What is a Christian?

[Wertbag]

If I had been asked when I was younger "What is a Christian?" I would have had the common answer "A follower of Jesus and his teachings".  Now days I've come to realize there is no agreement on how to define a "true" Christian.  

One recent conversation had the Christian tell me "Only those who believe in the divinity of Jesus and the trinity are true Christians", so he believed that unitarians (any one who believes Jesus is the son of God, chosen one, prophet or any other term other than God in flesh) are not Christian.  Of course, the JW's and Mormons fall into this category, so he has already ruled out millions of people who self-identify as Christian.

Another Christian told me "Only those who are "born again" are true Christians, all others have not received the holy spirit so are fake".  The obvious problem here is that "born again" is a self-applied label that has no physical meaning.  Someone who is "born again" is indistinguishable from someone who is not.

There are also many Protestant Christians who say the Catholics are not true Christians, as they do not follow the bibles teachings correctly, while the Catholics say the same of the Protestants in turn (and centuries of European warfare shows how they are willing to treat those who do Christianity wrong).

So, what if a Christian was never baptized?  Has not read the bible?  Does not hold to a literal interpretation? Or doesn't pray in the correct manner?  There are people out there that will use any of these criteria as labels for what a "true" Christian must be.  And of course the common line to any ex-Christian is that they were never a true Christian to begin with (regardless of how devout they were).

 

This has an interesting roll-on effect, in that any survey, poll or questionnaire will have those groups self-identify as Christian. When we see numbers like 80% of Ameria is Christian, that would be quite a different statistic if we remove millions of Mormons, JW, unitarians of all types. If you start adding other criteria, then it is very hard to take any statistic as believable.

On top of that you have the cultural Christian types and the vague category of "spiritual but not religious" which can mean pretty much anything. 

I do remember seeing one survey that asked people coming out of church if they believed in God and something like 20% said no. Some were young folks taken to church by their parents and others were cultural Christian types. Yet all of those people still ticked the box saying they were Christian. It's pretty much at the point that when someone says "I'm a Christian" it tells you so little about their beliefs that you need to ask many follow up questions to understand anything about their views.

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, Wertbag said:

 

Another Christian told me "Only those who are "born again" are true Christians, all others have not received the holy spirit so are fake".  The obvious problem here is that "born again" is a self-applied label that has no physical meaning.  Someone who is "born again" is indistinguishable from someone who is not.

 

 

Yes, someone who is born again is physically indistinguishable from someone who is not, Wertbag.

 

But the bible never says that there will be any physical changes when a person is born again.  What it does say is that the invisible spiritual changes within them will cause a complete change in their character and their conduct.  A total rewriting of their ethical and moral standards.  These inner changes will then be apparent only in their behaviour.  So, by this biblical definition, if a person claims to be born again but their personality and their conduct has not changed then they are either mistaken or lying.

 

Galatians 5 : 16 - 25

 

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 

17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 

20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 

21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 

23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 

24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 

25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 

 

You'll note that what are being described here are behaviours.  There is nothing physically different between a person who is truly born again of the Spirit and someone who isn't.  The difference and what makes a true Christian (according to scripture) is what is inside a person.  That is what guides their behaviour.

 

Mark 7 : 14 - 23

 

14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 

15 Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them.

[16]  Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.” 

17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 

18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 

19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

20 He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 

21 For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, 

22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 

23 All these evils come from inside and defile a person.”

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

[Wertbag]

On 4/11/2023 at 10:11 PM, walterpthefirst said:

So, by this biblical definition, if a person claims to be born again but their personality and their conduct has not changed then they are either mistaken or lying.

True, and yet it leaves it impossible to tell who is or isn't magically touched in this way.  There is no test for someone who claims to be, and that claim doesn't make them immune to temptation or sin.  If they were already a good person, then any positive personality changes aren't going to be obvious.  What we are left with is an unfalsifiable claim that doesn't make any noticeable difference, but which people are willing to use as the prime label for what a Christian should be.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

At least with a Scotsman, we can measure a longitude and latitude and determine if he really is True, or if he's just a cheap American knock-off wearing a skirt and tossing logs.

