What do you think of ghosts and demons?

[Pinkbunion]

Where I live in the Philippines, a lot of people are religious and many of them believe in ghosts and demons. One of the things that still troubles me from my deconversion is my fear of ghosts, demons, evil spirits etc. I'm still doubting whether they're true or not. Also, people in my place would always talk about it during conversations if there's an opportunity to include it. Moreover, I'll mention some events in the recent months that stuck with me regarding this topic. One time, during the shuttle ride from our workplace, one of my workmates played a video from a content creator that showed how a person that has a third eye saw evil spirits during their stay in a quarantine place during the pandemic. After some time, he was allowed to leave, but his companion was still in the quarantine place. They made video calls together, and the person with the third eye recorded their video calls and said he heard the evil spirits in the recordings. The content creator played one recording and there were laughs from kids from the recording. The content creator said that "according to the old people", which is what people always say around here when it comes to who they get their spiritual information from, is that those where demons or evil spirits. For me, I thought "Hmmm, what if those where just the neighborhood kids laughing? Or what if there's kids inside the place, laughing and playing?". It was all made with creepy background music which made it scary. It made me worried and scared about it, and I wondered if they really did exist. The second event occurred during another shuttle ride home. Our route home would have us ride past an empty area where construction was going on, at the main highway. This area was once a mall that burned down, and people died during the event. My workmates said that a condominium was being erected at the said area. They then joked that they won't ever avail of the condo if it was near the spot where the area burned down because they're afraid that they might hear crying or shouting from the ghosts, or that the ghosts would say "help me!" or that they might see burned people who are the ghosts of the deceased. The third event happened in the workplace, in that whenever there's a blackout, where its hard to see because its dark, people would lie and joke that they see "someone"- a ghost, behind their workmate, usually said in jest, and that they're afraid to go the bathroom/comfort room because they might see ghosts. The fourth event involves my mother talking about our neighbor who, after having lost his appetite and cannot eat because he would vomit the food after having a major sickness that affected his organs, said that he regained his appetite after "the priest blessed their house" and removed the evil spirit that lived in their house. She also said that a normal person could not do such a thing because one needs a strong will to fight the evil spirits. My mom said that the neighbor thought the evil spirit knocked him down in their bathroom/comfort room and that her hair stood up/got chills thinking about it. For me, I thought, "what if he ate something or drank something that made his appetite return?". I asked my mom that, and she didn't know if he did so. She also said about another person who also lost his appetite because of a stroke, but got it back after eating certain foods. That's all the events. So, I'm curious about your thoughts, thank you!

[◊ Weezer ◊]

I would call it superstitions.  You were probably right about the recording having actual children laughing.  And a friend had an illness that caused her to throw up, but with treatment it went away in a few days.  Some people seem to enjoy scaring people with ghost and spirt stories. Or do it as  acheme to get money.  Try not to lose any sleep about it.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

10 hours ago, Pinkbunion said:

It was all made with creepy background music which made it scary.

 

Music manipulates our emotions, which is why it is used in movies and also during church services. Emotional attachment to an idea makes the idea strong in our minds instead of just a concept. Documentaries don't even need music because they are presenting facts that can be verified. But Christianity relies on belief, so to make belief stronger they have to get your emotions to react (fear, hope, joy, love, hatred, shame) to make their claims feel real instead of silly. 

 

When I was little, I used to be afraid of monsters, and that set me up for being manipulated. Just an advertisement for an old movie from 1973 called "The Exorcist" is what caused me to become a Christian, and 35 years later after I deconverted from Christianity, I watched the whole film a couple of times. Instead of being scary, it was now absurd. I knew that Christianity wasn't true, so the entire basis of the monster in the movie was also not true. In fact, I knew more about their "monster" which was in real history a statue of a Babylonian wind god that protected children, not a Christian fallen angel/demon. 

 

In church, it was common to hear how fears were spread by people saying "I heard..." and then they give some story about something silly like backwards messages in popular music, video games that make the person sign a contract with Satan, abortion being child sacrifice to Satan, "feeling" demonic presence in book stores because of Harry Potter books, and so on. We had a handful of people that said they were experts on Spiritual Warfare, and we had several church gatherings where they spoke and showed images that they claimed showed proof. At the time because I was a believer, it seemed plausible and therefore true, but it was all hooey. 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, Fuego said:

but it was all hooey.

"Hooey" is a word that does not get used often enough in ordinary speech.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

10 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

"Hooey" is a word that does not get used often enough in ordinary speech.

It was used a lot in Oklahoma when I was a kid. 

[alreadyGone]

My observation, posted here several times in the past:

-No one can even define the word "spirit"..   human spirit, divine spirit, demon spirit

-There is no objective proof that any spirit, of any kind actually exists.

 

-Who among us has ever seen a spirit?

 

 

[alreadyGone]

On 2/5/2023 at 11:34 AM, Fuego said:

 

...

When I was little, I used to be afraid of monsters,

...

 

 

Fear the human monsters.

I do.

