The death of Jesus

[Sexton Blake]

The Jewish penalty at the time for blasphemy was stoning to death, NOT crucifixion. In the gospel of John, when Jesus insults the Jews a few times, he is forced to run away as they pick up stones to kill him, notably in chapter 8:

 

Verse 58  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Verse 59  Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

 

which does not sound like a Jesus who is ready to die for his beliefs.

 

The Jews of those times were known as a stiff necked and troublesome people. A weak Roman governor could never have kept them in line. Bart Ehrman says of Pontius Pilate (in his debate with William Lane Craig):

 

"My view is that the reason the nation was kept “at peace” was precisely because governors like Pilate showed with graphic brutality what would happen to anyone who revolted or threatened to revolt; crucifixion and the humilities suffered post mortem were an effective deterrent for revolt, for most of the Roman period."

 

Pilate came to abolish Jewish laws. He had his armed solders winter in Jerusalem as he clearly expected trouble and when it did come as the Jews complained:

 

"He had his armed soldiers surround the crowd, and ordered the Jews to return home to Jerusalem with the Roman standards still in place, or he would have each and every one of them executed on the spot. "

 

This is not some weak Roman who would listen to Jewish complaints.

 

Ehrman tells us:

 

"Part of the entire punishment for capital offenses — especially crimes against the state (e.g., claiming to be a ruler of a people ruled instead by Rome) — was to be left *on* the cross for days, as a public display, and a humiliation and denigration: bodies were left subject to the elements, the scavengers, and natural decay.  The Romans wanted everyone to know that THIS is what happens to those who cross the power of Rome."

 

But what has this to do with Jesus? When brought before Pilate, Jesus makes it clear that he has nothing against Rome, so Pilate finds him innocent.

 

What has Pilate got to do with a Jew who blasphemes? The Jews had their own punishments. As said, the Jewish elders would literally stone someone to death for blasphemy (as shown in the film "The Life of Brian") so why would they bring him before Pilate, who had no time for Jewish laws?

 

So, Jesus ended up on the cross, or did he? Some claimed he was nailed to a stake, or even impaled, as the bible is unclear on this:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_of_Jesus'_crucifixion

 

which is strange since the writers of the gospels seem to want us to believe that they were there at the time.

 

So christians now wear crucifixes. But In the Hebrew Bible Deuteronomy 21:23 states that "cursed of God is everyone who hangs on a tree". In the Septuagint this became anything made of wood.

 

Being crucified was seen as a shameful death at the time; for thieves and murderers and such so early christians used the fish and other symbols for their religion. It is known that they were using the crucifix as early as 250 AD when pagans accused them of worshipping wooden crosses. Octavius pointed out that pagans (of the time) used wooden crosses in their worship (link above):

 

"You, indeed, who consecrate gods of wood, adore wooden crosses perhaps as parts of your gods. For your very standards,^[80] as well as your banners; and flags of your camp, what else are they but crosses gilded and adorned? Your victorious trophies not only imitate the appearance of a simple cross, but also that of a man affixed to it. We assuredly see the sign of a cross, naturally, in the ship when it is carried along with swelling sails, when it glides forward with expanded oars; and when the military yoke is lifted up, it is the sign of a cross; and when a man adores God with a pure mind, with hands outstretched. Thus the sign of the cross either is sustained by a natural reason, or your own religion is formed with respect to it."

 

^{I always found the crucifix strange as anyone can die. Surely an empty tomb would be more apt?}

There is a meme where Jesus is preaching to some people and he says he has returned only to find crosses like the one he was killed on, everywhere. Not something he wanted to be reminded of.

 

 

[mwc]

On 3/2/2022 at 11:33 PM, Sexton Blake said:

The Jewish penalty at the time for blasphemy was stoning to death, NOT crucifixion. In the gospel of John, when Jesus insults the Jews a few times, he is forced to run away as they pick up stones to kill him, notably in chapter 8:

     There is quite a bit of debate on whether or not the Jews actually possessed the power to give the death penalty at this time.  I'm of a mind that they did not and it was reserved to Rome.  This means folks like Pilate.  Though what powers he actually held are somewhat unclear and come largely from the bible so it's thought he could issue the death penalty (at least for Jews).  However, his recall to Rome does have to do with the death of Samaritans so maybe he didn't really have this power or there were limits?  As in one guy getting crucified is fine but several getting killed is abuse even though the underlying circumstances are sort of similar?

 

On 3/2/2022 at 11:33 PM, Sexton Blake said:

Verse 58  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Verse 59  Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

 

which does not sound like a Jesus who is ready to die for his beliefs.

     I was always told this was because he had to die by crucifixion and not stoning so he skipped out.  You read it now and it's just a guy lying which we're told he didn't do but I hate to tell people that hiding your identity is lying.

 

On 3/2/2022 at 11:33 PM, Sexton Blake said:

The Jews of those times were known as a stiff necked and troublesome people. A weak Roman governor could never have kept them in line. Bart Ehrman says of Pontius Pilate (in his debate with William Lane Craig):

 

"My view is that the reason the nation was kept “at peace” was precisely because governors like Pilate showed with graphic brutality what would happen to anyone who revolted or threatened to revolt; crucifixion and the humilities suffered post mortem were an effective deterrent for revolt, for most of the Roman period."

