Stupidity or naivety - I don't know what's inside me - again..

[Aibao]

 

You let me ask questions, for which I thank you very much, I took a long time to have the courage to post my distress again ... people are fed up with my questions)

 

Disarming my faith into prime factors, trying to discover the truth, I collect both Christian and atheistic literature. Whenever I reach for a book that speaks for faith, I feel a rush of negative emotions, fear, anxiety, sudden depression, sadness ... and I heard somewhere that everyone will find the truth according to their beliefs and it all depends on their attitude. So if I have a negative attitude towards Christianity - I will find the truth in atheism, although atheism does not have to be true .... my mind is so confused - do you know that? Even in the Bible there are verses saying that those who refuse to believe God will give a strong illusion and go to hell ... I don't remember which verses they are. ...

Anyway, while reading books on how religion came into being, my mind started to realize that religion was created by people who might not know that, for example, a dream is a dream and interpreted a dream or some optical illusion as a revelation from God. Anyway - people with schizophrenia can see, you can say - the spiritual world - it's full of angels or demons, but nobody cares, because nobody except these people sees it and knows that medicine considered these cases a disease.

However, when looking for literature (I feel like studying religious studies and theology), I came across a book written by Paul Eshleman, who is the creator of? co-creator? the 1979 film about Jesus. The book is called "I Just Saw Jesus". I did not read or buy it, I just looked at what it is about and it is allegedly about the miraculous events that took place during the filming of this movie: a lot of African warriors converted after watching this movie, a group of angels scared the thieves who tried to steal the film equipment, people full of pain caused by the Hindu curse, they were healed after prayers of Christians, generally miracles, miracles, miracles, God's work, God's power .... I tried to find critical information on this topic on various atheistic blogs, but found nothing. It makes me wonder, since so many amazing things happened during the filming of this movie and after watching it, why is it so quiet on the internet? Or maybe I missed something ...

Similarly with miracles and healings in poor countries, in the so-called Of the Third World - people are raised from the dead, there are statements of Africans on YouTube about how God resurrected a woman, for example, because she had several children and did not want to leave them orphans, she spoke quite seriously and with excitement ... ) that it is in such countries that God works, not in America, not in Europe, not where something can be verified, documented and investigated, but where it cannot be done, because there people have strong faith, precisely because there is no medical advancement there. Although I think that now there is progress and slowly ...

In summary, what can be learned from such stories full of miraculous events? If miracles happen somewhere in Africa, according to the Bible, they are true Christians because they believed properly, as evidenced by miracles - so .... you can even try and believe - there are no miracles in your life, you are damned ... this is the first problem, although for me it resolves itself in a way - because whatever you do, you have no chance, so you can let go of all this religious research and confusion ... on the one hand, relief.

but the famous question: what if? ruins the whole thing. Well, what about books that are factual after all, not fiction, and the author talks about it by presenting his evidence and documented miracles in medicine (here I'm talking about the book "Man myth Messiah"). How do you counter this evidence? Does the author falsify the results or is he making it up? But .... is he making up? Christians are afraid to lie because they are afraid to sin ... so what? Any ideas?
 

[walterpthefirst]

Disarming my faith into prime factors, trying to discover the truth, I collect both Christian and atheistic literature. 

 

If you carry on doing this Aibao, you will never properly disarm your faith.

 

How do I know this?  I tried doing it myself and it failed miserably.  In searching around I found myself going around in circles.  But eventually I realized that what I was doing was just avoiding facing up to the final killing off of my faith for good.  Deep down, a part of me still wanted to believe and so long as I could fool myself into believing that I was doing something to disarm my faith, that was good enough.  But, as I said, in actuality I was putting off and avoiding the really big decision.

 

Aibao, I can tell you how I killed my faith.  But, bear in mind that what worked for me may not work for you.  All I can do is relate to a way of doing it.  My way.  Whether that works for you or not I cannot say.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter. 

 

 

[♦ Fuego ♦]

We know from decades of research that brain chemistry has an enormous effect on how we perceive the world and our selves. Minor changes in brain chemistry have dramatic effects. Those changes can come from genetic issues, disease, physical and emotional trauma, extreme fear, and eating or injecting various substances. The brain is essentially a chemical computer and virtual reality device. We perceive things imperfectly, but usually well enough to get by. We can dream things that don't exist, and the further a brain gets from a normal balance of chemistry, the more the dreams seem intermingled with reality. Imagination runs with absurd ideas and even pretends to be gods or demons. 

