How do I survive without Jesus?

[Abigail]

I've ended a twenty year relationship with God -- a relationship that meant everything to me. I ended it because the God I believed was ultimate Good proved to be evil. But I don't feel free. I feel empty and alone. Life is awful and I don't know how to survive it without a loving Father by my side. Besides that, I still believe in His existence, just not his goodness. So I'm still scared that I might be wrong -- that I'm mistaken and He might be all I used to believe after all. And whether He is the good God I used to believe in or the bad God I believe in now, I am scared of dying and going to hell. I'm scared. And I feel so lost. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Welcome, Abigail.  I am so glad you found our community.  Many of us have gone through the exact same experiences you are going through now.  You're not alone; and it is okay to feel lost, confused, even scared, right now.  Your entire worldview has been shattered and you're still reeling from the unexpected trauma.  You don't need to redefine your beliefs right away.  It's perfectly fine to just stare at the rubble of your old life for a while and figure out which pieces to pick back up when you're ready to start rebuilding.  Many of us have been there.  And we're here now, for you.

[TABA]

Hi Abigail,

 

I want to join my friend TheRedneckProfessor in welcoming you to our community!  You’ve come to the right place.  This community exists to help people like you to get through this process, toward a better life.  It has done this for many people over the past 20+ years, and I look forward to it continuing to do so.  
 

I mentioned the word “process”, because this is not a one-off event.  You don’t just wake up one morning, say “ I am no longer a Christian” and then sit back and enjoy the benefits.  Trust me, the benefits are there in abundance, especially for somebody who feels the way you do right now.  But it does take time, it takes gaining knowledge and it takes supportive people to be there with you along the way.  This place provides those things!

 

7 hours ago, Abigail said:

I ended it because the God I believed was ultimate Good proved to be evil.

I assume you believed in the Christian version of God, as depicted in the Old and New Testament.  That god is a complicated one, at times vicious jealous and murderous and at times loving and merciful.  And therein lies the problem for this god.  The difference between the Old and New Testament gods is so stark that for thousands of years people have questioned whether they are the same god.  In fact there are excellent reasons to believe that both are the products of the human imagination.  
 

I can also promise you there are also excellent reasons to believe that Hell does not exist, that it too developed in the minds of humans over the course of centuries. 
 

You CAN - in time - lose your fear, and you can - with support - make it to a better life without feeling the need for a father in Heaven.   Your own strength as a person - even if you don’t necessarily feel it at this moment - combined with the support of the people here, and others, can get you there.  I just ask that you stay engaged with us.  Ask questions, read around.  Absorb the feel

of this place, start slowly getting used to being outside of your former beliefs.  Have patience with yourself.  You can do this!  And we’re here to help, all along the way!
 

[pantheory]

15 hours ago, Abigail said:

I've ended a twenty year relationship with God -- a relationship that meant everything to me. I ended it because the God I believed was ultimate Good proved to be evil. But I don't feel free. I feel empty and alone. Life is awful and I don't know how to survive it without a loving Father by my side. Besides that, I still believe in His existence, just not his goodness. So I'm still scared that I might be wrong -- that I'm mistaken and He might be all I used to believe after all. And whether He is the good God I used to believe in or the bad God I believe in now, I am scared of dying and going to hell. I'm scared. And I feel so lost. 

 

Welcome to Ex-Ch Abigail, your very first posting, great. All of us here have different opinions. Some are questioning God, some are agnostics, and others like myself are atheists. As for me, God could never do anything bad because he is just an imaginary being like Zeus. Be afraid of nothing imaginary like God, angels, devils, etc. Hope you like talking with us and post from time to time. 

 

Once you've decided on a good course of life and morals to follow, simply do it. Never regret when you have done your best.

 

Cheers, and all the best, pantheory

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

On 6/5/2023 at 10:35 PM, Abigail said:

I've ended a twenty year relationship with God -- a relationship that meant everything to me. I ended it because the God I believed was ultimate Good proved to be evil. But I don't feel free. I feel empty and alone. Life is awful and I don't know how to survive it without a loving Father by my side. Besides that, I still believe in His existence, just not his goodness. So I'm still scared that I might be wrong -- that I'm mistaken and He might be all I used to believe after all. And whether He is the good God I used to believe in or the bad God I believe in now, I am scared of dying and going to hell. I'm scared. And I feel so lost. 

