One Of My Main Reasons For Disbelieving

[ricky18]

I think one of my main reasons for disbelieving in God is because as a young Christian wanting to give my all to God as all Christians do I pleaded with God to give me faith (after I started doubting) beyond understand realizing that I cannot understand the things of God so I had to have faith that surpasses all understanding. All the nights I prayed for God to give me faith. He never gave me it. I was willing to give up everything for Him even if it meant not marrying a wife, I was on my way to becoming a preacher or something. So I say to myself now, If God is the Almighty God then why didn’t he give me that faith? Why didn’t he heal me? My doubt was the only thing standing in my way. In my “Christian environment” I was spending more time with Him and His scriptures then almost all the Christians I knew yet my life was destroyed the most.

 

Another that always bothered me is how people can block the cruel sense of eternal damnation out of their minds. No living being created by God deserves a punishment like that. Christians always try to explain it by saying that it’s because God is holy an cannot tolerate sin that he punishes us like that.even so No living creature deserves that punishment. It’s just too unbearable.

[Ouroboros]

I just had a little discussion last week with a Christian on this board about the very same issue. She claimed I was never a true Christian, and I tried to make her explain to me how I could spend 30 years praying and thinking that I'm a believer (believing that I'm believing), and God never saw that as a problem and gave me more faith when it started to faulter. She of course started to blame me that I had asked God for things that wasn't his will. But the Bible says it is God's will for everyone to be save and have faith, so that argument doesn't hold water. I never really got a good explanation, but she managed to contradict herself and scramble her bag of theology several times.

 

Talking to a Christian about this problem of loosing faith, you have to expect to get answers that reminds me of the 8-Ball toy, you shake it and get a random answer, and shake it again and get another random and conflicting answer.

[Guest ReformedSaint]

I think one of my main reasons for disbelieving in God is because as a young Christian wanting to give my all to God as all Christians do I pleaded with God to give me faith (after I started doubting) beyond understand realizing that I cannot understand the things of God so I had to have faith that surpasses all understanding. All the nights I prayed for God to give me faith. He never gave me it. I was willing to give up everything for Him even if it meant not marrying a wife, I was on my way to becoming a preacher or something. So I say to myself now, If God is the Almighty God then why didn’t he give me that faith? Why didn’t he heal me? My doubt was the only thing standing in my way. In my “Christian environment” I was spending more time with Him and His scriptures then almost all the Christians I knew yet my life was destroyed the most.

 

Another that always bothered me is how people can block the cruel sense of eternal damnation out of their minds. No living being created by God deserves a punishment like that. Christians always try to explain it by saying that it’s because God is holy an cannot tolerate sin that he punishes us like that.even so No living creature deserves that punishment. It’s just too unbearable.

 

Hi Ricky - don't give up on yourself or your faith. Just give up on the church and throw away EVERY doctrine your pastors, parents and well-meaning christians have taught you. Seek the God in the Bible.

 

Yes, you do need to have a faith that surpasses all understanding - your understanding - your physical understanding. Everything that Jesus said was said in spirit. Carnal, flesh, physical understanding profits nothing and will not give you peace of understanding.

 

Read Matt 13. Notice what Jesus says about speaking in parables so people would NOT understand Him and have to heal him.

 

You cannot understand or worship God in literal, physical terms - it is impossible.

 

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

 

Whatever you read in red letters, you need to stop looking at it as physical and come to understand it as spiritual. The spiritual meaning of everything Jesus says can be found in types adn shadows in the Old Testament. The lake of fire....? God's WORD is a consuming fire. JEsus came to save the WORLD form sin (isn't unbelief a sin?)

 

AND, rest your weary heart - there is no eternal torment. God will reconcile ALL His creation to Him according to the Bible. First of all, the KJV translated the word EON and EONIAN (definite beginning and ending) to ETERNAL , FOREVER, FOREVER and EVER...