 

In the past couple of years I went from mostly stable and happy to almost a stunned silence and feeling unmotivated to do even fun things. Some of this is a genetic disposition towards anxiety and depression that I got from my parents. I never realized that they fought this, and I suspect that they thought they were normal. But my siblings and their offspring are largely on meds to help them just get on with life. It never bothered me until I had a conflict with a neighbor (who was bipolar and acting out aggressively) and that tipped me over the edge into feeling mortal-danger panic when it was just a mere annoyance. Others I know struggle with schizophrenia and hear voices and see things that are not present. Paranoia is another overwhelming aspect of this awful disease. 

 

Some common drugs like cannabis or certain mushrooms are natural ways to have the brain experience change, often good change but sometimes not. Alcohol is another brain chemistry changer, but it is a toxin and can be addictive. I've seen others destroy themselves with hard drugs, including the most beautiful woman I'd seen who wrecked herself with heroin because of the temporary feeling it gave her. She now appears about 40 years older than she is and walks with two canes. 

 

All that to say that brain disorders and drugs aren't seeing into a world of actual gods and devils, they are perceptions that are faulty and based on chemical changes. Perceptions for us are based in our brain chemistry. Church is uses imaginary beings to instill fear of an insane bloodthirsty god who hates all that we are as humans, but by conformity to their beliefs and control structure, they claim you'll be loved instead. It seems odd that modern humans are still so gullible, but again we've evolved just well enough to survive on this planet. Our perceptions are easily fooled, especially if the mind is not armed with logic and a disposition to question. It took me 30 years of ardent belief before I saw that I had been fooled, and that other smart people I knew had also been fooled. Once I was willing to ask hard questions and insist on real answers, it became easy to see all of the emotional lies I'd been told that seemed like love. 

 

I hope you can find the help you need to set aside all the magic claims and just deal with daily physical reality. It is a change of mindset, but the more you can move toward it, the more stable you will become. 

 

 

 

[Joshpantera]

On 2/19/2022 at 11:21 AM, Aibao said:

Disarming my faith into prime factors, trying to discover the truth, I collect both Christian and atheistic literature. Whenever I reach for a book that speaks for faith, I feel a rush of negative emotions, fear, anxiety, sudden depression, sadness ... and I heard somewhere that everyone will find the truth according to their beliefs and it all depends on their attitude. So if I have a negative attitude towards Christianity - I will find the truth in atheism, although atheism does not have to be true .... my mind is so confused - do you know that? Even in the Bible there are verses saying that those who refuse to believe God will give a strong illusion and go to hell ... I don't remember which verses they are. ...

 

Christian literature can only give you so much. Genesis is not literal, that is demonstrable. You can call all the bible all sorts of things except literally true. Look here at a common debate I have run against christian apologists every so often: 

 

 

 

And if the bible's not literally true, then it has nothing to do with the truth of any of the big questions - like how did life begin on earth or any other big question. It doesn't tell you how. It's not literally true.

 

This cripples any liberal christian interpretations that depend on the following premises: 

 

1) God exists. It's not literally true, so how can its portrayal of god as YHWH, or the Elohim be literally true? 

2) Humanity began with Adam and Eve. It's not literally true, so that's off the table. 

3) Original sin. Again, off the table as literally true coming from a story that is demonstrably not literally true. 

3) Global flood. Same problem. Not literally true. No evidence for a global scale flood as described. Not possible to put all of the animals in that space and so on. 

4) Patriarchs. Same problem. We already know that Genesis is not written as literally true, and the evidence and lack thereof shows the same. 

5) Salvation from original sin. This should be glaringly obvious by now. It's not even possible that it's literally true to begin with. So how could the NT as salvation be any different when it's predicated on taking the original sin claim literally, which, is clearly and demonstrably not literal. 

6) Hell, and similar threats. Pure horse shit considering all of the above. Not even the in the ballpark as possible. 

 

Atheism is merely a lack of positive belief. It's not about proving gods don't exist or anything similar. It's not about proving anything.

 

It's simply the position of not believing in gods and not believing what someone else is claiming as a positive. What's true about atheism is the doubting unproven claims of others aspect. They have truly failed to prove their own positive assertions. It's up to them to prove their claims, it's not up to you, me, or anyone else to disprove them. And if we turn to the first book of the bible, all of their many claims are seen to be incredibly wrong. 

