Just Some Things I Find Confusing...

[Casualfanboy16]

I have a few questions that probably already have been answered here by people who are way smarter and way more knowledgeable of the Bible than me. Admittedly, it's been a while since I picked one up and read it cover to cover and my memory isn't the best, but I'm just gonna lay out a few things that didn't make sense to me (that I can remember). Feel free to correct me if I get Biblical stuff wrong or mixed up.

 

What the hell are we being punished for?

I never understood as to why atheists and people of other beliefs outside of Christianity are going to suffer an enternal period of excruciating torment, along with those who don't believe also? If someone is born into a different religion (like Islam is one such example) then they're going to believe that their religion is the right one unless they convert to Christianity at some point in their lives. But what if they don't? What if they go their whole lives thinking that the religion they believe in is the right one? What happens when they die and, hypothetically, go to the Christian Hell because they believed in the wrong god?? A lot of religions claim to be the "right" one or whatever, but if Christianity is true, (and that's a big if because of all the crazy of the Bible) then Muslims are going to suffer eternal punishment and for what? For not believing in the right god?? 

 

Not to mention atheists and such who don't believe. Why does god feel the need to punish them? Why reward people for putting faith (or blind devotion too) in you instead of people who dare question you? Why not welcome those people into the Pearly Gates? They may not believe in you, but why not reward people who dare question you and want to seek more knowledge instead of sending them to eternal hellfire? This begs my next question...

 

Do we even have a choice in all of this?

Another thing that has always confused me is that when Christians say like that we have a choice or not to accept Jesus and Heaven and all this other stuff, but do we really? If we factor in predestination, what choice do those who don't believe in Christianity really have? The Lord knows the plans he has for us from even before we were born (and I'm assuming before the inception of the universe). So is "free will" not really free? An illusion? This is another thing that literally paralyzed me with fear when I began undoing the damage Christian doctrine has done to me. The idea that we have free will seems absurd if we take into account predestination. What free will is there? If anything, we seem to be just like pawns in a 5D game of chess between "good" and "evil" being moved along just as God intended. I used to get the feeling like I was a wooden marionette being forced to participate in this fucked up Divine stage play, and this pretty much sums up why. Anyway, on to the next question?

 

Why do people that do wrong and commit horrible atrocities (i.e. rapists, murderers, pedophiles, genocidal maniacs, etc) get to go to Heaven if they do a genuine repentance for their sins, but an atheist or other person of a different faith that isn't Christianity who does good in this world, treat people with kindness and love and try to make the world a better place and all that suffer eternal torment?

 

From my understanding, getting into Heaven isn't a good works based endeavor. But why let people off the hook for doing such violent and abhorrent things if they repent, even if it's last minute death bed repentance type stuff? There are people in this world that just be evil to be evil, I suppose. However, why would you grant them eternal salvation even if they come to Christ? Coming to Christ won't reverse all the damage they've done to others. Also, an atheist or whoever that does good in this world has to suffer eternally when they did the best they could to make the world better? What's the point of good, kind, loving people going to Hell if they don't accept Jesus as their personal lord and savior. If they lived a decent life and did good, why don't they deserve a place in Heaven? Maybe I have a basic understanding of this last question, but I'm still confused.

 

Anyway, this is all the ones I can think of at the moment. If anyone has answers to these questions I'd greatly appreciate them! Again, I appreciate everyone here! Y'all are amazing!

[pantheory]

2 hours ago, Casualfanboy16 said:

I have a few questions that probably already have been answered here by people who are way smarter and way more knowledgeable of the Bible than me. Admittedly, it's been a while since I picked one up and read it cover to cover and my memory isn't the best, but I'm just gonna lay out a few things that didn't make sense to me (that I can remember). Feel free to correct me if I get Biblical stuff wrong or mixed up.

 

What the hell are we being punished for?

I never understood as to why atheists and people of other beliefs outside of Christianity are going to suffer an enternal period of excruciating torment, along with those who don't believe also? If someone is born into a different religion (like Islam is one such example) then they're going to believe that their religion is the right one unless they convert to Christianity at some point in their lives. But what if they don't? What if they go their whole lives thinking that the religion they believe in is the right one? What happens when they die and, hypothetically, go to the Christian Hell because they believed in the wrong god?? A lot of religions claim to be the "right" one or whatever, but if Christianity is true, (and that's a big if because of all the crazy of the Bible) then Muslims are going to suffer eternal punishment and for what? For not believing in the right god?? 