[walterpthefirst]

9 hours ago, Wertbag said:

True, and yet it leaves it impossible to tell who is or isn't magically touched in this way.  There is no test for someone who claims to be, and that claim doesn't make them immune to temptation or sin.  If they were already a good person, then any positive personality changes aren't going to be obvious.  What we are left with is an unfalsifiable claim that doesn't make any noticeable difference, but which people are willing to use as the prime label for what a Christian should be.

 

Broadly speaking yes, Wertbag.

 

But what about this?  If a Christian claims to be born again as per scripture, then scripture itself becomes the test.  And the bible doesn't talk about the occasional temptation or the odd sin, here or there.  The bible acknowledges that even born again Christians will still sin from time to time.  But what scripture does say is that if someone continues to sin, meaning that they continually behave in a sinful way and show no sign of changing their ways.  Then, even though they may claim to be born again or may genuinely believe that they are saved, their continued sinning, shown in their behaviour, says otherwise.

 

So now I have to ask the question.  Do you know of anyone calling themselves a Christian who continually behaves in an un-Christian way, who has done so for years and who shows no sign of changing their sinful behaviour?  If so, then according to scripture, that person is NOT saved and NOT born again and will NOT see heaven.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

[Wertbag]

On 4/13/2023 at 10:43 PM, walterpthefirst said:

If so, then according to scripture, that person is NOT saved and NOT born again and will NOT see heaven.

Well, that gets down to which version of salvation they believe in.  If they believe in a faith only salvation message, then regardless of sinning they will still reach heaven due to their belief in Jesus.  However, if they are one of the types who believes in universal salvation, then usually the idea is that upon meeting God there will be no doubt, so everyone will believe, it will therefore only be those who know and still reject Him that would be cast away.  Such a person could therefore sin and still be saved.

Really it would only be those who believe in a works plus faith salvation position.  Those who actually think God will be a judge of each individual coming before Him, rather than a blanket acceptance on faith alone.  I have no idea on which versions of these ideas are most common.  As with most of Christianity there is no unity of thought, each group claiming to have the right answer while the other groups claim the first are wrong.

[walterpthefirst]

7 hours ago, Wertbag said:

Well, that gets down to which version of salvation they believe in.  If they believe in a faith only salvation message, then regardless of sinning they will still reach heaven due to their belief in Jesus.  However, if they are one of the types who believes in universal salvation, then usually the idea is that upon meeting God there will be no doubt, so everyone will believe, it will therefore only be those who know and still reject Him that would be cast away.  Such a person could therefore sin and still be saved.

Really it would only be those who believe in a works plus faith salvation position.  Those who actually think God will be a judge of each individual coming before Him, rather than a blanket acceptance on faith alone.  I have no idea on which versions of these ideas are most common.  As with most of Christianity there is no unity of thought, each group claiming to have the right answer while the other groups claim the first are wrong.

 

IWertbag,

 

What I'm proposing is not works plus salvation.  At least, not works that count towards the earning of salvation.  Not at all.  How a person behaves after they declare themselves to be saved is the indicator of the truth of their claim.  So that's not salvation by works.  

 

Anyway, we can argue this back and forth forever because, as you've correctly pointed out, there's so much leeway in the interpretation of scripture that its impossible to really know what it means.  So perhaps we'd better just be happy with that.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

[quantum]

You know, the one with all the well-meaning rules

that don't work out in real life. Uh...

Christianity.

 

Homer Simpson 

[RichDellaValle]

It will appear that I am preaching to the choir, but I wrote the information presented here to people who criticized and ostracized me for quitting the church. People who really think they are doing God's Will but perhaps only go to church for the uppityness, not to mention the music and companionship! I hoped to show them that they were living a lie since very few people live righteous lives according to their God's standards.

