Why does the bible believe that people can do magic, without God?

[Sexton Blake]

Millions were caught up in the Christian maelstrom over the centuries, tortured and murdered with full papal precedent and sanction. The reason for all this, along the centuries, lies primarily in Exodus 22:1 8, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

Exodus is not the only biblical authority promoting hatred of the fictional entity called the "witch" (or wizard, or sorcerer, depending upon which of the many Bible versions you might choose). You will find the same malignant beliefs promoted in Deuteronomy 18:10-12, Leviticus 20:27, 2 Chronicles 33:6, Micah 5:12, and 1 Samuel 28:3.

 

Why does the bible believe in actual magic?

[★ Citsonga ★]

The authors came from a very superstitious culture. 

[sdelsolray]

On 5/12/2022 at 9:31 AM, Sexton Blake said:

...

Why does the bible believe in actual magic?

Because the humans who wrote the books of the Bible believed in actual magic, along with other nonsense.

[mwc]

     I hate to break it to everyone but people still believe in actual magic.

 

          mwc

 

[midniterider]

On 5/14/2022 at 2:48 AM, mwc said:

     I hate to break it to everyone but people still believe in actual magic.

 

          mwc

 

 

Does that mean that witches aren't fictional entities? 

[mwc]

8 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

Does that mean that witches aren't fictional entities? 

     In what way?  That people who believe that magic is real also believe that some people who we'll call witches possess this real magic?  Then yes.

 

          mwc

 

[midniterider]

53 minutes ago, mwc said:

     In what way?  That people who believe that magic is real also believe that some people who we'll call witches possess this real magic?  Then yes.

 

          mwc

 

 

Right, whether someone believes in magic or not, there are people who call themselves witches in 2022. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[pantheory]

21 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

Does that mean that witches aren't fictional entities? 

 

Belief can be a world away from reality, as we all here know. About 500 years ago now, Christian inquisitions were burning woman at the stake as witches all over the world. Some of these women were only  practicing homeopathic medicine.

[midniterider]

2 hours ago, pantheory said:

 

As we know, belief can be a world away from reality, as we all here know. About 500 years ago now, Christian inquisitions were burning woman at the stake as witches all over the world Some of these women were only  practicing homeopathic medicine.

 

For sure.  

[walterpthefirst]

On 5/12/2022 at 4:31 PM, Sexton Blake said:

Millions were caught up in the Christian maelstrom over the centuries, tortured and murdered with full papal precedent and sanction. The reason for all this, along the centuries, lies primarily in Exodus 22:1 8, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

Exodus is not the only biblical authority promoting hatred of the fictional entity called the "witch" (or wizard, or sorcerer, depending upon which of the many Bible versions you might choose). You will find the same malignant beliefs promoted in Deuteronomy 18:10-12, Leviticus 20:27, 2 Chronicles 33:6, Micah 5:12, and 1 Samuel 28:3.

 

Why does the bible believe in actual magic?

 

According to Goetic magic, the one third of angels who sided with Satan and fell from heaven became demons.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_demons_in_the_Ars_Goetia

 

Therefore, magic existed even in biblical times because those demons were on Earth immediately after it's 6-day creation.

 

And so these demons could be called by witches to do their bidding.

 

This is another reason why thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

 

Because they are fraternising with demons.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[pantheory]

21 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

According to Goetic magic, the one third of angels who sided with Satan and fell from heaven became demons.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_demons_in_the_Ars_Goetia

 

Therefore, magic existed even in biblical times because those demons were on Earth immediately after it's 6-day creation.

 

And so these demons could be called by witches to do their bidding.

 

This is another reason why thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

 

Because they are fraternising with demons.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

I'm sorry to hear all that. I was hoping for different stuff

[walterpthefirst]

5 hours ago, pantheory said:

 

I'm sorry to hear all that. I was hoping for different stuff

 

I wouldn't worry about it, Pantheory.

 

There's no more objective evidence for demons than there is for angels.  This is just another case of ALL things believed by faith (good or evil) falling short of our standard of objective evidence.  Just Hitchslap it and consign it to the bin.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

[alreadyGone]

There is no objective evidence for the existence of any spirit, of any kind, or of any "spiritual being".

No one can even define the word spirit on any objective truthful basis.

 

I would then assert that if there are no spirits...  there is and can be no magic.

[midniterider]

8 hours ago, alreadyGone said:

There is no objective evidence for the existence of any spirit, of any kind, or of any "spiritual being".

No one can even define the word spirit on any objective truthful basis.

 

I would then assert that if there are no spirits...  there is and can be no magic.

 

Do spirits beget magic? Or are they of the same imaginary substance?