 

Not to mention atheists and such who don't believe. Why does god feel the need to punish them? Why reward people for putting faith (or blind devotion too) in you instead of people who dare question you? Why not welcome those people into the Pearly Gates? They may not believe in you, but why not reward people who dare question you and want to seek more knowledge instead of sending them to eternal hellfire? This begs my next question...

 

Do we even have a choice in all of this?

Another thing that has always confused me is that when Christians say like that we have a choice or not to accept Jesus and Heaven and all this other stuff, but do we really? If we factor in predestination, what choice do those who don't believe in Christianity really have? The Lord knows the plans he has for us from even before we were born (and I'm assuming before the inception of the universe). So is "free will" not really free? An illusion? This is another thing that literally paralyzed me with fear when I began undoing the damage Christian doctrine has done to me. The idea that we have free will seems absurd if we take into account predestination. What free will is there? If anything, we seem to be just like pawns in a 5D game of chess between "good" and "evil" being moved along just as God intended. I used to get the feeling like I was a wooden marionette being forced to participate in this fucked up Divine stage play, and this pretty much sums up why. Anyway, on to the next question?

 

Why do people that do wrong and commit horrible atrocities (i.e. rapists, murderers, pedophiles, genocidal maniacs, etc) get to go to Heaven if they do a genuine repentance for their sins, but an atheist or other person of a different faith that isn't Christianity who does good in this world, treat people with kindness and love and try to make the world a better place and all that suffer eternal torment?

 

From my understanding, getting into Heaven isn't a good works based endeavor. But why let people off the hook for doing such violent and abhorrent things if they repent, even if it's last minute death bed repentance type stuff? There are people in this world that just be evil to be evil, I suppose. However, why would you grant them eternal salvation even if they come to Christ? Coming to Christ won't reverse all the damage they've done to others. Also, an atheist or whoever that does good in this world has to suffer eternally when they did the best they could to make the world better? What's the point of good, kind, loving people going to Hell if they don't accept Jesus as their personal lord and savior. If they lived a decent life and did good, why don't they deserve a place in Heaven? Maybe I have a basic understanding of this last question, but I'm still confused.

 

Anyway, this is all the ones I can think of at the moment. If anyone has answers to these questions I'd greatly appreciate them! Again, I appreciate everyone here! Y'all are amazing!

 

Not only some things that are confusing, but very ridiculous stories and ideas IMO: the Bible.

 

The very childish, almost moronic stories in the Book of Genesis, one of which is that God condemned humanity because Adam and Eve disobeyed him by eating an apple from the tree of knowledge. This was called  the “original sin.” It would be very stupid to believe this, or any such a childish stories IMO.

Then what follows is that God killed everyone on Earth because none followed God’s commandments excepting for Noah and his family – and he also saved the animals on Earth -- which was another stupid, infantile story for the weak minded. Then that plan didn’t work very well so God adopted a chosen people, many of which were enslaved in Egypt who, according to the Bible, were following his word. God helped them out of slavery through their leader called Moses.  Since these people did follow God’s plan, he favored them as a race of people, the Jews. To clarify his word, God gave Moses 10 commandments which were his most important rules to follow.

Eventually with God’s help, his chosen people started establishing their own homeland through warfare with God’s help. But in time there were two small cities in the settlement areas that especially pissed God off by not following his commandments which he laid out to Moses. So God killed everyone in those small Jewish cities, Sodom and Gomorra, excepting for a chosen family where Lot was their father.

In time the areas of the Jews grew comparatively large in population with great leaders – who were not always in God’s favor. In time the Jews were concurred by the Persians and others and many fled to Mesopotamia several hundred miles away. In time through warfare according to the Bible,  the king of Persia issued a proclamation granting freedom to some subjugated nations, so up to  50,000 Judeans, led by Zerubabel, helped by God , left Mesopotamian areas and returned to Judah to rebuild the Temple of Jerusalem to honor God again.

To skip some time, these Jewish areas were eventually conquered again by the Romans. These Jewish areas had been concurred by many nations and God felt that "his chosen people" were falling away from his rules and commandments. He decided to send his son Jesus to save these Jews and give a chance to the rest of humanity. After a while of “great teachings,” Jesus was supposed to die to save mankind from “original sin,” by that time which meant the sins of humanity as a whole.

So Jesus died as a token of God’s love, where God was also willing to sacrifice to save his creations, the Jews and even more of humanity.

Just a collection of BS and fabled children’s stories we now call the Christian Bible. And all religions of the world are equally as stupid. Most of these stories of religion are many thousands of years old, written at times when mankind had little evidence to contradict these fables. 