Abigail, 

 

Along with everyone else I would like to welcome you to ExChristian dot net. Most of us here understand what your feeling right now. One thing that is good to understand is that the Bible is a reflection of many ideological changes over the course of time. Even Hell itself wasn't originally believed to be what it is today. There is a book out by a biblical scholar (Bart Ehrman) "Heaven and Hell a history of the afterlife ". In this book he discusses how the beliefs in heaven and hell changed over time to what we see taught today. 

 

Like has already been said, there are stark contrasts between the old testament God and the New testament God. Again this is a result of changing ideologies. 

 

Try not to think about it as not knowing whether you can live without a holy father on your side, but that you have already lived your life without him. Everything you have made it through up until now, you have already made it through on your own. It was you that did it. Not God. You should be proud of yourself and take confidence that you have made it this far on your own. And can continue on your own. 

 

When you get to the point that this initial shock is over, it is important to educate yourself on the truth. I think we all probably thought at some point, "what if I'm wrong". I know I did. But through study in various areas pertaining to the bible I've been able to get past that and am fully confident that not only is the biblical God a myth but so is Heaven and Hell. 

 

Also just because the biblical God isn't real doesn't mean you can't believe in something. I'm Agnostic non-theist. I don't believe in any of the world religions Gods. But I do have my own ideals and thoughts about the possibility of something higher. I like to refer to it as "The Grand Architect". We have another member that believes in the theory of a conscious universe. Others have dabbled in Buddhism and found peace in that. This isn't the end, its only the beginning Abigail. And I hope for the best for you. Don't be afraid to ask questions, there are many members here that are willing to lend advice and knowledge to point you in the right direction. 

 

Best Regards,

Dark Bishop

[DanForsman]

Hi Abigail. I'm sorry you are feeling this fear and distress and are having to deal with so many unfamiliar ideas and unresolved feelings. It sounds like something specific happened in your life and your beliefs let you down. I'm guessing you believed in one of the Christian sects and if so you could look for a different Christian group that had the things you want and miss so much but without the belief in an actual hell. I'm a long term atheist but am pretty sure that there are many practicing Christians who don't believe in hell. Have you considered that it may have gotten added into Christianity at a later time rather than having been an integral part of Jesus' message.

"And so, Jesus stood in a very long line of serious thinkers who have refused to believe that a good God would torture his creatures for eternity. The idea of eternal hell was very much a late comer on the Christian scene, developed decades after Jesus’ death and honed to a fine pitch in the preaching of fire and brimstone that later followers sometimes attributed to Jesus himself. But the torments of hell were not preached by either Jesus or his original Jewish followers; they emerged among later gentile converts who did not hold to the Jewish notion of a future resurrection of the dead. These later Christians came out of Greek culture and its belief that souls were immortal and would survive death." By Bart Ehrman from this Time article that might give you some comfort to look at:

https://time.com/5822598/jesus-really-said-heaven-hell

Christians very much disagree on many points so maybe you could free yourself enough to look into other groups who don't find evidence that god would turn his back on 2/3rds of the humans he created. Considering that humans have such short lifespans could there be any justice in punishment lasting an infinite umpteen trillions of years for not correctly unraveling the puzzle of exactly who god is?

Hopefully you can find a way to allow the comfort and security you want without adding the fear and anxiety that doesn't necessarily have to come along with that. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feelings with us. Wishing you the best

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Excelent responses above!  You are at that scary stage, but I guarantee it will get better.  When you realize it was your belief  that pulled you through to this point, not an actual "father" out there, it will be the start of the self confidence you need to carry on.  I've been out 30 years now and feel more secure at 81 years of age, than at any other time in life.  

 

Find the "testimonial" section (forums) and start reading those.  Mine is "Personal story:  A GRADUAL AWAKENING" and has a section about finding meaning and purpose without believing in the Biblical God.  A paraphrase of Matthew 22:  vs 37 to 40 with one word changed is now where my faith lies.  "Love Good with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself".   When it comes to saving humankind, that is a valid and profound statement, found in the Bible (except for one word), attributed to Jesus who reportedly said it is the greatest commandment.  That you can hold onto as truth.

 

And as stated above, Hell was never mentioned until Christainity came along.  Why not??   As you start sorting things out I think you will find that the Bible is not the inerrant word of God, and humans added Hell to scare people into submission. 

 

On 6/5/2023 at 9:35 PM, Abigail said:

 

 I still believe in His existence, just not his goodness. 

 

You are not the only one.  I know of several people who believe the Old Testament God is not the real god.  And that the New Testament with Jesus teaching should have never been attached to the Old.    And that some scripture was altered to try and make old and new fit together.   And by the way, feel free to tell us what happened to shatter your faith.  We are an understanding group and several probably have had a similar experience.  HANG IN THERE!!

