arc and others who saw visions were just crazy? I think this is the case. I could never sit down and write a book of "scriptures" and yet this is what many people did throughout the ages. I have no need of starting my own religion or my own belief in who god is or whatever. I also have no need anymore of worshipping any god.

 

So why is it that so many people felt they had an experience where they thought they saw heavenly creatures revealing themselves? Like Joan of Arc, if she existed then she died for nothing.

Someone once told me that the mentally ill are attracted to religion? Is this true? Would love your input and opinions.

[Lycorth]

Whoever told you that the mentally ill are attracted to religion is a bigot. That, and a moron. What dearth of intelligence does it take to come up with a blanket statement like that?

 

Whether or not Joan of Arc saw visions, no one can say. I'm sure many people who claim to see visions are nuts. Especially when it comes to an all-powerful, all-present, all-knowing god who ought to know enough to appear to everyone in order to facilitate belief. But in the end, who knows what they are really seeing?

 

In many of the world's religions, there are traditions about noncorporeal life-forms, what would be called spirits. I believe noncorporeal life-forms exist, and can sometimes interact with the tangible world, most likely if X number of conditions are met (and what they are is beyond my guess). There are most likely such spiritual beings of all moral persuasions, from the very benevolent to the very malevolent. Perhaps those, in some cases, are what people have seen. Especially in the case of the evil-natured ones, who appear in the form of this god or angel and encourage people to do crazy shit.

 

Or else they could all just be nuts, but one pat answer to explain what must be millions of occurences throughout human history is just plain illogical to me. Until all possibilities are ruled out, all possiblities have to be entertained. I think some so-called visionaries are whackjobs, and others are seeing actual apparations, be they good or evil or whatever.

[pandora]

Temporal lobe epilepsy is often given as a reason for supernatural visions. These people are in fact drawn to religion and they often have a very deep spiritual life. However, that is not a mental illness.

 

Schizophrenics also sometimes have elaborate systems worked out that are of a supernatural nature.

 

I have never had a vision or heard God's voice. I have had strange dreams, and strange ineffable experiences while under the influence of certain chemicals, but no near death experiences or any other mystical experience that caused me to interpret my experience as proof of God. Some people do interpret certain states of consciousness obtained via psychedelics and meditation as supernatural, however. I did not experience what they experienced, so I cannot speak for them personally, even though I do suspect that those interpretations are delusions.

 

We have to be careful when we critisize people's mystical experiences... they were very real to the person that has had that experience. You don't have to be mentally ill to be convinced that an out of body experience, auditory hallucinations, a loss of the sense of time, and the like are truly proof of a dualistic supernatural world.

 

IMO, we don't have proof that certain states of consciousness are merely that... we don't have proof that certain brain waves and activity open up other worlds to us. I don't think this other world exists, but I know that we haven't really proved it either way.

[jasonwhatever]

Well, the devil also can inspire visions and prophecies; in fact, he has been doing that since the foundation of Christianity to form the harlot church, Catholicism. Has anyone seen the vision of mary that was videotaped over a coptic church in egypt? This is well-documented. The vision's intent was to lead people into idolatry, and this the devil has done for centuries in his false church, catholicism. Also, he has given stigmatas and visions to many catholic saints throughout the ages....counterfeiting the true Church of God, such as among false saints as Bernadette of Lourdes, Padre Pio, Catherine Laboure, Katherine Ann Emerich (from which Mel Gibson based The Passion movie), and many many others.

 

These things are very real, and the devil has been infiltrating the church ever since its inception, even as he was causing the Israelites to go astray into worshipping false gods and the falsely-called "queen of heaven" from the beginning of even judaism just about.

[jasonwhatever]

I once had a dream....

 

There was a green field with green trees in the background, and a wet tilled plot for gardening in the front. It look like it had just rained. The field look ready for planting.

Then out of the air some hands started to pour gravel over it instead. But a man in a white robe off to the left held out his hand, and stopped them, saying "Don't. For if you build it..." and then I said "they will come."

 

About two weeks later in the religion section of the newspaper there was a headline that read "If you build it..."

 

It reminded me of that dream. If this was from God, what was He trying to say? I was never the type to be a preacher. And it certainly seems that there are more than enough Churches to go around.

[Guest Emerson]

I know your struggling Jason but let's not turn this into another Jason thread. No offense, like I told you before, its probably better if you discussed your doubts at the christian forum since you believe that christianity is the truth. Here's the link again. http://forum.cmcentral.com/

 

"if you build it they will come" is a popular line from the movie "field of dreams" and its been so popular that everyone in America uses it. It doesn't have any special meaning.

[jasonwhatever]

"if you build it they will come" is a popular line from the movie "field of dreams" and its been so popular that everyone in America uses it. It doesn't have any special meaning.

 

 

Yeah, hopefully Jesus is not into quoting hollywood movies.

[LosingMyReligion]

I tend to agree with Varokar

 

Joan of Arc was an actual historical figure, who definitely made an impact due to her involvement in her country's affairs.

 

Even though I no longer believe in Christianity I do believe in the afterlife. So there is no clear cut answer as to whether or not Joan's belief was induced by hallucinations(as might have been the case being that their medicinal techniques were nowhere near as advanced) or if she really did see spirits who guided her to aid in setting her people free...

 

Whatever the reason it worked, as she was a revolutionary.

[Ouroboros]

Visions can be induced by drugs, mental problems and mass hypnosis. And it's very consistent and can be repeated in testing environments. And it can be explained how it works.