Others know much more than I do about the Bible– but original sin is one of the stupidest stories I've ever heard of coming out of religion, IMHO.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Casualfanboy16]

1 hour ago, pantheory said:

The very childish, almost moronic stories in the Book of Genesis, one of which is that God condemned humanity because Adam and Eve disobeyed him by eating an apple from the tree of knowledge. This was called  the “original sin.” It would be very stupid to believe this, or any such a childish stories IMO.

Oh God. Not original sin. I mean the more I think about Genesis, it just raises more questions than answers. Like, the whole thing sounds like a bad acid trip, but applying any amount of logic just adds to the confusion. Why punish Adam and Eve anyway? The tree is literally called The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. I mean, God told them not to do it, but it's not like they had the discernment to realize what they were doing is wrong because did they not know good or evil? Like if you tell a child (or in Adam and Eve's case, someone who has the mental capacity of a child) not to do something, chances are they're gonna do it. Like touching a hot stove for the first time and they don't realize it's not safe to do so until they touch it. They didn't know beforehand what death or pain was, nor good and evil they just kinda hung around there and vibed with all the other animals in kumbaya or whatever. Also, the fact that they got tempted by a talking serpent?? Did all animals talk back then?? Is that the reason they were dumb enough to even fall for it in the first place? It'd be even crazier if just the snake was the one doing the talking. Why would you trust it?? Did they just not go "uhm, stranger danger" no alarm bells going off? Nothing? The concept of sin came about is so fucking stupid. Sure, Satan himself used to be an angel, but it's not like god gave them complete free will because predestination and all that. Like, where does sin actually come from? You can say Satan or whatever, but I thought Satan was thrown out of Heaven long before the Garden of Eden became a thing, or am I misremembering order of events? Like there's that whole verse where God says He created evil (although some argue it translates to calamity instead. Doesn't make it better for me, but eh whatever). If God is good and just and whatever, why make any calamity at all? My brain hurts like comprehending anything like I don't know how people believe or have any faith at all because the Genesis creation myth just brings so many unanswered questions that it's impossible to take the rest of it seriously.

 

1 hour ago, pantheory said:

Then what follows is that God killed everyone on Earth because none followed God’s commandments excepting for Noah and his family – and he also saved the animals on Earth -- which was another stupid, infantile story for the weak minded.

 

This is another problem I have. Noah's Ark. Looking back, it weirds me out that the story where God genocides the entire planet in an act that makes various genocides throughout human history look like nothing is often portrayed as a cutesy children's story. There's also the laundry list of questions that come about because of that: Why did God feel the need to flood the entire world? What purpose does that serve? Even if it was because of mankind's sin, committing worldwide genocide seems a bit overdramatic, wouldn't you say? Also, how is two of every animal going to fix shit? Especially since predator and prey were probably on there too. Wouldn't they have mauled each other to death or tried to hurt Noah and the others, or did God pacify them? Did the water-dwelling animals just continue on as normal? What about freshwater and saltwater animals' ecosystems mixing? How would they live? Again, none of this makes logical sense to me. How do people believe this? Don't even get me started on the rainbow after lmao. He killed almost everyone on the planet and use a rainbow as a symbol not to do it again? Why would he promise not to flood the earth again? It's not like he felt bad about it since he went ahead and killed everyone anyway beforehand. Like, I really want to be polite about other's beliefs but my god if I comitted genocide of that magnitude I would be a criminal. What makes God killing people okay? Sure, everyone is born under sin and the wages of sin is death, but idk genocide really shouldn't be the answer??? I'm thinking too heavily about this I'll just stop typing I feel like if I dwell on this too much my brain will break.

[pantheory]

yeah, it's all just silly stories, nothing to consider as valid. Only as possibly interesting child-like stories for some to have some interest in after

realizing that it is all pure BS.

[Casualfanboy16]

5 minutes ago, pantheory said:

yeah, it's all just silly stories. Nothing to consider as valid. Only as possibly interesting child-like stories for some to have some interest in after

realizing that it is all pure BS.

My problem is people genuinely believe this is the divine word of God. Sure, it was passed down and written over a long period of time by multiple people, and as imperfect humans, we can totally be trusted not to distort god's holy, unchanging word. Not to mention the Tower of Babel and switching up languages. Like language evolves and changes, God's word (supposedly) doesn't. That's a recipe for disaster. Words across languages don't always get translated properly, some words don't even exist in other languages. We have multiple versions of God's perfect holy book, which doesn't make sense because God's word is unchanging and supposedly perfect, why make multiple versions to fix or change the meaning of words (refer to my earlier example of Isaiah 45:7, which changes "evil" to "calamity" in some versions). It's just so weird to me people stick to this out of faith. I hope I'm not implying that Christians or others who follow religion are stupid or crazy or anything like that. I'm just confused as to why they follow it with its many holes and unanswered things that have yet to satisfy my skeptical mind.