     I'm going to disagree.  I can't say for certain why the nation was or was not at "peace" by essentially saying a strongman is good for the people is not really a good answer.  I think we have lots of examples of this.  The Roman governors were known to just sort of rob the place while they were there.  I suppose if you want to say the brutality was good for Rome (which it seems to be saying since it kept revolts at bay) then maybe?  But was it good for the nation?  I have my doubts.

 

On 3/2/2022 at 11:33 PM, Sexton Blake said:

Pilate came to abolish Jewish laws. He had his armed solders winter in Jerusalem as he clearly expected trouble and when it did come as the Jews complained:

 

"He had his armed soldiers surround the crowd, and ordered the Jews to return home to Jerusalem with the Roman standards still in place, or he would have each and every one of them executed on the spot. "

 

This is not some weak Roman who would listen to Jewish complaints.

     Pilate was not weak in this regard.  He was fairly extreme.  He did ultimately take those standards to Caesarea Martima as I recall.  Later, there's another incident involving Gaius (Caligula) and a soldier named Longinus manages to rectify the situation.  I find it highly coincidental that Longinus also happens to be the traditional name of the soldier who stuck the spear in the side of jesus and declares him the son of god.

 

On 3/2/2022 at 11:33 PM, Sexton Blake said:

Ehrman tells us:

 

"Part of the entire punishment for capital offenses — especially crimes against the state (e.g., claiming to be a ruler of a people ruled instead by Rome) — was to be left *on* the cross for days, as a public display, and a humiliation and denigration: bodies were left subject to the elements, the scavengers, and natural decay.  The Romans wanted everyone to know that THIS is what happens to those who cross the power of Rome."

 

But what has this to do with Jesus? When brought before Pilate, Jesus makes it clear that he has nothing against Rome, so Pilate finds him innocent.

 

What has Pilate got to do with a Jew who blasphemes? The Jews had their own punishments. As said, the Jewish elders would literally stone someone to death for blasphemy (as shown in the film "The Life of Brian") so why would they bring him before Pilate, who had no time for Jewish laws?

 

So, Jesus ended up on the cross, or did he? Some claimed he was nailed to a stake, or even impaled, as the bible is unclear on this:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_of_Jesus'_crucifixion

 

which is strange since the writers of the gospels seem to want us to believe that they were there at the time.

     At best, assuming Pilate has the power of this sort of punishment, I would think that he would probably just kick it back down to the Jews.  If he didn't care either way but didn't want to dirty his hands with it I imagine he would say "This guy is innocent but I'm not going to get in your way if you decide to execute him."  But this means they would take over in the narrative from that point.  They would carry out the death according to their own laws not the Romans using their own people.  He would then tell his superiors that they performed some execution on some religious reason and he didn't involve himself except to grant permission after trying to get them to change their minds since no Roman laws were broken.  However, we're always told that Pilate killed him because of sedition using the "King of Jews" notion however Pilate, in the gospels, acquits him.  The charge is null and void since the Roman in charge says so.  We're told that Pilate says he's innocent.  That Pilate gives the people the choice of who to kill.  But, ultimately, the charge of sedition is legit so Pilate really did want him dead because he and his movement was a threat?  That's nuts.  The charges are all dismissed and he's killed anyway.  None of the charges matter and we're told as much.

 

On 3/2/2022 at 11:33 PM, Sexton Blake said:

So christians now wear crucifixes. But In the Hebrew Bible Deuteronomy 21:23 states that "cursed of God is everyone who hangs on a tree". In the Septuagint this became anything made of wood.

 

Being crucified was seen as a shameful death at the time; for thieves and murderers and such so early christians used the fish and other symbols for their religion. It is known that they were using the crucifix as early as 250 AD when pagans accused them of worshipping wooden crosses. Octavius pointed out that pagans (of the time) used wooden crosses in their worship (link above):

 

"You, indeed, who consecrate gods of wood, adore wooden crosses perhaps as parts of your gods. For your very standards,^[80] as well as your banners; and flags of your camp, what else are they but crosses gilded and adorned? Your victorious trophies not only imitate the appearance of a simple cross, but also that of a man affixed to it. We assuredly see the sign of a cross, naturally, in the ship when it is carried along with swelling sails, when it glides forward with expanded oars; and when the military yoke is lifted up, it is the sign of a cross; and when a man adores God with a pure mind, with hands outstretched. Thus the sign of the cross either is sustained by a natural reason, or your own religion is formed with respect to it."

 

^{I always found the crucifix strange as anyone can die. Surely an empty tomb would be more apt?}

There is a meme where Jesus is preaching to some people and he says he has returned only to find crosses like the one he was killed on, everywhere. Not something he wanted to be reminded of.

 

 

     That quote above is by Felix from Octavius.  Anyhow, he's pointing out that crosses are found everywhere and lists a bunch of examples.  He's trying to equivocate here.  Since standards were revered (not really worshipped though the image on the standard may be worshiped sort of like the christ and cross) he's saying that they too worshiped crosses.  Also, by finding crosses in ordinary objects, such as ships masts, the cross is everywhere so it must have a special meaning.  He also mentioned trophies which can look like a crucifixion and date back to at least Greek times (though they used them in a different way than the Romans).  Here's a picture of a carving of one that I have seen (not my photo though).  It's about 5 feet (maybe 1.5m) tall:

     Anyway, the whole thing is nothing more really than "What we're doing is nothing different than what you guys do."  Early xians love to say that until they become dominant and then they're "Nothing like those guys."

 

          mwc