 

There's no good reason to believe any of their positive claims. None at all. Christian literature can't possibly have any value where truth seeking is concerned. 

[TABA]

On 2/19/2022 at 11:21 AM, Aibao said:

You let me ask questions, for which I thank you very much, I took a long time to have the courage to post my distress again ... people are fed up with my questions)

Hello Aibao!

 

First of all, we are not fed up with your questions!  That’s why we are here, to help people in your situation - in the early stages of deconversion - by offering encouragement and by answering questions.  Chances are that whatever the question, somebody here has faced that too, and hopefully resolved it.

 

On 2/19/2022 at 11:21 AM, Aibao said:

Disarming my faith into prime factors, trying to discover the truth, I collect both Christian and atheistic literature.

 

On 2/19/2022 at 12:25 PM, walterpthefirst said:

 

If you carry on doing this Aibao, you will never properly disarm your faith.

 

How do I know this?  I tried doing it myself and it failed miserably.

I strongly agree with Walter here, and I want to expand on it and explain why this is so…

 

It may seem like we are saying “listen to the people who agree with us and don’t listen to those who disagree” but it’s not that simple.  It’s more that we think that the Christian apologists and the counter-apologists (generally atheists) tend to use different methods that should be recognized for what they are.  
 

When you examine Christian arguments, including their responses to the challenges from atheists, you will notice that they are not open to the possibility that the claims of Christianity might be untrue. We call it “presupposition”, and it works like this:  if I believe something, let’s say “All Swans are white”, and I only find white swans out there, I take this as confirmation that all swans are indeed white.  But then I visit Australia - or a zoo - and I encounter a black swan.  I may say “this is not a swan, it’s something else” or maybe “this swan is not really black: somebody dyed its feathers or maybe fed it a diet that caused it to turn black”.  This is presupposition: coming up with alternatives that support my existing beliefs and limiting myself only to those possibilities.  This is very common, maybe even universal, when Christians respond to challenges to their beliefs.  So if I ask why Jesus said the Kingdom of Heaven would come to pass in the lifetime of his disciples when it still hasn’t happened as of 2022, the responses may vary but they all use presupposition: Jesus can’t have been wrong (because that would destroy Christianity!) so he must have meant “lifetime” to mean something different from how the word is understood.  Maybe he meant the lifetime of humanity as a whole.  Or maybe the “Kingdom of Heaven” really was established in the 1st Century but it’s not what we expected and we didn’t recognize it.  Which, I will add, is quite at odds with the descriptions of the Kingdom found in scripture. 
 

When Jesus says to his followers “Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours” and then it doesn’t work that way, there is always a response that makes the promise somehow true: “You didn’t  believe strongly enough” or “The thing you asked for would not have been good for you” etc.  The response from the Christian is very rarely “I don’t understand this either”.  
 

Some arguments against Christianity are very strong, some are less so, and some are just weak.  Atheists are human and can be as guilty of wishful thinking as believers.  It’s up to you to evaluate the various claims.  Does this argument against Christianity make sense to me?  Why or why not?  Is this Christian engaging in presupposition? Are they engaging in mental gymnastics in order to come up with an answer that supports Christianity?

 

Aibao, about 8 years ago I was trying to determine if Christianity was true.  I wanted it to be true, for various reasons.  But I made a crucial “mistake” as far as my faith was concerned.  I started listening to a series of respectful debates between a Christian and an atheist.  It was the first time I had ever really given a hearing to arguments against Christianity, but I was rooting for the Christian.  Gradually though, I started to see that the atheist was making more sense.  It helped his credibility that he wasn’t ridiculing Christianity or insulting the intelligence of believers.  He just explained why he didn’t find it believable.  Eventually I became convinced he was right: I was no longer a Christian, and soon I was no longer a theist either.  
 

So again my advice is to carefully look at how the arguments are being made, and to see if they make sense or if they’re using presupposition to avoid problems.
And I will add that if and when you become satisfied that Christianity is not true, you no longer help yourself by revisiting Christian arguments repeatedly.  There are very likely no new ones that you haven’t already heard, but they can chip away at your confidence and undermine you.  
 

 Good luck in your journey and NEVER be afraid to ask questions here!