 

Go to www.bibletruths.com and read the Lake of Fire series adn let me know

 

. Did you know that when Jesus walked the earth that He did not convert one single person? The people laying palms at His feet during the triumphial entry

[JeffXL]

Another that always bothered me is how people can block the cruel sense of eternal damnation out of their minds. No living being created by God deserves a punishment like that. Christians always try to explain it by saying that it’s because God is holy an cannot tolerate sin that he punishes us like that.even so No living creature deserves that punishment. It’s just too unbearable.

 

This may be why Christians can hate others so readily-- they really love the spiteful, bloodthirsty, pain-loving monster that the god of the Bible is. They also leave out that Hell is a much later invention. Looks like gawd was too stupid and clumsy to remember to put it in the O.T.!

 

"ReformedSaint"-- look like you use the KJV mistranslation. Is the the One And Only True version o' th' Babble?

[Antlerman]

Hi Ricky - don't give up on yourself or your faith. Just give up on the church and throw away EVERY doctrine your pastors, parents and well-meaning christians have taught you. Seek the God in the Bible.

 

Yes, you do need to have a faith that surpasses all understanding - your understanding - your physical understanding. Everything that Jesus said was said in spirit. Carnal, flesh, physical understanding profits nothing and will not give you peace of understanding.

I'm curious for you to share a couple thoughts from what I highlighted above. Firstly, if you actually do as you suggest and disregard every doctrine pastors, etc have taught you and seek God directly from the Bible, I would have to disagree that this is possible at all. As an experiment, I'd like to see someone hand the Bible to someone who has never heard anything from anywhere about the Bible and its stories, and have them read it in total isolation. My bet is it what they would get from it likely not look anything like what you, or any other Christian is currently believing. So the point is everyone is influenced by what we have picked up about these notions from our cultural. It is not possible to approach the Bible without these influences.

 

Secondly, are you suggesting that the "carnal, flesh, physical understanding" is our rational minds? Do you believe that in order to have a spiritual experience through the Bible stories, that you must lay waste to your rational mind in order to have peace? If so, might I suggest that as a human being we cannot divorce ourselves from our rational minds and be able to experience any sort of peace? To me, if there are spiritual truths to be experienced, they must address us as a whole human being, and not just half a one. I object to promoting severing ourselves from our rational minds on the basis of seeing all too many people disregard rational thought in favor of protecting some sort of belief system, saying such things as dinosaurs bones are a devils deception to test our faith; the earth is only 6,000 years old; etc, etc. I can't possibly see how someone can have peace inside of any kind when they are denying themselves the reality of their own minds.

[Kuroikaze]

 

 

Whatever you read in red letters, you need to stop looking at it as physical and come to understand it as spiritual. The spiritual meaning of everything Jesus says can be found in types adn shadows in the Old Testament. The lake of fire....? God's WORD is a consuming fire. JEsus came to save the WORLD form sin (isn't unbelief a sin?)

 

 

 

Why is unbelief a sin? even if there is a god, who is harmed by me not believing in him?

[Guest ReformedSaint]

Hi Ricky - don't give up on yourself or your faith. Just give up on the church and throw away EVERY doctrine your pastors, parents and well-meaning christians have taught you. Seek the God in the Bible.

 

Yes, you do need to have a faith that surpasses all understanding - your understanding - your physical understanding. Everything that Jesus said was said in spirit. Carnal, flesh, physical understanding profits nothing and will not give you peace of understanding.

I'm curious for you to share a couple thoughts from what I highlighted above. Firstly, if you actually do as you suggest and disregard every doctrine pastors, etc have taught you and seek God directly from the Bible, I would have to disagree that this is possible at all. As an experiment, I'd like to see someone hand the Bible to someone who has never heard anything from anywhere about the Bible and its stories, and have them read it in total isolation. My bet is it what they would get from it likely not look anything like what you, or any other Christian is currently believing. So the point is everyone is influenced by what we have picked up about these notions from our cultural. It is not possible to approach the Bible without these influences.

