Discussing Noah's Flood

[Wertbag]

This is kind of where I began my journey, I've just accelerated the many discussions and brought them together in a single dialog.  

 

"Teacher, am I correct that the bible says there was a global flood around 4000 years ago?"

"Yes, that is correct, the bible should always be taken literally"

"Okay...  I just had some questions I'm struggling with.  For instance where did the water come from and where did it go?"

"God is all-powerful, so He made it appear magically, then removed it when He was done"

"Right, and how did the animals get to the ark and back home again?"

"He teleported them to the boat, then teleported them home once it dried out"

"And how did the millions of creatures fit on the boat?"

"It wouldn't be millions, you see god uses 'Kinds' which are super creatures that can evolve at an amazing rate.  So one 'kind' of cat, evolved in a short period of time to the hundreds of different species we now see.  He then turned off the super evolution so its back to the speed we see today"

"I see.  And how did those thousands of kinds survive on the boat for a year?"

"Suspended animation.  Have you seen sci-fi movies where the crew are put in cryo chambers?  Same idea, god just froze them in time.  No problems"

"And how did Noah live to be hundreds of years old?  People didn't live as long back then..."

"God made Adam and Eve perfect, and that perfection meant they would live forever.  They sinned, and since then the life expectancy has gone down, until it stabilized at about 120 years"

"And how did the fish survive a flood?"

"God magically protected them."

"And the trees?  Insects?  Ancient cave paintings?  Egyptian mummies?"

"God magically protected them all"

"Does the bible actually say all these other miracles occurred?"

"No, but god is all-powerful, so its all well within what He's capable of doing"

"So collecting the wood?"

"Magic"

"Protecting the wood from the elements?"

"Magic"

"The wooden only boat not leaking?"

"Magic"

"The boat surviving the greatest storm ever?"

"Magic"

"The energy release from the size of the storm required not annihilating the planet?"

"Magic"

"Arctic and desert animals surviving onboard?"

"Magic"

"Only 8 people crewing the boat, looking after the animals and repopulating the world?"

"Magic, magic and more magic"

"What about the claim that the Epic of Gilgamesh is an earlier telling of the same story?"

"They talk about the same event, the Epic just tries to fit it into another false religions beliefs, so it gets it all screwed up"

"Okay, so am I right in guessing 'magic' is the answer to why the world doesn't show geological evidence, why the fossils are layered, how the predators didn't wipe out all species after they got off the boat, how inbreeding didn't wipe all species out and incest, for the second time after Adam and Eve, could be used to repopulate the world without problem?"

"Yes, god is all-powerful, so magic answers everything.  Just don't try to think about it"

 

Unfortunately, I did think about it...

[walterpthefirst]

The prime reason why the Southern Ocean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Ocean is the stormiest and roughest area of open sea in the world is Wind Fetch.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_fetch 

 If the wind direction is constant, the longer the fetch and the greater the wind speed, the more wind energy is transferred to the water surface and the larger the resulting sea state will be. Sea state will increase over time until local energy dissipation balances energy transfer to the water from the wind and a fully developed sea results.

 

Or, put more simply, the larger the expanse of open sea and the longer the wind blows over the, the larger the waves will become.

 

The winds blowing over the Southern Ocean can travel freely around Antarctica, avoiding the land masses of Australia and New Zealand, South Africa and South America.  This means that there are no solid barriers to deflect either wind or wave as they surge in a 360 degree circle around the world.  This also means that the wind fetch of the Southern Ocean can build up and up without interruption by land.  It also explains why the seas off Cape Horn (the tip of South America) are feared by mariners.  All of the wind fetch built up from the circumpolar travels of the water are compressed as they are funnelled between Cape Horn and the North-facing Antarctic peninsula.

 

But what if the entire surface of the Earth was completely covered in water, as per Noah's Flood?

 

Then, because there are no land masses there would unlimited wind fetch and with that comes the possibility of truly enormous waves.  But how big is enormous?  This Wind Fetch Calculator created by the Woods Hole Coastal and Marine Science Center can tell us.  

http://csherwood-usgs.github.io/jsed/Fetch and Depth Limited Waves, USGS.html

 

A Wind Speed of 20 mph, a Fetch of 21,638 miles (the circumference of the Earth) and a Water Depth of 1,000 feet gives us a Significant Wave Height of 10.447 feet over a Period of 8.023 seconds.  Nothing for the Ark to worry about.

 

But the Flood lasted for forty days and in a fully submerged world there are no land masses to dissipate the build up of wave energy.  Furthermore, a depth of just a thousand feet is hardly realistic, given that we are talking about adding an extra five miles depth of water above our current sea level.  That's what's needed to submerge the peak of Mount Everest.  So, instead of inputting a depth of just a thousand feet, let's opt for a conservative five thousand feet.  And let's double the wind speed and recalculate.  Now the Significant Wave Height is 57.469 feet over a period of 18.741 seconds.  Can the Ark really cope with waves approaching sixty feet in height?

 

Seeing as the Ark was afloat for forty days it seems unlikely that it would have encountered no storms at all.  Therefore, consulting the Beaufort Scale, let's see what Storm Force windspeeds are.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort_scale The answer is 55 to 63 mph.  Let's round that 60 mph and recalculate.  The Significant Wave Height is now 153.461 feet over a period of 29.395 seconds.  Is the Ark in serious trouble now?

 

If the Ark encountered a Violent Storm the windspeed increases to 64 to 72 mph.  Let's round that to 70 mph and recalculate.  The Significant Wave Height is 216.869 feet over a period of 34.217 seconds.  The waves are now four times higher than the Ark, so can it survive them?

 

And if the Ark was caught in Hurricane force windspeeds (over 73 mph) we can probably round that up to 80 mph.  Let's recalculate.  The Significant Wave Height is 284.128 feet over a period of 36.618 seconds.  The Ark itself measured 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high.  Surely it must have been smashed to pieces?

 

But no!

 

Why?

 

Wertbag's already given us the answer.

 

 

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

29 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Furthermore, a depth of just a thousand feet is hardly realistic, given that we are talking about adding an extra five miles depth of water above our current sea level.  That's what's needed to submerge the peak of Mount Everest.  So, instead of inputting a depth of just a thousand feet, let's opt for a conservative five thousand feet.

Mt. Everest is estimated to be over 29,000 feet high.  1 mile is 5,280 feet.  So, a conservative 5,000 feet would barely get Mt. Everest's feet wet.  You need closer to 6 miles of water to completely submerge it.  Once you do the math on that, our hypothetical apologist will simply claim that Mt. Everest didn't exist prior to the flood; but was created as a result of the flood.  Or, magic.

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Mt. Everest is estimated to be over 29,000 feet high.  1 mile is 5,280 feet.  So, a conservative 5,000 feet would barely get Mt. Everest's feet wet.  You need closer to 6 miles of water to completely submerge it.  Once you do the math on that, our hypothetical apologist will simply claim that Mt. Everest didn't exist prior to the flood; but was created as a result of the flood.  Or, magic.

 

Yeah, I know it Prof.

 

But you know how it is.  When the monkey god Hanuman jumped the fifty miles from the tip of India to Sri Lanka, that was magic.  When Milarepa the holy man flew over the Himalayas, that was magic too.  When the horse Buraq carried the prophet Mohammed up to heaven to meet Allah, that was also magic.  But when the prophet Elijah was carried up to heaven in a fiery chariot, that wasn't magic.

 

One man's miracle is another man's magic.