Guest Emerson Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 Truth is something that I think many search for. I've searched for it since I was 13. How do you know if you've found truth? My unbelief now seems as strong as my belief in my faith used to be. The mind is powerful and I just gotta wonder how do we know that we're not duping ourselves whether its with religion or without? It seems that no matter what you study or how much you study from different sides of beliefs, for every argument there's another one for religion and there's another one against it. Sometimes I wonder if god tried to reach out to humankind with different religions/faiths. It seems that you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. I used to be so scared of atheism, I'd avoid books on the topic and atheists if I knew any. I was scared they'd destroy my faith. Well now that I'm in my twenties, its time to stop hiding and start exploring my beliefs all of them and not just my take on religion and faith. I want to be hit with the sides on all angles of doubt and faith, and its been hard. Its been challenging, I don't know if I'll become an atheist. That's such a hard outlook for me to take. But yet what if that's the truth? Is truth relative then? Bah, I'm now babbling but I just want to know the truth. Why does it have to be so hard? Why can't I be one of the "few" that can know it? Whether or not truth is god or isn't, I just want to know it. What are we doing here day after day? Why are we so limited in knowing such things? Honestly, I don't think that I'll ever find truth. Yet where do emotions come from? Our diverse personalities? and knowing there'll never be another "me" or another Mr. Grinch . What makes us so unique, that there's never another Julius Cesar or me or Mr. Grinch. After all I don't see another Fred Astaire and I don't mean dancers. I guess I'm still hanging on to theism, and death...I guess I want to be "ready" for what may come next if anything. I guess I'm sad to think that this is just it, that it doesn't really mean anything in the long run. You know? its a little depressing and sad. I'd like to hear from everyone even christians. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 Emerson. I'm real sorry to answer your post with such a short answer. You put a lot of thought into this. Is there "Truth" for us to seek? The answer depend entirely on how honest the person answering is....and how much honesty you can stand. Beware ANY person who claims to have all the answers. Life is way to complex for that to ever be possible. As for truth? I really don't know. I think a lot of people claim to be seeking truth, when in fact they are looking for something else.... balance, peace, harmony, and a good side helping of all the answers to everything life could ever throw at them. Balance, personal peace, and harmony are doable. This qualifies more as an "improvement of personal ideals" than a search for truth though......but it doesn't sound as cool. And that side helping is of course, completely impossible. There is always room for improvement of self. Learning about the world, it's people, it's cultures....all that can contribute to the self. Sitting on a rock staring at the sea can improve the self too....and costs a lot less than a meditative yoga class! I can say this....if there is a "truth" it is broad, and very flexible. Ironically the opposite of the "straight and narrow" path the organized religions tend to claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open_Minded Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 Is truth relative then? Our understanding of truth is relative. .... I just want to know the truth. Why does it have to be so hard? It has to be so hard because what we are searching for infinite - therefore beyond our finite human capacity to fully grasp - or understand. Why can't I be one of the "few" that can know it? Whether or not truth is god or isn't, I just want to know it. Which one of the "few" would that be. If any one person knew for certain (in the concrete scientific sense of knowing) we would all "know". I guess I'm still hanging on to theism, and death...I guess I want to be "ready" for what may come next if anything. I guess I'm sad to think that this is just it, that it doesn't really mean anything in the long run. You know? its a little depressing and sad.Emerson... no one can ever "know" for certain, in the scientific concrete sense of "knowing". But, I do believe it is possible to "know" on another level - a more subjective level. You said you would like to hear from everyone, even Christians. So, here goes. I am Christian. I've not always called myself Christian. There was a time in my life I would have gone by Diest. I also grew up in a house with a Diest mother and an agnostic/athiest father. If I have learned anything in life it is that truth is not static. What we consider "truth" today may not be what we consider "truth" tomorrow. But, that does not mean there is no truth. I adamently believe there is. The trouble is - we are searching after an infinite truth - and as I said earlier - since the truth we seek is infinite and we are finite then no one of us can ever fully grasp it, ever fully have every answer. I've brought this comparison up in other conversations, but it bears repeating here. Humanity trying to know ultimate reality (in a scientific sense of knowing) is like the tree trying to know the forest in a concrete, sense of knowing. The tree can not leave its roots in place and wander the whole width and breadth of