Noah's Ark was the beginning of the end for me

[Wertbag]

Back when I was a young'un our bible teacher tried to tell us that the story of Noah's Ark was a literally true event that happened ~4000 years ago.  We weren't taught young earth creation, so it was still billions of years of life on earth, then the big reset button was pushed.

For me this was the story that started my questioning, and while I got the answer "Don't you think an all-powerful God could have done that?", it never sat well.  You ended up with this never ending list of miracle after miracle, with every question answered by throwing more miracles at it.  How did all of animals get brought to the Ark?  God teleported them and made them act nothing like animals do.  How did 8 people care for tens of thousands of animals?  God magically put them in stasis.  How did the animals redistribute around the world?  More teleportation to where they need to be.  How did an ancient man manage to spend 120 years building a boat and how could he afford it?  Look, its magic okay?!

 

I've seen lists into the hundreds of the issues raised by both the global flood and the Ark itself; from the lack of water, energy released by that downpour, the gases from the animals killing everything onboard, the plant life not surviving, the empires of the world having history before, during and after, or the ancient cave paintings that would have been washed away.

Even having read those hundreds of points, I still come across new problems I hadn't considered to this day.  Recently someone pointed out that the wood first laid for the boat, was 120 years old by the time the last piece was put in place.  An open boat, exposed to the weather and pests for a century, then still has to remain sea worthy in the worst storm imaginable...  

 

Since those days I've met several Christians who simply say it was a moral story and not a literal one, which is fair enough but leaves you with the question what other stories should we not believe are real.  The resurrection?  The life of Jesus?  How do we know any of it is a true event if we start picking and choosing?  Others spout the line that was given to me, "Don't you think the creator of the universe could over come these minor issues?".  And sure He could, but if I have to add 101 miracles that aren't mentioned in the bible, just to make it even vaguely possible, I'm going to have trouble in accepting it as fact.  This lead me to my agnostic phase, where I had all of these questions and no good answers.  I blamed myself, thinking my ignorance was the reason I couldn't fill those gaps, so I threw myself into learning.  Studying the scientific view on Noah's Ark was just damning.  Finding people doing measurements of the food and water requirements, the structural integrity of the boat, the speed the "kinds" would need to evolve to give us the diversity we see...  it all made sense and importantly you could see the workings and do the measurements yourself if you wished.  That different view was telling.  Rather than "God did it, just accept", I was hearing "This is how it is worked out, and why the conclusions have been reached"

 

I started down the rabbit hole, spent a decade bouncing ideas between both sides to see who could actually provide answers, and eventually came to realise I had no belief left.  I do wonder if I hadn't been exposed to such a ridiculous story so early on, whether I would have found it less pressing to start digging.  If that fuse hadn't been lit, I may have remained happily accepting what I was being told for many years.  So in that way I'm glad the story of Noah is so bat shit crazy, cos it was a slap in the face that I appreciate to this day.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

I was always annoyed that the cute pictures of an ark with big-eyed animals poking their heads out was inaccurate. Where were all the bodies of children, parents, and animals floating in the water? Moral story if the law is made by a psychotic narcissist. 

[older]

55 minutes ago, Wertbag said:

....

 

Since those days I've met several Christians who simply say it was a moral story and not a literal one, which is fair enough but leaves you with the question what other stories should we not believe are real.  The resurrection?  The life of Jesus?  How do we know any of it is a true event if we start picking and choosing?  Others spout the line that was given to me, "Don't you think the creator of the universe could over come these minor issues?". 

....

Now Wertbag, you know that the way to know if something is true or not is to only read the parts that the preacher has highlighted for you, and to ignore the rest. And don't ask silly questions. 

 

I've always wondered how is it moral to kill off all the innocent children who weren't old enough to know what was going on? And if Mr. God is allegedly so smart, and so powerful, how come he didn't just come out and tell everyone to knock it off? (Now that I think about it, if their behavior was so important to him, he could have just used his power to straighten them out.) And if it was only this one family on the boat, then they would have had to commit incest to re-populate the planet. 

 

(And let's not forget that an elephant eats about 600 lbs. of food a day, and drinks about 52 gallons of water a day. So doing a little math for two of them gives us 24 tons of food and 4000 gals. of fresh water for the trip. I'll not take the time to do the math for all the other critters we see in the pictures.)

[Wertbag]

50 minutes ago, older said:

I'll not take the time to do the math for all the other critters we see in the pictures.

At least with an old earth view its only a question of the animals we see...  Hovind with his efforts to jam dinosaurs both on the boat and just living with humans, takes the crazy story to whole new levels.

[walterpthefirst]

This is only partially relevant Wertbag, but it might make you chuckle.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/proginfo/2014/09/brian_aldiss_short_stories

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Aldiss

 

The British science fiction writer Brian Aldiss wrote a short story called, The Expensive Delicate Ship, using the premise that history is always written by the victors.  In the story the global flood is taken as real and historical, but instead of there being only one Ark, there were actually two.  One was Noah's ark, which contained all of the animals that now populate the post-flood world and the other was the Expensive, Delicate Ship.