 

A Christian principle that directly conflicts with the concept of "free will" is a much-despised doctrine called "Predestination." This dogma, developed by John Calvin, holds that God selected his chosen people long before they were born. See Acts 2:23, John 1:12-13, Prov. 16:9, Acts 13:48, Rom 8:28-30, 2Thess 2:13, Eph 2:10, Eph 1:4-5, and Rev 13:8, to name just a few of over one-hundred such verses. However, most Christians reject this doctrine because they are convinced that Free Will rules the planet! According to S. Michael Houdmann of GotQuestions, "They (most Christians) despise the idea that their faith was predestined. They loathe the thought that God choosing them had anything to do with them coming to Christ for salvation. Simply put, they want to think they are entirely in control of their eternal destiny. They believed they received Christ as Savior by their own free will." A sanctimonious lot!

 

I don't think Houdmann is wrong because if you chose God of your own volition and continue to sin, do you think you are saved? Isn't that mocking God? 1John 3:9 states: "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." If God chooses you, it would be inevitable that 1 John 3:9 is a true statement without exception – you could not sin! You might ask, "What about 1John 1:9?" which is the Christian's justification (free pass) to sin. 1John 1:8-9 says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." This verse seems contradictory in that we can sin all we want as long as we confess! But it certainly is not because just three verses back, John says, "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness, we lie and do not the truth." That sounds pretty explicit! 

 

Conversely, 1John 3:9 and 1John 1:5 also seem to be contradictions of 1John 1:9, which is a huge problem! If God is perfect, we must recognize that he will not tolerate any acts of sin from the people he wants to associate with, and he gives his elect the ability to be sinless. 1John 5:18 states, "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin." Therefore, sinless perfection can ONLY be achieved by a gift (miracle) from God. God is not in the business of countless forgiveness! Any Christian minister worth his salt and guts will tell you that to repent is not merely an utterance of words but is preceded/accompanied by or associated with a feeling of guilt for sin, recognition, and acceptance of the sacrificial-saving grace of Jesus, a heartfelt emotional (or penitence: grief, groan) desire to change to a life devoted to God. Afterward, one needs to be born again, allowing the Spirit of God to make Spirit-led lifestyle changes, resulting in a complete absence of sin. If one repeats certain indiscretions knowing they are abhorrent to God, that person cannot be born again and is therefore unacceptable to him. Hebrews 10:26-31, Hebrews 10:14, Hebrews 3:14-15, Titus 3:3-5 and  Eph 1:4-5 prove my point. Still, ministers will never quote these verses in their sermons because they know they continue to sin, as do the people they preach, so they cleverly call upon the word "willingly" in total refutation of the above verses. I realized I was living a lie and remaining a Christian was an act of vanity, so I quit. A side note here. It was AFTER I quit that I really studied the entire Bible and realized, with clear eyes, it was ALL B.S.

 

Christianity is a religion of guilt built upon unachievable demands. Very few people live like saints, which is also God's will. Matthew 7:13-14 states, "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide, and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow, and the way is hard, leading to life, and those who find it are few." Few means hardly any or almost none! On the other hand, to my way of thinking, if you live by any version of the "Golden Rule," you will be doing a true God's will if one does exist. I heard a joke years ago by Thomas Ybarra: "A Christian is a man who feels repentance on Sunday for what he did on Saturday and is going to do on Monday."The crux of the matter boils down to this and is a quote from my mentor Dennis McKinsey, author of Biblical Errancy, Prometheus Books:

 

"In summary, Scripture clearly shows that Predestination is an integral part of biblical theology. Interestingly enough, according to the Bible, no Biblicist is a Christian because none abide in Christ. Since none abide in Christ, how anyone can be saved becomes a logical question. Why can't people abide in Christ? Because everyone commits anti-social behavior, or what Biblicists refer to as sin, and that excludes them summarily, then no one has ever been born of God since all Biblicists continue to sin, regardless. Until someone can demonstrate sinless perfection, abiding in Christ remains illusory."