[TABA]

Well @Casualfanboy16, it’s clear from this last post that you can clearly see some of the many reasons why the basics of Christian dogma are unsound.  It’s good that you have this level of understanding because it reinforces your deconversion and places it on solid ground.  People deconvert for different reasons, including their sexuality and Christian teachings regarding it.  That’s OK, but it’s best to have a good understanding of why it all doesn’t add up.  You’re well on the way to that!  Stick around and you’ll learn even more!

[Casualfanboy16]

9 minutes ago, TABA said:

Well @Casualfanboy16, it’s clear from this last post that you can clearly see some the many reasons why the basics of Christian dogma are unsound.  It’s good that you have this level of understanding because it reinforces your deconversion and places it on solid ground.  People deconvert for different reasons, including their sexuality and Christian teachings regarding it.  That’s OK, but it’s best to have a good understanding of why it all doesn’t add up.  You’re well on the way to that!  Stick around and you’ll learn even more!

Yeah I'm really excited to learn more!! I may not be as well-versed in the Bible as others here; and I do plan on reading or listening to it to delve into it more to gain a better understanding of it. (Not right now though because I already spent enough of my teenage years flipping through it like I had gone mad trying to find any verse that would validate my sexuality even though I knew it was pointless deep down. The Bible is kind of a source of trauma for me).

[◊ Weezer ◊]

1 hour ago, Casualfanboy16 said:

 

I hope I'm not implying that Christians or others who follow religion are stupid or crazy or anything like that. I'm just confused as to why they follow it with its many holes and unanswered things that have yet to satisfy my skeptical mind.

 

  One of the reasons you should go to college and study the psychological conditioning (programming) of the human mind. 

 

If you had been born in India, you might be asking the same question about why people follow the Hindu religion.  

 

In plain, simple terms, it is societal brain washing.  The ideology (whichever one it is) has gone on so many centuries that people honestly believe it to be true.  And the human ego does not like to admit it might be wrong.  And the conditioning for some also says that you will be punished if you question.  POWERFUL STUFF!

[Casualfanboy16]

17 minutes ago, Weezer said:

And the conditioning for some also says that you will be punished if you question.  POWERFUL STUFF!

 

Honestly though, it really is. While some people say they find peace in religion, (especially Christianity because that's what I'm most familiar with) I don't know how anyone could do that with the threat of eternal damnation hanging over you every second of your life. What justifies eternal punishment for a finite crime? Likewise, what justifies eternal life for finite servitude in the Lord and belief in Jesus as your personal Lord and Saviour. Why do we deserve to be subject to any of that? I know Christians who've said we don't deserve this wonderful gift too, but honestly why deserve either? Eternity in either context sounds horrible. I consider myself agnostic, mostly because I'm not certain of what happens after death. I don't believe in Heaven or Hell, but the fear is still present. It's so odd. I need to deal with this uncertainty somehow.

[Wertbag]

It's very hard to answer any of these questions because of the lack of unity within Christianity.  There are groups who believe in salvation via faith alone (which leads to the horrific problems of evil people getting to heaven while good people go to hell), there are others who say it is faith plus works, and still others who believe in universal salvation.  There are some who believe hell is separation from God, others that it is annihilation and still others who hold to the classic view of a place of fire and torment.

There is almost no subject which Christians can agree on.  No agreement on which bible, which translation or how it should be interpreted.  

Any answer given to your perfectly valid questions will have to be coached in terms of "most Christians" or "many of them believe...".  The range of beliefs is so wide, that the term Christian really doesn't tell you much about what that person believes.

[TABA]

22 minutes ago, Casualfanboy16 said:

I don't believe in Heaven or Hell, but the fear is still present. It's so odd.

 

It may be seem odd, but it's very common.  You can be convinced Hell doesn't exist, and still have that lingering fear.  So many here can testify to that.  But the fear gets less in time.  Sometimes that's just what it takes: the passage of time.  I think being a member of a community like this one helps too, for many people.

 

A book we recommend over and over again is Bart Ehrman's "Heaven and Hell".  He does a great job showing how the concepts of Hell and Satan evolved over several centuries.  When you see that, it's the beginning of the end of fear of hell.

 

You can probably find the book at a public library if you don't have the funds to buy a copy.  Meanwhile, here's an idea of what it's all about...