the forest to discover every nook and cranny. The tree cannot leave its roots in place and sprout wings to fly over the forest and see it in its entirety. The tree is rooted in its own place and the ONLY way it can know the forest is to participate in the forest. That is it - when all is said and done its knowledge will come from participation, from experiences, from just simply living and breathing the forest. We can know the infinite, but we know it from a subjective point of view. We know it from our own rooted location - and we are rooted. We are rooted in a particular place and time. We are rooted in a particular culture, a particular worldview. We do not have to cling to the worldview we were given as children; we do not even have to cling to the culture we were given. Our time and place within the universe is pretty set, but we can explore other times before ours. To a limited degree we can even explore other places in the universe. But, having acknowledged the flexibility of our rootedness, we are still bound in ways we have no control over. And our knowing, our ability to percieve that which is infinite is bound up in all of this. There are very few things we can "know" for certain. We live, we breathe, we have the capacity for wonder, for thought and self-reflection ... and we do all this within something much too grand for our finite capacity to understand ... this something is Sacredness itself. Whatever the final attributes are, it is Sacredness simply because it IS - and it is grandeur itself (completely and totally beyond our ability to fully grasp). And we do live and breathe and have our being within IT. We will never fully grasp this Sacredness with our rational minds, it is just physically impossible to do so. But, like the tree in the forest ... we can know this ONENESS within all through all and beyond all by simply experiencing it. By simply living within it and allowing ourselves to be aware of it in all of life. Does this answer your question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 I think we can know individual truths and be comfortable with them, but as far as one great The Truth , we may never know. We all come into this world knowing nothing, and our knowledge is accumulated over time as we grow and process input.....both individually and collectively. Some of that input we receive through what we are told by others (parents, teachers, etc.) and other input we receive through firsthand experience. And from all that input it's our job to determine what is true and what isn't. And that's not always an easy task, especially with the stuff that people tell us and we can't experience firsthand. But we do the best we can given our own means, ability and circumstances, etc. And I think that's the most important lesson any of us can go away with.... just do your best. If there really is a god, will he punish us because that's what we did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedah Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 The answer depend entirely on how honest the person answering is....and how much honesty you can stand. Beware ANY person who claims to have all the answers. Life is way to complex for that to ever be possible. This is the very reason I consider myself Agnostic. We are imperfect, and because of that even if we did stumble accross the truth...even if that "Objective source of knowledge" ever came within our grasp we would still only be able to touch it with our own subjective understanding. Because of this, I think the closest thing to coming towards the truth is simply accepting that truth is an unreachable concept and trying to claim that you know what it is is silly. And I would have to disagree with Open on us being able to "know" the truth subjectively. Thats just another word for faith. Believing that you know doesnt mean you know - even if you are right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padreko Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 The truth is you're going to beat this horse so fucking dead its going to be unrecognizable when you're finished, and then you're just going to be exhausted. It is only then you'll be satisfied. You're not searching for truth, you're searching for what makes the most sense to you, and on some level that is what truth is, but we can't have absolute knowledge of everything. Our minds are just not strong enough to understand it all. Just enjoy this existence we all share while you can. As for other questions that have objective answers, all you need is to read a few books or essays on the subject. You want to know why we have diverse personalities, take some brain and cognitive science courses. Wikipedia is also a good source Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricky18 Posted May 1, 2006 Share Posted May 1, 2006 Yah,Why does religion have to be based on "Taking the Gamble" called faith.Putting you all your eggs in one basket.At the end of th day everyone wants to know the truth and do the right thing and serve your creator.There are so much room for doubt that we never get to know the truth and never get to be what we are made to be. I think most Christians turn away from Christianity because of doubts that they are moving in the right direction, Than knowing the truth and folling the rules and regulations of that truth.What I mean is that Its not eg. Doing or not doing the will of God that causes us to fall away but faith that we're are surving our true maker that is causing us to fall away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted May 1, 2006 Share Posted May 1, 2006 The truth is you're going to beat this horse so fucking dead its going to be unrecognizable when you're finished, and then you're just going to be exhausted. It is only then you'll be satisfied. You're not searching for truth, you're searching for what makes the most sense to you, and on some level that is what truth is, but we can't have absolute knowledge of everything. Our minds are just not strong enough to understand it all. Just enjoy this existence we all share while you can. This sums it up very well. I laugh to myself sometimes that I keep hearing the words, "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free," when I remember that moment of realization that the only truth is there is no truth. Realizing that the whole pursuit of "the truth" is an act of futility, freed my spirit to look for "meaning" right here today instead. To me, that is much more "the truth" than what some might imagine some external god-creature might want from us. What we are really looking for is meaning, and that becomes "truth" for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted May 1, 2006 Share Posted May 1, 2006 Now I'm gonna put a little twist in it, is the statement "there is no truth" the truth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyb Posted May 1, 2006 Share Posted May 1, 2006 Now I'm gonna put a little twist in it, is the statement "there is no truth" the truth? Lol...I was agreeing till you threw that wrench in. Actually, there is truth, but our minds are finite. All you can do with trying to find the truth about god is try to make an educated guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted May 1, 2006 Share Posted May 1, 2006 That's the problem to define what truth is, if there doesn't exist an absolute truth, then that is an absolute truth in itself. So some kind of absolute truth must exist. But like you said, can we understand it or know it? And regarding God as truth maybe is the wrong question. If we can't know truth, then we can't know the truth about God. He exists and he doesn't at the same time, just like the superposition of quarks, they exists in many states at the same time. Or the inertia vs position of particles, you can't know both. Maybe God doesn't exist just yet, maybe he will one day, when the universe collapses. So today he doesn't, but he's in a long time sleep, and won't wake up until the time (our universe time) has ended. Hehe. Soon someone will throw tomatoes at me and scream "get out of here!" Haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted May 1, 2006 Share Posted May 1, 2006 That's the problem to define what truth is, if there doesn't exist an absolute truth, then that is an absolute truth in itself. So some kind of absolute truth must exist. The problem with stating, "there is no truth", is actually only in the limits of our spoken language. It is not a contradiction to any sort of objective reality. It's one of those oxymorons that happen because of language. "We can't know anything for certain", is another example. They are true statements as best as the language can do, and do not violate what it is intending to communicate. I do not agree that an absolute truth must exist if it is based on the shortcomings of the language. I might be wrong, but I think mathematics would be a better language for these sorts of ideas to be communicated. But like you said, can we understand it or know it? And regarding God as truth maybe is the wrong question. If we can't know truth, then we can't know the truth about God. He exists and he doesn't at the same time, just like the superposition of quarks, they exists in many states at the same time. Or the inertia vs position of particles, you can't know both. Maybe God doesn't exist just yet, maybe he will one day, when the universe collapses. So today he doesn't, but he's in a long time sleep, and won't wake up until the time (our universe time) has ended. Hehe. Soon someone will throw tomatoes at me and scream "get out of here!" Haha. I agree that for all purposes whether there is some absolute truth, we certainly cannot know it because we can't have knowledge of all things (there's the language failing again). The best we can hope for is finding what we can all agree upon as the most objectively valid understanding of something and call that true - with qualification as not being absolutely true. The rest of what we call "truth" is more about what we find meaningful on a personal level. "I have found the truth and it has set my spirit free, there is no truth!" That then is "truth" to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Emerson Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 The truth is you're going to beat this horse so fucking dead its going to be unrecognizable when you're finished, and then you're just going to be exhausted. Your sensitive is astounding. Yes, Yes I am. I am going to beat it until the horse is dead and extinct. Hehe. But honestly you are very much right in that it can drive a person crazy, no one can really know absolute truth or knowledge if it exists. I guess in some way whether you walk by faith or not, you sort of have to go with what you think is right for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanInPA Posted May 3, 2006 Share Posted May 3, 2006 The truth is, this life is probably all there is, so we better make the fucking most of it. Start now, don't dwell on the unknowable. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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