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Interesting.  Abigail visited again 4 hours ago, but did not reply to our replies.

 

I need to stop replying in the middle of the night when I'm about half asleep.  I misread part of what she was saying.  But perhaps what I said back to her will get her to thinking about other possibilities.

[Abigail]

Thank you all so much for your responses and encouragement. It - and other things - gave me a lot to think on, so I'm late in responding. But it's so good to know I'm not the only one in this position.  Thank you so much TheRedneckProfessor, TABA, pantheory, DarkBishop, DanForsman, and Weezer!!

I actually started this process a few years ago.  As well as other mental health issues, I have OCD, so when I first started doubting I got caught in a never ending cycle of asking the same questions over and over until it was destroying me.  It was actually my roommate at the time - a Christian - who first encouraged me to take a step away from the questions even if it meant walking away from my relationship with God.  I did so and because of how harmful the questioning was to me, as well as the trauma that had led up to that point, I pressed pause on the topic and the relationship for almost two years.

But now I'm in a place of such extreme anger at God and fear of hell that it's destroying my peace again and since other aspects of my life have stabilized (I have been unpacking other trauma and doing emdr with my long time counselor) I think I might be ready to tackle these questions again.

I've always believed that there is ultimate truth and I'm not sure if I'm ready to ditch that belief, so it's vital to me to know what that truth is. A need to know is just a big part of who I am, so just sitting with those questions for so long felt contrary to who I am and what I want.

I would like to believe that there is no such thing as hell, but I need to be certain to have peace about it.

I will be reading the book and the article by Bart Ehrman!

I've been talking to a couple friends and... I am super nervous about this as in the past even thinking about it had been very triggering... I'm thinking about starting a serious study of Christianity so I can start answering these questions that have torturing me, one way or the other.  If I did this, would some of you be willing to help me? I think I'll need a lot of people on this journey.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

50 minutes ago, Abigail said:

If I did this, would some of you be willing to help me? I think I'll need a lot of people on this journey.

Absolutely!  We are more than happy to help in any way we can.  Some of our members are quite scholarly when it comes to the origins of the bible, hell, and the christian religion. 

[DanForsman]

Good for you Abigail! Questioning is really the only way to figure out what you really believe. Conservative Christianity can make you feel like your reason can't be trusted but surely our ability to reason is a direct gift from god whereas the numerous often contradictory books supposedly sent to us by god are not clearly from god. If we give up on trusting our reason we become lost and susceptible to the manipulation of others. You have definitely come to the right place to share your journey and we're good with wherever your journey takes you meaning you don't need to be aiming at or become exchristian for us to have an interest in what you're going through. The many testimonials available on this site will potentially become welcome sources for you because you'll likely find that many were written by people who had questions very much like the questions you have and possibly all the ones you will have as you go through your process. I think you efforts will be rewarded and help you in your pursuit of inner peace.

[alreadyGone]

2 hours ago, Abigail said:

...
I would like to believe that there is no such thing as hell, but I need to be certain to have peace about it.
...

 

Would this be "proving a negative" ?

 

I hope you find peace.

[Abigail]

20 minutes ago, alreadyGone said:

 

Would this be "proving a negative" ?

 

I hope you find peace.

I suppose so? 

 

Thank you

[Abigail]

Thank you The RedneckProfessor and DanForsman. I greatly appreciate your support

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

4 hours ago, Abigail said:

If I did this, would some of you be willing to help me? I think I'll need a lot of people on this journey.

Absolutely, I will help in any way I can. Just let me know.

 

DB

[◊ Weezer ◊]

5 hours ago, Abigail said:

I would like to believe that there is no such thing as hell, but I need to be certain to have peace about it.

 

 

I can certainly understand that because I have been there.  But I finally had to accept that there are some things that cannot be known for certain.  That there is simply no "hard" evidence for some things, one way or another.  Hell, Heaven, God, etc.  But with enough time, using my logical mind, and searching for circumstantial evidence (and leaving my mind open to it) I eventually came to trust my own judgement and decided I was sure enough of there NOT being a Hell, that I was willing to bet my "soul" on Hell not existing.  

[Abigail]

Thank you DarkBishop!

 

 

1 hour ago, Weezer said:

 

I can certainly understand that because I have been there.  But I finally had to accept that there are some things that cannot be known for certain.  That there is simply no "hard" evidence for some things, one way or another.  Hell, Heaven, God, etc.  But with enough time, using my logical mind, and searching for circumstantial evidence (and leaving my mind open to it) I eventually came to trust my own judgement and decided I was sure enough of there NOT being a Hell, that I was willing to bet my "soul" on Hell not existing.  