 

All the Best to You

-TABA

[Aibao]

Quote

On 2/19/2022 at 5:21 PM, Aibao said:

You let me ask questions, for which I thank you very much, I took a long time to have the courage to post my distress again ... people are fed up with my questions)

I wrote this text in some notebook on a laptop, I did not read it for the third time (as I usually do), because I was in a hurry, so I quickly pasted it on the forum, as a result, I cut the sentence in which I explained further that nobody in the church liked my questions (I always had a lot of them, and the pastor and friends found it harder and harder to answer my dilemmas), or at least I had the feeling that they were tired of it. Nevertheless, thank you, TABA, for expressing your willingness to respond, and for your and everyone's answer here. I am glad that you are open to questions, I meant Christians, not you, I know that you are open to questions as much as possible, I appreciate it and thank you for it.

 

And yes, maybe you are right that I should have stopped reading the arguments for and against Christianity, because this way I will never get anywhere, but it bothers me, the more so because somewhere I encountered an (Christian) accusation that if your attitude is only against faith, then you will obviously become unbelievers and you will never know the truth, you will suppress the truth about God. That is why I try, but with each Christian book I become more and more emotionally tired and mentally exhausted to such an extent that I run away from Christian topics anyway (talking to my family, meeting friends, even a lonely trip to another city to a shopping mall just like that, or looking at pictures with Asian fashion, anything but religion, because my brain can't cope with the accusations made by Christianity, with the associated guilt, and worse, with fear ...) so yeah You're right, it's time to stop, but it's not that easy when you walk into your own room and see this pile of religious and anti-religious books waiting to be read, and your phone has over a thousand, and maybe even more open religious and atheistic cards to rewrite (well, because How not to do it if the price is either eternal bliss or eternal torture?)

[Aibao]

Quote

On 2/20/2022 at 1:08 AM, Joshpantera said:

Christian literature can only give you so much. Genesis is not literal, that is demonstrable. You can call all the bible all sorts of things except literally true. Look here at a common debate I have run against christian apologists every so often: 

 

 

thank you for paying attention to it, I looked at your arguments, but I'm not smart enough, that is, I don't know anything about evolution and cosmology and I don't understand it, but what you wrote helped me a lot, I breathed a breath for some time a relief that perhaps in fact Christianity is such a poorly proven religion that it simply only exists in a believer's desperate, indoctrinated mind ... until I looked at religious books and read one of them .... eh ... 

 

maybe it is impossible to help me? however, I will not give up yet and will continue to ask for help, and I have added your arguments to the list of arguments against Christianity

[◊ Weezer ◊]

On 2/19/2022 at 12:42 PM, Fuego said:

 

We know from decades of research that brain chemistry has an enormous effect on how we perceive the world and our selves.

 

 

I would like to reemphasise what Fuego said.  It is very possible there is a medication that can help you with the struggles you are having.  I recommend going to a mental health clinic, or if one is not availabe, talk with a doctor about the trouble you are having with thinking clearly, and making decisions.  BEST WISHES!

[Joshpantera]

On 2/26/2022 at 12:02 PM, Aibao said:

... until I looked at religious books and read one of them .... eh ... 

 

maybe it is impossible to help me? however, I will not give up yet and will continue to ask for help, and I have added your arguments to the list of arguments against Christianity

 

You're just transitioning from thinking one way to another. It's a back-and-forth experience.

 

How I got to where I am now and very firm about it is from debating back and forth until it became increasingly obvious that christianity can't possibly be right. It's not even possible and I know that now. It's put to rest in my mind. I can't fast forward all of that personal experience to you and download it into your mind. All I can do is point you in the right direction and hope that you can follow it through as well. 

 

If not, well, then they (christian writers) can deceive you into believing rank forgeries and lies as truth. Mainly by appealing to emotion.

 

If you keep coming back here every time you think that some christian book has a good point and might be true, no matter what it is, we will always have a counter apologetic response to it. We see and hear it all.

 

And when they try and invent new arguments with new science or philosophy, they have no chance of being right with that either. Because the foundation itself is faulty. That which starts out wrong from the outset cannot magically transform into something true and correct along the way. They will always loose. 