 

 

[Casualfanboy16]

5 minutes ago, TABA said:

 

It may be seem odd, but it's very common.  You can be convinced Hell doesn't exist, and still have that lingering fear.  So many here can testify to that.  But the fear gets less in time.  Sometimes that's just what it takes: the passage of time.  I think being a member of a community like this one helps too, for many people.

 

A book we recommend over and over again is Bart Ehrman's "Heaven and Hell".  He does a great job showing how the concepts of Hell and Satan evolved over several centuries.  When you see that, it's the beginning of the end of fear of hell.

 

You can probably find the book at a public library if you don't have the funds to buy a copy.  Meanwhile, here's an idea of what it's all about...

 

 

I'll have to check this book out. I don't think I can buy it right now, but I'll watch the video at some point.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

1 hour ago, Casualfanboy16 said:

 

Eternity in either context sounds horrible. 

 

I chuckle at that.  The thought has crossed my mind that there are some relatives I would NOT want to spend eternity with, in heaven or hell.  And what the heck could you do for eternity in heaven that wouldn't eventually get boring?  Walking on streets of gold??  WOW!  Exciting!!  

 

1 hour ago, Casualfanboy16 said:

 

I consider myself agnostic, mostly because I'm not certain of what happens after death. 

 

That is a logical conclusion since we can't prove anything for sure about God, afterlife, etc.   But with your family at this time it might be best to not give them a title of agnostic or atheist.  Those are likely equated with satan in their way of thinking.  Do you need to tack a label on yourself?  Right now you seem to be an unbeliever who is searching. 

[Casualfanboy16]

30 minutes ago, Weezer said:

I chuckle at that.  The thought has crossed my mind that there are some relatives I would NOT want to spend eternity with, in heaven or hell.  And what the heck could you do for eternity in heaven that wouldn't eventually get boring?  Walking on streets of gold??  WOW!  Exciting!!  

Honestly though. How could Heaven not get boring? What would God do to make it not boring? Would he remove our ability to get bored? It doesn't make sense.

 

I once heard the pastor of the church I used to attend describe Heaven like this: "So you know how little kids can do the something fun and exciting over and over and not get tired of doing it? It would be something like that." Not sure what to with that information. Still doesn't sound like a good time to me, but that's just my opinion. 

 

44 minutes ago, Weezer said:

That is a logical conclusion since we can't prove anything for sure about God, afterlife, etc.   But with your family at this time it might be best to not give them a title of agnostic or atheist.  Those are likely equated with satan in their way of thinking.  Do you need to tack a label on yourself?  Right now you seem to be an unbeliever who is searching. 

Yeah maybe I shouldn't be so quick to put a label on myself. Still though, agnostic at least seems right to me. Probably shouldn't worry about it yet though. I just really know how to answer the whole "does God exist?" stuff with the intellectually honest answer of: "I have no fucking idea."

 

 

 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

2 hours ago, Casualfanboy16 said:

 

: "I have no fucking idea."

 

Depending on who you are talking to, you might want to leave the F word out. 

[Casualfanboy16]

2 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Depending on who you are talking to, you might want to leave the F word out. 

Yeah lol, you're right. 

[pantheory]

On 7/10/2023 at 12:20 PM, Casualfanboy16 said:

My problem is people genuinely believe this is the divine word of God. Sure, it was passed down and written over a long period of time by multiple people, and as imperfect humans, we can totally be trusted not to distort god's holy, unchanging word. Not to mention the Tower of Babel and switching up languages. Like language evolves and changes, God's word (supposedly) doesn't. That's a recipe for disaster. Words across languages don't always get translated properly, some words don't even exist in other languages. We have multiple versions of God's perfect holy book, which doesn't make sense because God's word is unchanging and supposedly perfect, why make multiple versions to fix or change the meaning of words (refer to my earlier example of Isaiah 45:7, which changes "evil" to "calamity" in some versions). It's just so weird to me people stick to this out of faith. I hope I'm not implying that Christians or others who follow religion are stupid or crazy or anything like that. I'm just confused as to why they follow it with its many holes and unanswered things that have yet to satisfy my skeptical mind.

 

Yes, but these are religious folk who have never spent the time to consider that religion could be wrong. There is a lot of science information out there about evolution etc. Of course little of the Bible has any factual basis, and by some serious studying nearly all could understand that they might be wrong. Concentrate on your own life but realize most of these people will never realize how moronic all religions really are. Obviously their faith can be a good thing, but faith in something that you have never considered the possibility of being wrong, if realized, can break a believer from believing in anything else.

 

cheers