 

As Noah's ark is being tossed about by the gigantic waves of the global flood another vessel is sighted in the distance, coming the opposite way.  As it draws nearer, Noah and his family see that this vessel is a hundred times larger than theirs, making his ark look like a tiny chip of wood in comparison.  Where Noah's ark is plain-looking and unadorned, this mighty ship is richly painted and decorated in gold leaf and jewels.  Fabulous towers and minarets crown it's castle-like superstructure and delicately beautiful arched windows look out from the ivory and cedar wood walls of the edifice. 

 

Through those windows Noah can see that this other ship is also stocked with animals.  Dinosaurs, dragons, unicorns, hippogriffs, woolly mammoths, pterodactyls and harpies watch as the two vessels pass each other, the huge wake of the larger one almost capsizing Noah's pathetic little piece of flotsam.  Then both ships lose sight of each other.

 

It seems that all of the prehistoric animals and magical creatures were put aboard the Expensive, Delicate ship and all the normal, modern-day animals like lions, horses and monkeys were put on board Noah's ark.  But only the smaller vessel stayed afloat and all of the animals in the other one perished.  This explains why no dinosaurs are alive today and why there are no dragons or unicorns to be seen.   So, there is no need to invoke a world that is any older than what the bible says.  Everything can be explained by there being two arks and only one of them surviving to disgorge it's cargo of animals onto dry land.

 

Amusing, no?

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter. 

[alreadyGone]

Walter,

In all that I find no explanation for how the Tasmanian Devils managed to find their way back to Tasmania after disembarkation when the flood subsided.

Or the three-toed sloths made their way back to South America.

 

Of course, if I would but pray for knowledge and spiritual guidance..

[alreadyGone]

 

It may be that further enlightenment can be found here...

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

35 minutes ago, alreadyGone said:

Walter,

In all that I find no explanation for how the Tasmanian Devils managed to find their way back to Tasmania after disembarkation when the flood subsided.

Or the three-toed sloths made their way back to South America.

 

Of course, if I would but pray for knowledge and spiritual guidance..

 

Sorry aG,

 

But Brian Aldiss' story is a work of fiction and so makes no attempt to explain about Tasmanian devils and three-toed sloths.

 

Since the bible also makes no attempt to explain these things either, perhaps it too is a work of fiction?

 

 

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

[Wertbag]

58 minutes ago, alreadyGone said:

Walter,

In all that I find no explanation for how the Tasmanian Devils managed to find their way back to Tasmania after disembarkation when the flood subsided.

Or the three-toed sloths made their way back to South America.

 

Of course, if I would but pray for knowledge and spiritual guidance..

I had it explained as God teleported them.  He's God, He can magically poof them away to where He wants them to be.

That just brings up the whole question of why He wouldn't do a single miracle to fix the problem, rather than hundreds.  He obviously wanted the animals to survive, so rather than flood the world why not a click of the fingers and turn everyone to dust?  Simple, fast, and over in an instant with no loss of innocent life.

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, Wertbag said:

I had it explained as God teleported them.  He's God, He can magically poof them away to where He wants them to be.

That just brings up the whole question of why He wouldn't do a single miracle to fix the problem, rather than hundreds.  He obviously wanted the animals to survive, so rather than flood the world why not a click of the fingers and turn everyone to dust?  Simple, fast, and over in an instant with no loss of innocent life.

 

That's right, Wertbag.  According to scripture, nothing is impossible for god.

 

So, as you say, why didn't he just end everyone's life in a painless way?

 

But we're not the first to ask this kind of searching question in this forum.  If memory serves, BAA the BornAgainAthiest, tried a very similar line of argument against a Christian calling himself The Stranger.  BAA said that if god is all knowing, then why didn't he directly populate heaven with only those people that he knew would accept the sacrifice Jesus made for them on the cross?  That way sin and death don't exist, nobody suffers and there are no such things as disease or old age.  And why didn't god directly populate heaven with only those angels he knew wouldn't rebel against him?  That way Satan and his demons never get to exist and never get to tempt anyone or cause any suffering.

 

If mere humans like us can think of ways that god could achieve his ends without hurting or harming anyone, why couldn't god do the same?  The more you think about it, the less like an all knowing and all wise god he seems.  If anything, he sounds more and more like something created in the minds of bronze age goat herders.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

[alreadyGone]

1 hour ago, Wertbag said:

I had it explained as God teleported them.  He's God, He can magically poof them away to where He wants them to be.

That just brings up the whole question of why He wouldn't do a single miracle to fix the problem, rather than hundreds.  He obviously wanted the animals to survive, so rather than flood the world why not a click of the fingers and turn everyone to dust?  Simple, fast, and over in an instant with no loss of innocent life.

 

Yeah,

it all makes as much sense as that song.

 

Of course, God's ways are not your ways, human.

Perhaps if you prayed about it more... with your eyes closed as you visualize his glory and majesty.

 

Or, just have another cup of coffee and forget the entire thing.

 

 

 

 

[Wertbag]