[R. S. Martin]

Dear Aibao,

 

I don't know you or your previous struggles but my heart goes out to you. I'm not sure whether or not you will find this post helpful. I have written extensively in "atheism" and "Christianity," both on Ex-Christian and on Quora.com. I hold a Masters degree in theology but deconverted three-quarter-ways through my degree when I realized none of these most highly educated theologians addressed my lifelong burning question: How did Jesus' death open "heaven's gate" for human souls?  I also have some formal training in mental health counselling and also draw from that for parts of this answer, though I don't have a license to practise. Maybe I am too much steeped in Quora's "definitive answer" approach in my writing, when ExChristian's approach is to be supportive. Let me state this up front: I don't know the definitive answer. All I know is that once in a while facts are helpful so I'll present a few facts I've picked up.

 

In your opening post above, I keep coming across phrases like "atheistic literature," and "atheistic blogs," as though the literature and blogs written by atheists about their worldview were somehow "atheistic" but not exactly atheist. In my mind, that's like saying a Christian theologian's writing is "Christianic writing" instead of saying "Christian writing." In my experience on Quora, it is only Christians who talk about "atheistic" this or that. They don't understand that "atheist" means "lack of belief in God or gods." They think there is a "school of thought" or "religion" called "atheism." Then they think that anything resembling atheism should be called "atheistic." That is erroneous or wrong-headed. Not correct thinking.

 

Atheist vs theist is a focus on beliefs, meaning: Do you or don't you believe in God? If you believe in God, which God do you believe in and why? 

 

However, the focus of your opening post is not on your beliefs but on your inner feelings, subjective. I realize that is how evangelical Christians appeal to "sinners" and make converts; they appeal to feelings. Some people may be able to deconvert using this approach but you appear to be having serious problems. I base this on your admission of repeatedly not knowing what to make of "what is inside of you." It is as though your feelings are following some outside factor. Maybe you subconsciously disagree with Christianity but consciously you cannot allow yourself to focus on the actual fact or concept of the Christian beliefs that you disagree with. Doing so triggers the fear of hell and separation from God. In this case, the best your psyche can do is allow your feelings to bang around inside of you. With your conscious mind you are following your feelings, hoping for direction, but unconsciously your feelings are following a stronger guide of your psyche that you have shut down to your conscious mind.

 

That is merely my guess. If my suggestion is totally off-base, ignore it. If it seems on par, you may wish to focus on the source of your feelings, on what it is you disagree about in religion. And how it makes you feel. Etc. Then you can analyze this belief and see what is right or wrong about the belief, rather than bouncing around with your feelings. I do wish you peace in this and your life in general. There is peace to be found.

[Aibao]

4 hours ago, R. S. Martin said:

 

 

That is merely my guess. If my suggestion is totally off-base, ignore it. If it seems on par, you may wish to focus on the source of your feelings, on what it is you disagree about in religion. And how it makes you feel. Etc. Then you can analyze this belief and see what is right or wrong about the belief, rather than bouncing around with your feelings. I do wish you peace in this and your life in general. There is peace to be found.

Thank you very much for your response. My question is still valid today. Yes, you are right that it is about subjective feelings, but not only. It's also about experiences (I'm working on another topic, but maybe I'll post something about experiences), e.g.
How is it that someone I was thinking about the day before suddenly wrote me a message today?
I liken it to the fact that I left a Pentecostal church a few years ago. I knew there were people from the church who prayed for me, and I also received such assurances personally some time after my departure. Nothing happened. But after a few years, I suddenly (thanks to my mother) started to become interested in religion again - could this be their answer to prayers for me? Is it just like that? (synchronicity explained to me here, but I need to read more about it)
A non-Christian friend of mine says that there must be a higher power, because in his life he had many incomprehensible, miraculous situations that can only be explained by the existence of God.
Instead of comforting me, it captivates and scares me - because if there is God and I don't want to go back to him, hell awaits me. I cannot go back to the Christianity that captivated me, I will not force myself, so how can I come to terms with the terrible reality that allegedly awaits me after death? That's why I want to at least try and maybe I will find the truth and find out that it is a myth and a lie. And if not - then maybe I can force to this religion.
Anyway, I have a lot of questions, so many that I can't deal with them. To the extent that I can sit for days on topics of religion and atheism and compare them, but I still find no way out. It's so tiring .... but what not to do if your eternal happiness or terrifying suffering is at stake? Or maybe it's a lie, so what don't you do to discover the truth and finally feel the taste of freedom?
I can't even come to a solid conclusion, because the apologists explain everything and can explain ... incorrect genealogies of Jesus in the Gospels? Well, it is possible that a piece has been lost, so assume that the genealogies are correct! Are People Departing From Christianity Today? - well, that's what the Bible says - prophecy does come true! - maybe if it weren't for the apologists who try to explain everything, it would be easier for me to come to certain conclusions. But I know Josh is here who can talk to apologists, so I have a lot of questions about the arguments used by apologists, but I wish each of them would be disproved, I want to see that they are really wrong, unfortunately they use such things or philosophies that you can't even check it sometimes ...