 

Secondly, are you suggesting that the "carnal, flesh, physical understanding" is our rational minds? Do you believe that in order to have a spiritual experience through the Bible stories, that you must lay waste to your rational mind in order to have peace? If so, might I suggest that as a human being we cannot divorce ourselves from our rational minds and be able to experience any sort of peace? To me, if there are spiritual truths to be experienced, they must address us as a whole human being, and not just half a one. I object to promoting severing ourselves from our rational minds on the basis of seeing all too many people disregard rational thought in favor of protecting some sort of belief system, saying such things as dinosaurs bones are a devils deception to test our faith; the earth is only 6,000 years old; etc, etc. I can't possibly see how someone can have peace inside of any kind when they are denying themselves the reality of their own minds.

 

 

I'd love to answer to your reply...

 

First, regarding common doctrine in the church. I can state with scriptural evidence that not one doctrine the church holds dearly and some claim is essential to avoid hellfire and enter heaven is just dead wrong. I'd like to refer you to the Lake of Fire series at bibletruths.com for a very in-depth and affirming expose on the church ALL based on what is in the Bible - not opinion. But if you would rather not read this just tell me one thing you think the church has right and I'll respond because they have nothing right about Christ, his doctrines, salvation, the rapture, eternal hell, tithing, Revelations, immortal soul and prophesy, the Kingdom of God, baptism...not one thing right! Mind you, I'm not dodging this and will wait for your question - there is just so much to undo I don't know where to begin.

 

BUT - this all said, the church is necessary to bring us into the truth of Jesus Christ. God laughs at the worlds wisdom and works through the foolishness of preaching.

 

Now, regarding the spiritual/physical. Jesus says here in John...

 

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

 

Paul says here:

 

Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

 

There are dozens of other verses I can share that all point to spiritual understanding and the folly of man's wisdom, yet this one ties things together...

 

Luk 24:44-45 KJVR And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. (45) Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the Scriptures,

 

Here Jesus is talking to his disciples - men and women who have been with Him for 3 1/2 years and seen him do many miracles and healing and were convinced He was their Messiah - that is until he was crucified adn they all abondoned Him. But nonetheless, this comes after He is risen and it wasn't until this point that He opened their understanding. He did this by telling them that the words He spoke referred to the Old Testament.

 

Now, you don't have to give up on reason and logic - you just need to apply it differently and refer to the Old Testament to "understand" what Jesus is saying in the New Testament. First let me begin that Jesus took the law of the flesh - the Old Testament Law - and made it a law of the spirit. For example, in Matthew he continually compared the physical law to spiritual (in your heart) law. For example:

 

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

 

Here and in many other verses like this He give us an example - a pattern for us to follow when we study His other teaching and parables. The Old Testament was a shadow and type of His words.

 

Yes, discovering Jesus and the truth of His word requires a ton of reason, logic and biblical knowledge. Revelations is not some book for som esmall group of unfortunate people who happen to be living in "the last days". It is a book for every man in every time since it was penned. The "beast" is alive and well sitting on the throne in the temple right now. Not in some temple in Jerusalem...look in a mirror! Babylon will not be rebuilt - He is talking about the church system...today! When Jesus says "teh world" he is not talking about wordly, secular christians - he is talking about every man - christian, muslim, atheist alike. When Jesus says "earth", he is talking about the soil of your mind where thorns and thistles grow. When Jesus is talking about a lake of fire, he is not talking about a physical, literal lake of fire he is talking about Gods words - the ALL consuming Fire that will burn out dross (sin) in our lives to purify us...

 

Gosh, I can go on forever because there is so much to this and too broad and yet at the same time so tightly knit that I am finding it difficult to speak to one specific thing without referring to something else...

 

Please let me know if I can answer something specific frmo scripture that is bothering you...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This may be why Christians can hate others so readily-- they really love the spiteful, bloodthirsty, pain-loving monster that the god of the Bible is. They also leave out that Hell is a much later invention. Looks like gawd was too stupid and clumsy to remember to put it in the O.T.!

