Divine Hiddenness

[Wertbag]

The argument from Divine Hiddenness is probably the point at the heart of most atheists stance.  I've watched some apologetic videos and counter arguments from people like Paulogia and Matt Dillahunty, who both did great jobs at clarifying the argument.  As with most apologetics I'm left thinking the question is not clearly answered and the problem remains a gaping hole.

 

If God wants us to know Him, then He is all-powerful so could do so with no effort.  If He is good, loving and wants a personal relationship with everyone, then making Himself available would achieve that goal better than hiding.

Some Christians will say "God can't appear, you can't look on the glory", which flies in the face of all of the times He directly communicated in the OT (burning bush, voice from the sky, column of fire, as an old man etc).  Some will say "You wouldn't believe if He did appear", and yet the tens of thousands of ex-Chrisitans who did seek Him with all their heart would have loved for Him to show himself.  In doing so He would have gained thousands of devout followers.

"He's already obvious due to <insert apologetic argument of choice>" which ignores the thousands of competing religions, numerous versions of the bible, splits within Christianity and tens of thousands of denominations.  Turning up would result in a unified church, clarity in the holy books, clarity in the laws and clarity on what He wants.

"Well, what would convince you?"  How about anyone doing Elijah's test?  He was able to call fire from the sky to incinerate an ox, and when the followers of the other religion could not achieve the same result they were butchered.  If it was good enough proof back then, why not now?

"He doesn't want to create robots" or "Doesn't want to remove freewill"  But freewill is just the ability to choose.  Having more facts doesn't remove freewill, it just means the decisions you make are done so with a full understanding of the situation.   Maybe you will use that freewill to choose to turn your back on Him, even if that were true that doesn't mean everyone else on the planet would do the same.  Even if He would only get a tiny fraction of the world come to Him once He was known, that would be a net benefit and something He apparently wants.

"He only wants a relationship based on love, not blind obedience"  But how do you come to be part of a relationship if the other party won't even talk to you?  If you knew God and could see the good and understand why He does the things He does, then loving such a being becomes so much easier.  Its like being asked out on a date and refusing to go unless the person admits to loving you first.  How about having a conversation first?  Get to know each other?  What if I like Him but don't love Him, is that good enough or does the creator of the universe really need my individual devotion?

 

You are left with two obvious possibilities, either He can't or He won't.  Either of those options flies in the face of Christianities claims.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

I think a lot of theology about free will and such came about because of the deafening silence and non-action of the Bible god. They had to fill in the void with reasons why he's still there but acting like one of the dead idols he mocks in Isaiah. They are happy to point to stories about amazing cures and magical sheep breeding, but then have to have excuses for why he does nothing now. The Pentecostals are perhaps the oddest, still insisting that nothing has changed and looking for ANY tidbit that they can insist is a powerful demonstration of god's glory. 

[freshstart]

3 hours ago, Wertbag said:

He doesn't want to create robots" or "Doesn't want to remove freewill"

I love how Christians always claim to know what God wants. How fucking presumptuous it is for any believer to claim they know the mind of God, the creator of the universe.

[walterpthefirst]

3 hours ago, freshstart said:

I love how Christians always claim to know what God wants. How fucking presumptuous it is for any believer to claim they know the mind of God, the creator of the universe.

 

1 Corinthians 2 : 16.

 

Specifically, the last sentence.

 

[TABA]

These forums are filled with moving accounts of members who searched, begged, for some sign that God was really there and that he had any interest whatsoever in their existence and in their struggle to hold onto faith.    It’s almost as if the god of the Bible died some time in the first century CE, when all divine activity seemed to cease.  Could be he was electrocuted by one of his own fucking lightning bolts.  

[alreadyGone]

10 hours ago, TABA said:

... Could be he was electrocuted by one of his own fucking lightning bolts.  

 

You know how dangerous it can be to play around with high voltage..  

 

 

 

[alreadyGone]

20 hours ago, Wertbag said:

..

Some Christians will say "God can't appear, you can't look on the glory", which flies in the face of all of the times He directly communicated in the OT (burning bush, voice from the sky, column of fire, as an old man etc).  ...

 

If he would be incapable to communicate directly to a human being without his mere presence vaporizing your face, how much of a God could he really be?

 

The OT declares that he sent angels as messengers many times.

Mary didn't have her face vaporized when she was told that she was gonna be walking around with God in her womb for nine months.

 

People are going to believe what they wish to believe.

If it feels good then they'll make up any line of reasoning to support that belief.

And if doing that makes them feel 'chosen', sanctified, and accepted, they'll even kill to support it.

 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

It ain't logical.  That's for sure!