[pantheory]

On 2/19/2022 at 8:21 AM, Aibao said:

 

You let me ask questions, for which I thank you very much, I took a long time to have the courage to post my distress again ... people are fed up with my questions)

 

Disarming my faith into prime factors, trying to discover the truth, I collect both Christian and atheistic literature. Whenever I reach for a book that speaks for faith, I feel a rush of negative emotions, fear, anxiety, sudden depression, sadness ... and I heard somewhere that everyone will find the truth according to their beliefs and it all depends on their attitude. So if I have a negative attitude towards Christianity - I will find the truth in atheism, although atheism does not have to be true .... my mind is so confused - do you know that? Even in the Bible there are verses saying that those who refuse to believe God will give a strong illusion and go to hell ... I don't remember which verses they are. ...

Anyway, while reading books on how religion came into being, my mind started to realize that religion was created by people who might not know that, for example, a dream is a dream and interpreted a dream or some optical illusion as a revelation from God. Anyway - people with schizophrenia can see, you can say - the spiritual world ..............

 

You've given us some insight into your thinking. For you, I don't think you're faced with stupidity or naivete concerning religion, I think it's more your desire to believe and hope too much that there's something beyond this life. The main problem is that there is no evidence to support this belief or hope, especially the words within Genesis, Revelations, Noah's Arc, the Christian Bible, a spiritual world, etc. -- and all the other world religions which are ridiculous in light of science.

 

We are aware of the negatives, but what are the positives of religion? Some religions propose morals and philosophies that can help some people such as the golden rule.

 

But science via natural selection says that humans are simply animals, and that souls are simply a fantasy. I believe this because it is simply obvious to me from my studies.

[Aibao]

I don't really think so - whether I care to believe (when I read books about atheism or other than Christian views, I feel calm, some things get clearer to me, and then I read a Christian book - and fear returns,) as you know, I care know the evidence, the arguments against religion, I have a problem with logical thinking, that's a fact, but there is too much fear in me. Even after leaving Christianity, if someone suddenly started telling you about hell and demons and offering various articles and arguments for religion, would you have no problem? would you so easily dismiss them because you want it so? at the beginning I wanted to do that, but I was forced to read religious stuff, it stayed like that, I won't get out of it, no chance, at least now, that's why I'm here because I'm still trying to learn something, or at least I want information and experiences of people which were already in my place, even if I tried to believe it, but when I find out what is going on and that Christianity does not work on any side, archaeological, philosophical, social, none - then I finally have to free my mind and say enough, I have evidence, enough , I know, but at the stage where I am, I cannot say that yet - I still have questions and fears that have returned from the past, but I do not want to write all of the questions here right away, because it would cause such chaos and confusion that nobody would be able to explain all of this, that's why I am creating topics in the questions section

[Aibao]

I would also like to refer to the arguments for and against the resurrection - because this is what Christianity is mainly based on. if there are any alternative and convincing explanations the question still remains: what about scientifically and medically proven healings and miracles, and what about mystical visions and experiences? There is still something to ask, I am still curious, because I would like to close the topic of religion in my life, I spend all days thinking and reading literature, I have the impression that I am studying religious studies and theology ....

[Aibao]

it's not that I'm trying to believe anyway and that I want to believe, but rather that it tires me out, but I can't just let go and go on, no, I can't, I have a problem, if you are an ex-Christian I think, that you know what I mean

[walterpthefirst]

Hello Aibao. 

 

In my opinion R.S. Martin's message to you is very much on target. 

 

The source of your religious beliefs and the hold that religion has over you comes from your feelings.  Your emotions.  If you could somehow step neutralize your feelings and emotions you would see, with the clear light of reason, that your religious beliefs are unreasonable, irrational, contradictory and harmful to you.

 

Faith is a function of feeling, not reason. 

 

If you can understand that thought Aibao, accept it, embrace it and remember it every time you feel emotionally drawn to religion, then you will be one step closer to being free from your bondage to religion. 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

16 minutes ago, pantheory said:

 

Science via natural selection says the humans are simply animals. I believe this because it is simply obvious to me that I and other humans are nothing but animals.