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, alreadyGone said:

My observation, posted here several times in the past:

-No one can even define the word "spirit"..   human spirit, divine spirit, demon spirit

-There is no objective proof that any spirit, of any kind actually exists.

 

-Who among us has ever seen a spirit?

 

 

 

I might have seen a ghost.

 

According to my wife, that is.  I was working in the meadow near her family home and out of the corner of my eye I thought I saw someone watching me.  When I turned to get a better look there was nobody there.  So I dismissed it as a figment of my imagination.  But then things started to get weird.

 

When I told her about it she asked me to describe the person.  He was an old man, slightly hunched over, wearing a dark blue sweater and staring intently at me with a squint in one eye.  "Oh, that was my grandad." she said.  "His ashes were scattered there."  What makes this episode so difficult to explain away are the following facts, as related to me by Audrey.

 

1.  Her grandfather died in his mid-eighties.  I never met him but I knew this.  The man I might have seen would have been in this age range.

2. He had a favourite dark blue sweater.  I did not know this.  Even if I had seen photos of him (I hadn't) they would probably be in black & white.

3. He had significant curvature of the spine.  I did not know this and had never seen any photos or images of him.  Nor do I recall anyone telling me this beforehand.

4. He had a pronounced squint in his left eye.  I did not know this either, never having seen pictures of him nor hearing anyone relate this to me.

5. Nor did I know that he had been cremated and had his ashes scattered in the meadow, decades before I was there.

 

So, the lingering and still unanswered question is this.  If what I thought I saw was just a figment of my imagination, then how is it that five separate details about the person I 'saw' match those of my wife's long dead grandfather?  I have no answers and no rational explanation.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

[Wertbag]

Two different beliefs there.  You can believe in ghosts and still be an atheist, but demon's (at least in the classic sense) are religiously inspired boogeymen.  There are people who believe in either one but not the other.  Personally, I see no reason to think a soul exists, so that rules out most ghost claims, and when you take into account our terrible memories, pattern hunting nature, poor and easily confused perception, the influence of drugs, alcohol, dehydration, illness, mental illness or stress, confirmation bias, Mandela effect, scammers, fake photos/videos/audio and generally lacklustre brains, there are so many possibilities that are more likely than anything supernatural.

 

There are fascinating discussions with people who suffer from schizophrenia or similar mental delusions where they can have a full half hour conversation with someone who isn't there.  One sufferer only realised the person he was talking to didn't exist when he tried to take their photo and found they didn't appear on his phone.  Another reported seeing car sized spiders walking down the road.  The images and sounds their brains tell them they are receiving are as real to them as any other person they meet, to the point they cannot tell who is real and who is not.  If our brains can break that completely, that reality itself cannot be known, then seeing supernatural things may well point to the mind being out of sync with the real world.

 

Even for a really compelling story such as Walter's, we are unable to know for sure what was known but forgotten, what was said or not, what physical or mental state he was in, and of course have no way to repeat or test the experience.  The end result is an untestable mystery, which while a fascinating subject, doesn't give us anything we can work on to confirm or prove such things false.

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

I have several "sane" relatives who have seen ghosts.  They were all silent and disappeared in a few seconds.

[Wertbag]

1 hour ago, Weezer said:

I have several "sane" relatives who have seen ghosts.  They were all silent and disappeared in a few seconds.

The ghosts or your relatives? 

[walterpthefirst]

4 hours ago, Wertbag said:

 

 

Even for a really compelling story such as Walter's, we are unable to know for sure what was known but forgotten, what was said or not, what physical or mental state he was in, and of course have no way to repeat or test the experience.  The end result is an untestable mystery, which while a fascinating subject, doesn't give us anything we can work on to confirm or prove such things false.

 

 

And Wertbag's excellent summation explains why my experience hasn't pushed me towards believing in the existence of ghosts or the supernatural.

 

I could not repeat or test my experience, leaving me with a mystery.

 

And as an atheist who tries to base his world view upon that which can be repeated and tested, I do not dismiss the possibility of ghosts or the supernatural.

 

Instead I remain open minded and wait for evidence that meets my necessary threshold for belief.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

[♦ Fuego ♦]

4 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

Instead I remain open minded and wait for evidence that meets my necessary threshold for belief.

 

Yes. I have experiences from Christianity that still make me wonder things like "who spoke to me those times, how was the voice accurate when I didn't know the details, why did it speak about X and not far more important things, why did I feel waves of energy that were described perfectly by my wife who was also feeling them". We have friends with an old Victorian house who talk about their "green lady", they catch a glimpse of her green dress swishing around a corner but no physical human is there. They've had kids show up to play with the other kid who lives there, only no kid lives there. Nothing scary, just fascinating to ponder.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

On 2/8/2023 at 11:27 PM, Wertbag said:

The ghosts or your relatives? 

Sadly it was the ghosts who disappeared!  

[florduh]

I always preferred fairies, sprites and the occasional leprechaun.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, florduh said:

I always preferred fairies, sprites and the occasional leprechaun.

I won't turn a Sprite down; but I'd much rather have a Pepsi.