 

"ReformedSaint"-- look like you use the KJV mistranslation. Is the the One And Only True version o' th' Babble?

 

Yes, I fully agree with your first post - the doctrine of eternal torment make Hitler look like a little girl compared to what God is described as doing to the vast majority of His creation forever. Yes, most christians I know are pious, hypocritical adn look down awful hard from their thrones on those who do not have or cannot understand.

 

I use about 7 different translations of the Bible. The KJV primarily because that is what most concordances and dictionaries are based upon. I usually back everything up with literal translations like Youngs or the Concordant version.

 

The KJV has literally had hundreds of thousands of translation errors discovered over the years adn fixed in subsequent revisions. I also cannot stand old english..

[white_raven23]

Has Godwin's Law been invoked already?

[thunderbolt]

Please let me know if I can answer something specific frmo scripture that is bothering you...

Yes, please explain to me how you can built a True™ theology that you come here to peddle, based on verses (Luke 24:44-45) which is not contained in the earliest manuscripts of the more then 5000+ manuscripts out there? This later addition of Luke is acknowledged by almost all Biblical scholars (including conservative ones) as not part of the “original” manuscripts and additions by the Catholic church to the “Word” of God.

 

So, why should we trust the rest of your exegesis when you don’t even take something this simple into consideration?

 

Do you understand that to us you are no different than any of the 30,000 other Jesus cultists who claim to be following the True™ version of the Jesus story?

[Guest ReformedSaint]

 

 

Why is unbelief a sin? even if there is a god, who is harmed by me not believing in him?

 

My question was tongue in cheek because the vast majority of Christians tell you that if you do not believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior before you die then you will go to hell for eternity. My point is that Jesus came to save the world from sin - not just christians - and sin includes unbelief. So either jesus came to save Christians from all of their sins only if they believe or He came to save all people from their sins - period.

 

Unbelief was the original sin of Adam and Eve and the root of all sin. When God told Adam and eve that they would die if they ate from the tree of good and evil and the serpent said surely you will not die they took from the tree out of unbelief - they did not believe what God told them was true...

 

No one is harmed from you not believing in God Sin is not about you harming others - that is what the Law of God (in the Old Testament) was about - how mankind should behave towards others. You'll be please to know that nowhere in the Old Testament is unbelief considered a sin.

 

Please let me know if I can answer something specific frmo scripture that is bothering you...

Yes, please explain to me how you can built a True™ theology that you come here to peddle, based on verses (Luke 24:44-45) which is not contained in the earliest manuscripts of the more then 5000+ manuscripts out there? This later addition of Luke is acknowledged by almost all Biblical scholars (including conservative ones) as not part of the “original” manuscripts and additions by the Catholic church to the “Word” of God.

 

So, why should we trust the rest of your exegesis when you don’t even take something this simple into consideration?

 

Do you understand that to us you are no different than any of the 30,000 other Jesus cultists who claim to be following the True™ version of the Jesus story?

 

 

Where did you get this information? Pulling somthing out of your behind does not constitute truth. Back this up with something - anything from "almost all biblical scholars" that Luke 24:44-45 is not in the earliest manuscripts.

 

Thunder - as much as your dark little heart desires you cannot and will not get away with lies.

 

Raven - what is Goodwins law????

 

Ooppps: I wrote

 

"You'll be please to know that nowhere in the Old Testament is unbelief considered a sin."

 

and I didn't finish my sentence. I need to add Old Testament LAW - not just Old Testament....

[white_raven23]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

 

Godwin's Law.

[Kuroikaze]

 

 

No one is harmed from you not believing in God Sin is not about you harming others - that is what the Law of God (in the Old Testament) was about - how mankind should behave towards others. You'll be please to know that nowhere in the Old Testament is unbelief considered a sin.

 

 

 

 

I'm confused...are you a universalist then?

[Ouroboros]

I think so.