 

Visions from deities or evil forces can never be repeated or tested in a closed environment. And we can never explain how it works, how this meta-physical entities communicate from dimension x into dimension 1-4.

 

What's the more likely answer. I vote #1.

[jasonwhatever]

Why would angelic beings guide Joan of Arc in setting her people free, when there are hurricanes, many wars, disasters, etc throughout history, and yet nobody speaks of having visions from angels telling them what to do to avoid it? Why was there no angelic warning at 9-11? It doesn't make sense. The revolution that Joan of Arc was minor on a historical scale. And as a side note: one pope condemed Joan of Arc as a heretic, and a later one declared her a saint. Talk about confusion.

[Ouroboros]

It sure is confused when religion, especially "revealed" religion, is involved. As humans we tend to connect the dots that kind of match up, and forget the ones that don't.

 

If I made a prophecy here, right now, about anything.

 

And then let's say it happened, I would be declared a prophet if we were in a religious establishment.

 

If it didn't happen, most would forget that I even said anything.

 

So how we handle things as humans, are that we emphasize things that have resemblance, we do pattern recognition, and we exclude things that don't fit the pattern. Many times the pattern are just random things, but we still see them.

 

Conspiracy ideas works the same way, and seeing Jesus on a Toast, or the Cute Bunny on some pieces of tile.

[pandora]

I take issue with saying that "mental problems" cause hallucinations... it is a organic process that causes hallucinations, like any other PHYSICAL disorder... it isn't "mental." The vast majority of schizophrenics who have these kinds of visions would not be "crazy" if it weren't for the underlying physical disorder. Emotionally unstable people are no more likely to have hallucinations and visions than anyone else... please stop saying that. I'm with Varokhar here.... if you don't mean "emotionally unstable" when you say "mental problems", then please specify... but to most people, unfortunately, the phrase usually indicates a problem in character or composition, that the person is weak and can't handle life, or inferior in some other way; and not a true disorder or disease.

 

Anyways, if that's not what you meant to imply, I am sorry, but if it is, please educate yourself, Hans and Emerson... this is the kind of ignorant prejudice (and I mean that in a nice way, really!) that holds society back.

 

Jason--I really respect you and your courage to come here, but I am confused. On the one hand, you say Satan exists and the Catholics are his church, with no room for doubt. And then in the next moment you want affirmation that you are wrong about Christianity... are you just in limbo right now? Or are you still a Christian? If you still want to be a Christian, why are you trying to explain away how you think God might work in this world? Just curious... maybe you can start another thread for this so we don't hijack this one. I think many of us here are still wondering what is up with you and it might help you out if you explained your intentions and where you are at right now....

[Ouroboros]

Pandora, you're right, I didn't mean to include people with ADD, OCD, emotional problems, pathological behaviors or manic depressed people. The word I used was to wide in definition, so I'' try to use more specific words in the future. What word or phrase would be better in this situation? Please advice. Maybe "people suffering from certain kinds of chemical imbalance causing hallucigenic visions?" (but it's a bit long).

[pandora]

*wipes forehead* I knew you knew better, but I just wanted to make sure! It's a hot topic for me... so yeah, that would work. You were just trying to save um... typing time or something.

 

Emerson, don't be afraid to say something if you really did mean that, just know that you might want to read up on some stuff before you come to conclusions. I see you down there.

[Guest Emerson]

Well no offense if someone is mentally ill, I don't know what else to say.

Sometimes if someone realizes that they are mentally ill they might try to go to church to get healing, or go to preachers like Benny Hinn and try to get healed at his conferences. When I say "mentally ill" I mean someone who has an illness that causes them delusions like schizophrenia.

 

Mentally ill has nothing to do with emotional problems. Again we're not being insensitive here but how else do you describe someone? Yeah I know "there's no such thing as normal, what is normal?" But for the sake of science and simplified terms, that's just what I say. I mean a lot of people have emotional problems but they're not mentally ill. Again, this is a touchy subject and I'm sorry if I upset you pandora and others. Although you can be mentally ill and have emotional problems. I was a psych major so I still use the word mentally ill. I'm not going to apologise for using proper terms but I am sorry for hurting anyone. I don't want to do that.

[Ouroboros]

Pandora. Correct. I just simplified my wordings, or generalized. A tendency I think we all do now and then, even without thinking about it.

 

And the funny thing is that I'm a stickler to when other people do it, so when I do and someone points it out, I can only admit my mistake. This is the same way how people generalize statements about Jews, Blacks, Atheists, Americans, Europeans etc... And I really don't like it. But I do respect when someone admit they did it unintentionally.

[Guest Emerson]

Here's the thing Pandora. On my stepfather's side, there's a cousin of his who's much younger, a second cousin, and we grew up together and her behavior was so stranger growing up. One moment she was happy, the next moment she was yelling at me and others and just being so mean. I just thought it was her personality.

 

Last year we found out that she had bipolar disorder when she tried to commit suicide. So I'd say she's "mentally ill" but I don't get a joy out of it and I'm sorry she has to go through that because its very painful for her. Its hard for her to accept that she's not "normal" and that she goes to a psychiatrist and has to go to take her medicine. Which for the most part she doesn't do and it gets her agitated. Well that's much more than I've cared to share but there you go. I'm not trying to be insensitive.

 

This is going into pc territory, I think. You know what? This is why I sometimes hate forums, no matter what not everyone can be happy. I think I'm done here.