 

Thank goodness we were by chance born as one of the highest forms of animals!  We could have been born as a rat in the sewer of New York city.

 

Aibio, has it occured to you that you were by chance born into your christian faith?  Had you been born in a different country, and conditioned (indoctrinated into) a different faith, you would be worrying about your standing with that other "god".   Think about it.  ALL RELIGIOuS BELIEFS ARE CONDITIONED INTO HUMANS.   NONE OF THE GODS CAN BE "PROVEN".   And people of all those religions have religious, miraclious experiences.  Can they all be the true religion??     

 

I finally prayed to find truth, where ever that might lead,  and eventually came to the conclusion to pick the parts of the different religions (which all contain some "truths"), and of the sciences, that BY EVIDENCE have shown they promote quality life, and go with that as my "guide" to life.  This is a summary of what got me "over the hump" of religious belief.  Maybe this will help you.

[walterpthefirst]

9 minutes ago, Aibao said:

I would also like to refer to the arguments for and against the resurrection - because this is what Christianity is mainly based on. if there are any alternative and convincing explanations the question still remains: what about scientifically and medically proven healings and miracles, and what about mystical visions and experiences? There is still something to ask, I am still curious, because I would like to close the topic of religion in my life, I spend all days thinking and reading literature, I have the impression that I am studying religious studies and theology ....

 

You are proceeding from the assumption that the gospels are reliable historical documents, Aibao.

 

Are they?

 

According to the sacred texts of Tibetan Buddhism, Milarepa the Holy Man flew over the Himalaya mountains, without the need for an oxygen supply.

 

Are those Buddhist texts reliable historical documents?

 

If you think that Jesus' resurrection is more believable than Milarepa's flight through the skies, I know the reason why.

 

Because you are emotionally invested in Christianity and not in Buddhism.

 

As R.S. Martin pointed out, you feel that it is true.

 

But remember!

 

Faith is a function of feeling, not reason.

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[R. S. Martin]

6 hours ago, Aibao said:

How is it that someone I was thinking about the day before suddenly wrote me a message today? I liken it to the fact that I left a Pentecostal church a few years ago. I knew there were people from the church who prayed for me, and I also received such assurances personally some time after my departure. Nothing happened. But after a few years, I suddenly (thanks to my mother) started to become interested in religion again - could this be their answer to prayers for me? Is it just like that?

 

There is such a thing as coincidence. Things "just happen" to occur at the same time. We can enjoy the happenstance and take the opportunity it presents. Or not. There does not have to be a hidden meaning behind everything. Of course, if you are determined to prove that God exists, then you won't accept this line of thought. 

 

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if there is God and I don't want to go back to him, hell awaits me.

 

I know. This is the great hangup from fundamentalist religion. They hammer it into your head when you're little so you will never doubt this one fundamental idea. We won't know until we're dead whether or not this is true and then it will be too late. That is why you must focus on proving or disproving the facts that can be proven. People who can be proven to lie about things we can check, tent also to lie about things we can't check. In other words, these Christians proclaim that the Bible has never ever been changed. But that is a proven lie.

 

Read Bart D. Ehrman's books Misquoting Jesus and Jesus Interrupted. You can get them from this website or from Amazon. Bart proves how he discovered step by step that things in the Bible were changed. Use your brain and focus on the details he provides. Then compare this with the blanket statements, minus evidence, provided by the Christians.

 

Learn what counts as hard empirical evidence, as evidence that can be seen, counted, measured, evidence that counts in a court of law, or for scientific evidence. If you give it any rational thought at all, you will understand why the Bible cannot be used to prove the Bible true.  You will also understand why so called eye-witness accounts of people who are not registered anywhere else except in the ancient text they supposedly testify to are not evidence. Those are some facts to hold onto. 

 

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I want to see that they are really wrong, unfortunately they use such things or philosophies that you can't even check it sometimes ...

It's not possible to go through all the apologists and theologians and prove them all wrong. I did an entire graduate degree in theology and never read any Baptist or Mennonite theologians. There is two thousand years worth of writing out there to go through, my friend. You may want to do a degree in something that allows you to study in depth about human nature, or somehow approach this from an organized perspective. That really helped me. Cultural anthropology, sociology, psychology--all of those allow one to look deeply at the human psyche and the larger reality.