 

Go to his/her profile:

Reformed Christian and follower of Jesus Christ. Firmly convinced that ALL of God's reation will be reconciled unto Him and that today's church is in deep darkness, denial and apostasy. www.bibletruths.com and iswasandwillbe.com has information that will set your heart free to worship the one and only true God who LOVES you and would never, ever punish you through eternal torment in a place called hell. Discover the truth for yourselves - be prepared to get angry at what you are being conditioned to believe in the church system...

 

And I rather have a universalist Christian than a fundamentalist.

[Kuroikaze]

 

And I rather have a universalist Christian than a fundamentalist.

 

 

Yeah, I totally agree

[thunderbolt]

Where did you get this information? Pulling somthing out of your behind does not constitute truth. Back this up with something - anything from "almost all biblical scholars" that Luke 24:44-45 is not in the earliest manuscripts.

 

Actually you are right, I wasn't thinking about the last chapter of Luke, but the last chapter of Mark which contains verses not in the earliest manuscripts. My argument remains the same, unless of course you are willing to state that you never quote any verses from the last chapter of Mark which is known as the "longer ending of Mark." And there ARE verses in Luke 24 which is NOT in the oldest copies, just not the three you quoted.

[SkepticOfBible]

The KJV has literally had hundreds of thousands of translation errors discovered over the years adn fixed in subsequent revisions. I also cannot stand old english..

So why couldn't an omniscient God inspire a divinly inspired translation?So why would God let his word be incorrectly translated and circulated for hundreds of years?

 

. First let me begin that Jesus took the law of the flesh - the Old Testament Law - and made it a law of the spirit

What does that mean?Does it mean you don't obey the law anymore?

 

And what part of the OT says that the law would not be followed, but only the "spirit" of it?

 

that is what the Law of God (in the Old Testament) was about - how mankind should behave towards others.

 

Oh really, so you think that Slavery is actually a valid practice that mankind should still follow?After all it's wonderful way to treat our fellow men.

 

You'll be please to know that nowhere in the Old Testament is unbelief considered a sin.

 

What the heck are you talking about? You are either ignorant of what the bible says or just lying.

Deuteronomy 13:6-15

6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

 

12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in 13 that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, [a] both its people and its livestock.

[Lycorth]

All the nights I prayed for God to give me faith. He never gave me it.

 

That's one of the best reasons to deny the Xian god. According to the Xian spiel, the point of life is to be with their god and exist with him in heaven, but the realities of the world contradict that. If Yahooweh™ is real, then why does he not

 

1) destroy all evil beings who would tempt humans away from him?

 

2) regularly appear to humans to remind them he is real and of their need to believe?

 

3) just snap his holy fingers and give us all the faith we've asked for (since many Xians do this and fall away because Yahooweh™ doesn't deliver on the goods as promised)?

 

4) eradicate all suffering in the world to convince us of his existence and win millions of faithful suckers for all eternity?

 

Why does an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good, and all-loving god fail to do even that? We beg, we plead, we need, and we get squat. We get loads of promises in the Babble about the Lard and how he'll look out for us, and then life gives us the shaft and we realize there's no ubergod up there, ready to hook us up at every turn.

 

Simply living disproves the Xian god and any sort of ubergod like that.

[Antlerman]

 

I'd love to answer to your reply...

 

First, regarding common doctrine in the church. I can state with scriptural evidence that not one doctrine the church holds dearly and some claim is essential to avoid hellfire and enter heaven is just dead wrong. I'd like to refer you to the Lake of Fire series at bibletruths.com for a very in-depth and affirming expose on the church ALL based on what is in the Bible - not opinion. But if you would rather not read this just tell me one thing you think the church has right and I'll respond because they have nothing right about Christ, his doctrines, salvation, the rapture, eternal hell, tithing, Revelations, immortal soul and prophesy, the Kingdom of God, baptism...not one thing right! Mind you, I'm not dodging this and will wait for your question - there is just so much to undo I don't know where to begin.

 

BUT - this all said, the church is necessary to bring us into the truth of Jesus Christ. God laughs at the worlds wisdom and works through the foolishness of preaching.