Yeah that's what I'm worried about - that I won't find enough proof either way. Because that's potentially a big bet to make. 

[Mick_Revisited]

On 6/5/2023 at 10:35 PM, Abigail said:

I've ended a twenty year relationship with God -- a relationship that meant everything to me. I ended it because the God I believed was ultimate Good proved to be evil. But I don't feel free. I feel empty and alone. Life is awful and I don't know how to survive it without a loving Father by my side. Besides that, I still believe in His existence, just not his goodness. So I'm still scared that I might be wrong -- that I'm mistaken and He might be all I used to believe after all. And whether He is the good God I used to believe in or the bad God I believe in now, I am scared of dying and going to hell. I'm scared. And I feel so lost. 

 

Hi Abigail.  Everything you are feeling is very normal, especially with 20 years in the mind trap.  The fear goes away.  For me personally, I went through what you are going through.  But it does fade.  Eventually "fearing Jesus" became just as ridiculous as fearing the Wicked Witch of the East would have been.  Christianity in hind site at least for me is entirely ridiculous.  I was in the personal relationship with Jesus thing for about 17 years before finally bailing.  You will be great!

[◊ Weezer ◊]

21 hours ago, Abigail said:

 

Yeah that's what I'm worried about - that I won't find enough proof either way. Because that's potentially a big bet to make. 

 

Something to consider.  It is seen as a big bet to make because you you were mentally (psychologically) conditioned (programed) to think that way by your family and the society around you.  Do you realize that if you had been born in India to a Hindu family you would likely be thinking about the possibility of reincarnation instead of heaven and hell?  What you see as religious truth is conditioned/programmed into you by the society around you.  And no religion can be proven to be "the" truth.  Realizing this was a MAJOR factor in my de-conversion.  It took me from a several years period of what might be called liberal christianity, to agnosticism.  

[◊ Weezer ◊]

10 hours ago, Mick_Revisited said:

 

.  Christianity in hind site at least for me is entirely ridiculous. 

 

You are right.  About 90% of it is ridiculous.  I see the Abrahamic God concept throughout the Old Testament, and that of eternal heaven and hell as being ridicilous, but I see the teaching about loving and respecting humanity as a valid way of making this a better world.

[Mick_Revisited]

11 hours ago, Weezer said:

the teaching about loving and respecting humanity as a valid way of making this a better world.

 

I do not believe there is much of that in the Bible quite honestly.  An example of my reasoning, "Jesus" clearly is someone who as portrayed in the Bible warns of a "Lake of Fire" hell for non-believers and much weeping and gnashing of teeth.  There is nothing else such a being can say that can therefore be considered loving and respecting of Humanity.  He is NULLED out.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

1 hour ago, Mick_Revisited said:

 

  He is NULLED out.

 

You are assuming he actually said everything the bible says he said.  We don't know for sure he even existed, and if he did, we only have information about him that people passed down.  People who could have been biased and had there own points of view they wanted to get across, and actually lied about what he said and did.  He is accredited with the semon on the mount and saying the greatest commandment is to love god and love neighbor as self.  Loving neighbor as self is a valid social/psychological concept that promotes a feeling of belonging and being worthwhile which is needed for human wellbeing.  The story of the good samaritan and taking care of widows and orphans are humanitarian lessons in promoting the wellbeing of needy people.  You have to wade through a lot of crap to find them, but there are some valid truths in the bible. 

[Mick_Revisited]

18 hours ago, Weezer said:

You are assuming he actually said everything the bible says he said.  We don't know for sure he even existed, and if he did, we only have information about him that people passed down.  People who could have been biased and had there own points of view they wanted to get across, and actually lied about what he said and did.  He is accredited with the semon on the mount and saying the greatest commandment is to love god and love neighbor as self.  Loving neighbor as self is a valid social/psychological concept that promotes a feeling of belonging and being worthwhile which is needed for human wellbeing.  The story of the good samaritan and taking care of widows and orphans are humanitarian lessons in promoting the wellbeing of needy people.  You have to wade through a lot of crap to find them, but there are some valid truths in the bible. 

 

No, I'm not.  I don't believe anything credited to him in the Bible was ever spoken by a real historical person.  And, the promoting of the wellbeing of needy people, combined with the murdering of innocents don't conflate.  The good things you speak of are NULLED out.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Guys, this is Abigail's thread and we need to be respectful of it.  We can debate what jesus did or didn't say in the Lion's Den forum.  Thanks.  Have a good day.