[alreadyGone]

6 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

Do spirits beget magic? Or are they of the same imaginary substance?

 

That's something you would have to ask of someone who believes in the existence of magic.

And there are plenty of those people to ask. I suspect you could ask 100 or more of those folks and get 101 or more answers.

 

In my experience many want very much to believe that there are such imaginary things, much as so many want to believe that angels watch over them and their loved ones. I've met a fair number over the years who aren't Christians or even theists as such, but nonetheless believe in angels.

 

In the same way I think that so many love to consider the existence of imaginary ghosts and goblins, of "poltergeists"..

Human beings are fascinated with "the supernatural" in every aspect.

I now see Christianity as part of that same aspect of human fascination.

 

Consider carefully that word... "supernatural".

It's a nonsense word if you really look at it.

 

[midniterider]

4 hours ago, alreadyGone said:

 

That's something you would have to ask of someone who believes in the existence of magic.

And there are plenty of those people to ask. I suspect you could ask 100 or more of those folks and get 101 or more answers.

 

In my experience many want very much to believe that there are such imaginary things, much as so many want to believe that angels watch over them and their loved ones. I've met a fair number over the years who aren't Christians or even theists as such, but nonetheless believe in angels.

 

In the same way I think that so many love to consider the existence of imaginary ghosts and goblins, of "poltergeists"..

Human beings are fascinated with "the supernatural" in every aspect.

I now see Christianity as part of that same aspect of human fascination.

 

Consider carefully that word... "supernatural".

It's a nonsense word if you really look at it.

 

 

I just asked because you said "I would then assert that if there are no spirits...  there is and can be no magic."

 

I just wondered what you felt tied them both together in imaginary existence? You mentioned evidence. I'll go with that. I'm not questioning your belief or non-belief...just asking about your assertion. 

 

 

 

 

[alreadyGone]

Simply, to my thinking, and based on all I've ever heard of the thinking of others (in personal discussion, literature, etc), anything attributed to something called "magic" was the doing of some intelligent entity.

Usually the implication, if not assertion was that it was the doing of some supernatural being.

Satan, some demon, or else even a "good" angel or "other spirit".

 

Of course some people ascribe the power of working "magic" directly to human beings..

Could be, what do I know about it?

Many have claimed to witness some "magical" act personally.

I'm skeptical. 

 

Years ago someone loaned to me a book written by a Christian believer who claimed to have been converted from Satan-worship.

It was compelling reading. I read it from cover to cover in one sitting, probably 15 hours or so. And I am a "fast reader".

In that book was described everything from casting evil spells and seeing physical manifestations of magic to witnessing a visitation from Satan.

On Halloween of course.. It was said that ol' Satan was not omnipresent, so he made the rounds for brief visits on Halloween to many groups around the planet, popping in to present himself before his worshipers in each location then going on to the next..

 

If I recall correctly this was a Chick Publications book..

 

A bit in the same vein, I've known at least two (women of course) who collect "crystals" and ascribe many magical powers to them.

One woman I've known was quite serious about it, and sells quartz and other rocks online.

She (both of the women I've known in fact who are into that belief) cite "an energy" within the rock that they believe can effect healing, improvement of mental state, etc. 

When I asked (gently) if she/they could define the word "energy", she had no clue.

She certainly has no inkling of the laws of thermodynamics and does not understand electricity or magnetism..

Yet she would stake her life on the belief that those pretty rocks contain "energy".

Of course, so does a pound of zinc, or horseshit contain energy, as does all mass. But....

 

 

 

 

[midniterider]

7 hours ago, alreadyGone said:

Simply, to my thinking, and based on all I've ever heard of the thinking of others (in personal discussion, literature, etc), anything attributed to something called "magic" was the doing of some intelligent entity.

Usually the implication, if not assertion was that it was the doing of some supernatural being.

Satan, some demon, or else even a "good" angel or "other spirit".

 

Ah, theurgy. Got it. 

 

7 hours ago, alreadyGone said:

 

Of course, so does a pound of zinc, or horseshit contain energy, as does all mass. But....

 

 

 

 

 

lol. 

[♦ Fuego ♦]

There is the odd Genesis 30 section where mandrakes were being harvested. They are a root used in ritual magic.

In the same chapter, genetics were purposefully controlled by what sheep saw when they were mating. Jacob placed striped things in front of them to get stripes and dark colors. 

God was not mentioned in either case.

 

[WarriorPoet]

The simple fact is that the authors of the bible were not monotheists.  They were monolatrists.

