3 types of miracles

[Wertbag]

Miracles can be broken down into 3 categories:

Common - Events that happen every day but cause a sense of wonder.  Things such as the miracle of birth, the beauty of a sunset or being moved by music.  Things we understand are natural but are subjectively special.

 

Uncommon - Events that are a one in a million.  Winning the lottery, surviving a plane crash, a house untouched by a tornado or cancer going into remission.  Things that are against the odds, but still understood to be possible.  These events are not unique, but very rare.

 

Supernatural - Things that go against the natural laws.  One-time magic events that require supernatural agents to have intervened in the world to do something we couldn't achieve ourselves.

 

The problem I've noticed in many Christian testimonials is that these 3 distinct categories get blended together, and common miracles are then used to prove supernatural agency.

It is very common to hear a Christian talk about "feeling God work in their life" or "my life has been improved in so many ways by the hand of God", yet when you get to the meat of what is being claimed it is often things like "I got a good parking spot at the mall" or "I found my lost keys after I prayed for help" or "I prayed for help and got a promotion at work".  Having proved "miracles" are occurring in their lives, they then conclude that all forms of miracles occur, even though by their own description its only categories 1&2.

 

One testimonial I read, the woman said both her and her brother had cancer at the same time (treatable forms), her dog died, car broke down, one of her parents passed away and everything was going wrong.  She called out to God "Oi, what's up with all this?" and the very next day she was given a promotion at work.  The surgery for both was successful, the increased pay covered the car, and she could afford a new dog.  Everything turned around, and all after she prayed for help...  halleluiah!  

Of course, that is a series of common and uncommon events, with nothing supernatural actually happening.  The parent and dog are still gone, but she gives full credence that a category 3 miracle just turned everything around for her.  It is this kind of automatic applying of supernatural agency that allows Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindus and every other religion to equally claim to feel their Gods and attribute "miracles" to them.

 

What I want is for someone to carry out category 3 miracles on demand, just like Elijah's test.  Call fire from the sky to prove God.  It's claimed He can do it and has done it in the past, so why has none of the billions of devout believers in any religion been unable to achieve anything remotely like these claims?  As the saying goes "why does God not heal amputees?", He sticks to healing those with curable illnesses and doing His healing via doctors.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I saw a video several years ago wherein an older woman supposedly "died" whilst sitting on a bench at Walmart.  Somebody prayed over a starlight mint and placed it into the woman's mouth.  Almost immediately she began to revive; and within just a few moments she was completely reanimated. 

 

That's what happens when a diabetic lets their blood sugar run too low and then gets a good dose of glucose.  

 

But, of course... jesus.

[older]

5 hours ago, Wertbag said:

...

What I want is for someone to carry out category 3 miracles on demand, just like Elijah's test.  Call fire from the sky to prove God.  It's claimed He can do it and has done it in the past, so why has none of the billions of devout believers in any religion been unable to achieve anything remotely like these claims?  As the saying goes "why does God not heal amputees?", He sticks to healing those with curable illnesses and doing His healing via doctors.

  

Yup. And I've challenged this alleged god, using all my Navy language vocabulary (and if you were in the Navy, I need say no more), called him/her/it all sorts of insulting, vile names, and dared him to strike me dead with a bolt of lightening. And I'm still here.

 

And regarding dogs, when I was 12 and still being dragged to church, my dog ran away. I prayed for his return, and it took a week but sure enough, we got him back. Two weeks later, having just dressed in my coat and tie for church, I found him dead in the back yard. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Somebody musta prayed for him to die!  

[older]

15 hours ago, Weezer said:

Somebody musta prayed for him to die!  

  

Hm. Interesting question: If two people make contradictory prayers, which one prevails? Something else to add to the list of questions for the faithful.

[pantheory]

On 4/5/2023 at 7:25 PM, older said:

  

Yup. And I've challenged this alleged god, using all my Navy language vocabulary (and if you were in the Navy, I need say no more), called him/her/it all sorts of insulting, vile names, and dared him to strike me dead with a bolt of lightening. And I'm still here.

 

And regarding dogs, when I was 12 and still being dragged to church, my dog ran away. I prayed for his return, and it took a week but sure enough, we got him back. Two weeks later, having just dressed in my coat and tie for church, I found him dead in the back yard. 

 

As a youngster I used to pray like every other religious Christian. I never went to Sunday school where they taught religion. I just went to church with my family and listened to the preacher's sermons. My mother was a school teacher but asked me to study Christianity for her,  about age 12-13. Maybe she thought that while learning it  I might give her insights of it since she was a true believer.  But the more I read the bible and related books, the more it made me think, which was a bad thing for my mother since 2-3 years thereafter I went from a Christian to an atheist, also never learning any of it from my readings. The bible and related stories all started sounding like books of fiction to me.

 

I didn't tell my mother when she asked me how my Christian studies were going. I told her the parts of it that I thought had logic to it. I was never mad, hurt, or disappointed with religion any more than one would get hurt when they understood that there was no Santa. Upon studying further I began to view all religions of the world like Greek mythology, but some with interesting philosophical concepts. So I went to churches, many types of temples, synagogues, etc. at that time. It wasn't purely academic however, since I was also always looking to find agreeable women.

 

When in college, I finally told my mother that I didn't believe any longer, I don't remember if I used the word atheist or not. Afterwards she blamed my college education in science for turning me into a non-believer, but instead it just gave me better understandings concerning the irrational thinking and beliefs of religion. Never to my face, but to my sisters years later, she said that she thought of me as an educated fool. But she never lost he love and kindness towards me, nor did I toward my religious family. Maybe all were afraid to argue with me however, about almost anything since I expressed my opinions so seldom. Even then I wouldn't argue religion, I would just use words like silly, and Greek mythology, but not if I believed I would hurt someone's feelings, which unfortunately has happened anyway.  Even here. I don't like to argue religion, i just try to make degradingly humorous remarks  about it when someone is proselytizing, but enjoy answering questions about almost every subject,  by almost anyone, when asked -- if I believe I know the answer or wish to express an opinion.

 

Even as a pure atheist I still go to church from time to time when asked. But if they persist in asking again and again, there better be something in it for me other than religion

[older]

Ah, Pantheory, you mention not arguing religion. Yes. It accomplishes little. 

 

But you write, 

9 hours ago, pantheory said:

So I went to churches, many types of temples, synagogues, etc. at that time. It wasn't purely academic however, since I was also always looking to find agreeable women.

  

So the question is: Were you successful? 

[pantheory]

2 hours ago, older said:

Ah, Pantheory, you mention not arguing religion. Yes. It accomplishes little. 

 

But you write, 

  

So the question is: Were you successful? 

Yeah, I was successful. I always use kind words for those feelings I believe I may hurt. Not always successful, but I try. For those more aggressive I usually say something like thanks, but I'm not interested, then move away quickly.

[walterpthefirst]

On 4/6/2023 at 9:44 PM, older said:

  

Hm. Interesting question: If two people make contradictory prayers, which one prevails? Something else to add to the list of questions for the faithful.