 

I appreciate your enthusiastic spirit about finding answers for yourself. However to temper one’s enthusiasm with a broader appreciation for the vast, and legitimate diversity of perspectives of others, serves all of us well in the pursuit of finding a greater truth for ourselves.

 

You point out how other Christians interpret the bible is just “dead wrong”. There are many such entries on the site you referred me to which go into explanations about these things. I have read elsewhere also about the hell doctrine and universal salvation. Honestly, it is a much more appealing image of God than what traditional Christianity adopted historically for a variety of reasons. But that said, it is, as are the many other interpretations of doctrines listed on that site, another set of doctrines backed up by scripture. In other words, all of these doctrines – ones you agree with and ones you reject – are all backed up by an interpretation of scripture. Each person feels equally convinced their interpretations are the best ones. Each person is equal in this regard.

 

Concluding that those who read verses of the Bible differently than you are wrong, in my opinion is still being on the same level of understanding. No offense meant, but it’s like school children arguing on the playground which one is “the best”. From the outsider’s perspective, the argument is pointless because in the end the “perceived” winner is still just a child.

 

My point is that when I was in Christianity, the group I was with was saying identically the same statements as I am hearing you say, only they were in regards to different interpretations that these. They were equally as passionate and as enthusiastic as you are. This is not a bad thing to be enthusiastic, but a broader understanding and careful wisdom is greater and serves us and the world better in the long run.

 

 

Now, regarding the spiritual/physical. Jesus says here in John...

 

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

 

Paul says here:

 

Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

 

There are dozens of other verses I can share that all point to spiritual understanding and the folly of man's wisdom, yet this one ties things together...

 

Luk 24:44-45 KJVR And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. (45) Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the Scriptures,

 

Here Jesus is talking to his disciples - men and women who have been with Him for 3 1/2 years and seen him do many miracles and healing and were convinced He was their Messiah - that is until he was crucified adn they all abondoned Him. But nonetheless, this comes after He is risen and it wasn't until this point that He opened their understanding. He did this by telling them that the words He spoke referred to the Old Testament.

 

Now, you don't have to give up on reason and logic - you just need to apply it differently and refer to the Old Testament to "understand" what Jesus is saying in the New Testament. First let me begin that Jesus took the law of the flesh - the Old Testament Law - and made it a law of the spirit. For example, in Matthew he continually compared the physical law to spiritual (in your heart) law. For example:

<snip>

Like you, I hardly know where to begin in addressing this. First, I see no need for reason and logic to necessarily deny reality in favor of an interpretation of the Bible. By this I mean if someone reads the six-day creation of Genesis as 100% literal, that we must deny the findings of science the world over in favor of our interpretation of a religious text. I appreciate those who say that if science disagrees with their holy book, then the problem is with their understanding of the holy text, and not with science! Do you understand what I am saying? Accepting credible science is not being carnally minded.

 

Now as far as what you are addressing above with the scripture references, I would say this is speaking of the aspect of the human being who gains as different, and often times inspiring perspective by learning how to look at things more abstractly. This can happen on many levels in someone’s life: from turning around a negative perception about a given situation into a positive one, simply by looking at it in a “different light”. When we look at the world, our existence, and questions of “the meaning of life”, a different perceptive can be quite liberating and inspiring, a “born-again” experience. Getting to this place where “life” makes sense to us and has “meaning”, typically requires a change of perception – looking beyond the mundane, the daily grind, the earthly stresses, anxieties, and fears – to seeing the world in the sense of a higher ideal. This is essentially the crux of these concepts of being “carnally minded” and “spiritually minded” are being addressed by the Bible writers using the language of mythology as symbols of these concepts.

 

I'll leave it at that at this point.

[Open_Minded]

Ricky and Reformed Saint, Welcome on board.

 

Ricky, I agree with some of what Reformed Saint said, about throwing everything the pastor, church, etc... told you out the window and start fresh.