 

https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/monolatry

 

It is very obvious that the authors believed that other gods were real.  For example:

Exodus 20:3 "Thou shalt have no other gods before me".  If other gods weren't believed to be real, it would more reasonably be "don't worship false gods".

In 2 Kings 3:27 the king of Moab sacrificed his son to his gods.  It is implied that this sacrifice to his gods helped his army force back the Israelite army's advance.

In Exodus, during the plagues, the Egyptian priests were able to replicate some of the wonders that Moses brought forth.  The author of this passage at the very least believed in the possibility that they did so with the power of their gods.

In the creation story in Genesis, Yahweh says "let us create mankind in our image".  (Emphasis added.)

There are several other examples.

 

The writers of the bible clearly believed that other gods were real.  They just believed that they served Bad Bad Yahweh Brown, the baddest god in the whole damn universe.*  There wouldn't be a reason for this god to be jealous (as described in the 10 commandments) if the other gods weren't believed to be real.

 

Given all of this, the belief in demons and their servants on earth, aka witches, was not a big leap.  Anyone that seemed to benefit from random circumstances could be accused of witchcraft, especially when those same random circumstances harmed others.

 

*This reference to a classic song popped into my head as I was typing this, I couldn't help myself and had to include it.

[pantheory]

On 5/25/2022 at 5:36 AM, Fuego said:

There is the odd Genesis 30 section where mandrakes were being harvested. They are a root used in ritual magic.

In the same chapter, genetics were purposefully controlled by what sheep saw when they were mating. Jacob placed striped things in front of them to get stripes and dark colors. 

God was not mentioned in either case.

 

 

It' appears to still be rather chilly up there in Vancouver Wa., unlike the rest of the US which is warmer. This chilly weather is also unusual for Vancouver Canada, sometimes called the Hawaii of Canada because of its usually warmer temperatures compared to the rest of Canada.

 

As to the Bible, much of it is very obviously a book of fiction, sometimes fun for me to read like ancient Greek and Roman religious mythology.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

49 minutes ago, pantheory said:

It' appears to still be rather chilly up there in Vancouver Wa., unlike the rest of the US which is warmer. This chilly weather is also unusual for Vancouver Canada, sometimes called the Hawaii of Canada because of its usually warmer temperatures compared to the rest of Canada.

 

As to the Bible, much of it is very obviously a book of fiction, sometimes fun for me to read like ancient Greek and Roman religious mythology.

 

It has been cool and with lots of rain. I keep seeing all of the heat wave problems elsewhere and think, I don't want that here. Keep the moisture coming. Things are absolutely lush. Last year we had the "heat dome" that killed a bunch of crops, ornamental shrubs, and some small critters. I have a generator that will run our house heat and appliances, but it can't run the cooling system. 

 

I wonder how many people have tried to get their animals to come out different shades or striped by following the absurdities of "it's in the Bible"? Or floating something that sank by tossing a piece of wood into the water (ax head 2 Kings 6). The cult leader I promoted for years would commonly deliver his own similar stories that absolutely thrilled church audiences, not realizing that it was pure imagination on his part and that his uber-Pentecostal belief is that if he really believes it, then it is true despite reality trying to quash his faith. 

[pantheory]

1 hour ago, Fuego said:

 

It has been cool and with lots of rain. I keep seeing all of the heat wave problems elsewhere and think, I don't want that here. Keep the moisture coming. Things are absolutely lush. Last year we had the "heat dome" that killed a bunch of crops, ornamental shrubs, and some small critters. I have a generator that will run our house heat and appliances, but it can't run the cooling system. 

 

I wonder how many people have tried to get their animals to come out different shades or striped by following the absurdities of "it's in the Bible"? Or floating something that sank by tossing a piece of wood into the water (ax head 2 Kings 6). The cult leader I promoted for years would commonly deliver his own similar stories that absolutely thrilled church audiences, not realizing that it was pure imagination on his part and that his uber-Pentecostal belief is that if he really believes it, then it is true despite reality trying to quash his faith. 

 

Hope nowadays there are fewer stupid people than in those Bible times that practiced that kind of laughable animal husbandry.

 

Yeah, I was up there in Vancouver Washington last fall. I flew up from Los Angeles to Portland Or, and drove the additional maybe 40 minutes to Vancouver, then spent about 2 weeks there.  I'm sure it was as beautiful as always. Before planning to go there, I thought Vancouver Wa. was next to Vancouver Canada. I now know of historical Fort Vancouver but didn't have time to visit it while I was there.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Why is magic so popular?  If you believe in it, anything is possible!        And you don't have to come up with an explanation.     Same holds true with "god did it."   In todays society the maturation level for believing in magic normally ends at about 6 or 7 years of age.