 

Where you land will fit you, it won't always be easy but you will find a deeper sense of peace that way.

 

As you can see I am Christian, I don't read the Bible the way many Christians do. I would caution anyone throwing out what they've been taught - not to do it with so much anger and bitterness that you are unwilling to sift through the garbage pile and find the valuable things you've been taught. That is a mistake people make in all dimensions of life, not just spiritual.

 

Reformed Saint, I admire your universal attitude. But.... I must confess to being a bit wary of your high dependence on an interpretation of the Bible. We are humans, it is impossible to know which interpretation is "TRUE". An intense dependence on a interpretation sets everyone up for pitfalls.

 

In the end we are all in a search for that which is totally impossible to comprehend with our bitty human brains, and hearts. At some point we must be willing to let go of the Bible, the church, the doctrine, etc... and just simply take the leap (as a friend of mine put it to me one time).

 

Ricky... when I think of the word "faith" I do not think of it as accepting some particular doctrine or form of "truth". To me faith is quite simple.

 

Have you ever been in a situation where all outword appearances seemed quite dire, but deep inside your heart you felt some peace about it all. You just simply felt the answer was there, that the problem would be solved and that all would turn out ok?

 

That to me is faith. A simple quiet feeling inside that I am part of something much too infinite to fully comprehend. Just a simple quiet feeling inside that there is purpose to all of this - and I just simply connect with that feeling. It's not some huge big lightening boldt from the sky, just a quiet feeling.

 

And I've lived long enough to know that other people can comprehend all of existence in a completely different way than I do, and they can know deep down in their own hearts that things are the way they see them.

 

This does not have to be considered a conflict. We are, after all, seeking after infinity. Who among us will find it in totality?

[Ouroboros]

Ricky, I agree with some of what Reformed Saint said, about throwing everything the pastor, church, etc... told you out the window and start fresh.

 

Where you land will fit you, it won't always be easy but you will find a deeper sense of peace that way.

Almost sounds like Ricky should throw himself out the window...

[Open_Minded]

Ricky, I agree with some of what Reformed Saint said, about throwing everything the pastor, church, etc... told you out the window and start fresh.

 

Where you land will fit you, it won't always be easy but you will find a deeper sense of peace that way.

Almost sounds like Ricky should throw himself out the window...

 

HanSolo how right you are.

 

Let's try a new approach. Ricky - run as far away as possible from everything your pastor has ever taught you, from the church, etc....

 

If you have to jump out the window to do it, have at it. Simply use a parachute of reason, common sense, and self-honesty - and oh - don't forget your sense of humor (you will need it). Then "Where you land will fit you".

 

Better HanSolo?

 

[Gobbler]

Hi Ricky - don't give up on yourself or your faith. Just give up on the church and throw away EVERY doctrine your pastors, parents and well-meaning christians have taught you. Seek the God in the Bible.

 

 

This is exactly the point! Where do you think your christian friends, parents, pastors, and the average fundy nutjob gets their doctrines? Even though the average person on the street believes in what you would term, "Universalism", the average "Fundy next door" does not. Those christians believe you are going to hell for your heresy. If universalism is true, what is exactly the point of a deity requiring a blood sacrifice for human sin; past, present, future? If we are all to be reconciled in the end anyway, WTF? Adam, guilty of unbelief? Huh? He had the Hebrew Tribal War God right there in the Garden talking every day with him! Maybe it was just curiosity. Maybe Eve was going to withhold sex if he didn't eat the fruit. Uhhh..... maybe it's just all bullshit!

[Ouroboros]

Better HanSolo?

Yup. Much better. As long as he can land on something soft... like the forums on Ex-C for instance.

[Poonis]

Ricky, I agree with some of what Reformed Saint said, about throwing everything the pastor, church, etc... told you out the window and start fresh.

 

Don't stop there; also toss out the bible, belief, faith, prayer, and everything else associated with christianity. If you don't, the same filthy stink will eventually return to permeate your intellect. Do away with all of it and the invisible chains of slavery will be no more.