Man’s Free Will (Or, Let’s Not Blame God)

[RichDellaValle]

 

 

Is Christian salvation available to man due to his choice to accept Jesus as Christ, or is the matter entirely out of his hands because God gets to make a choice? There are conflicting Christian doctrines regarding this issue. If a man gets to choose, that is called free will. If God chooses, then that is predestination.  Over 100 verses of Scripture support predestination, including Job 14:1 and 5, Prov. 16:9, Acts 13:48, Rom 8:28-30, Eph. 1:4-5, Eph. 2:10 and 2Thess. 2:13, which says, “But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.”

 

Making a case for free will is just ONE verse found in the Old Testament, Deut 30:19, where God says, “I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.”

 

On page 15 of Pros Apologian, Rev. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries is an article entitled “Rebellious Lumps of Clay and the Praise of God’s Glorious Grace.” In this article, White states, “...before the very creation of the world, God chose His people in Christ Jesus, not based on what they did or would do, but solely based on His mercy and grace. He makes them holy and blameless in His sight by His Spirit and power (Jude 24-25). They are predestined to be adopted as sons through Jesus Christ, not according to their works, but according to His pleasure and will.” White says that God and God alone determine who is saved and who is damned. Man has no say in the matter. So, where does that leave the doctrine of free will?  How can people be free to accomplish what God has already pre-ordained? God’s sovereignty negates man’s free will. Man has no choice but to respond to the conditions surrounding him and his circumstances.

 

However, Biblicists need a strategy of free will to explain why evil supposedly reigns in man’s heart, so they created a doctrine out of thin air. They seem to forget that God admits to creating evil in several passages of scripture, most notably Isaiah 45:7. Christians want us to believe that Adam, by the exercise of his free will, decided to rebel against God, thereby bringing down the whole of humanity with him, necessitating the need for the Christian Church and its offer of redemption and avoidance of Hell.  The punishment of eternal fire doesn’t fit the crime of disobedience. That’s like killing my child because he ate something I told him not to eat. Wouldn’t that make me a terrible parent?

 

In his excellent book, ex-minister Dan Barker, Losing Faith in Faith, puts it this way: “If God were omniscient, then he knew when he created Adam that Adam would sin. He knew human beings would suffer. Regardless of whether the existence of evil can be theologically explicated, an all-knowing Creator deliberately placed humans in its path. This is at least criminal negligence, if not malice. Those who invoke “free will” forget that we all act according to a human nature that was supposedly created by God himself. You can argue all around the bushes on this point, but you can’t get away from the fact that Adam did not create his own nature. At the moment of creation, an omniscient deity would have been picturing the suffering and damnation of most of his creation. This is mean-spirited. God should have had an abortion.”

 

Many have asked why God didn’t make man so he couldn’t sin. A Christian apologist named Paul Little has this to say in his work entitled Know Why You Believe. “To be sure, he could have, but let’s remember that if he had done so we would no longer be human beings, we would be machines. How would you like to be married to a chatty doll? Every morning and every night, you could pull the string and get the beautiful words, ‘I love you,’ There would never be any hot words, never any conflict, never anything said or done that would make you sad! But who would want that?”

 

Satan and one-third of the angels couldn’t stand it and got out!  While trying to make a case for free will, Mr. Little destroyed heaven’s perfection. Isn’t heaven supposed to be where conflict, sadness, and hot words no longer exist? Yet Little says of such a condition, “Who would want that?”   Indeed, why be a Christian since Jesus is the means to heaven itself?

 

Did the unnamed pharaoh in Exodus have a choice to comply or not with God’s commands, or did God harden the pharaoh’s heart so God could exercise His wrath? Would Job’s family wish to die of their own free will? It seems that God has total control over every aspect of our lives. The Old Testament is riddled with God’s hatred of humans. He struck dead a priest who tried to save his Ark of the Covenant from spilling. To my mind, the worst thing God did was cause the flood that wiped out millions of people and animals. I’m sure there were a few righteous among that mass of humanity, not to mention the cruelty of drowning innocent animals who did nothing to anger God. Do Christians ever think about this? Did God honor their free will in that they all wanted to live?

 

I can go on and on about the butchery to be found in the Old Testament, but at least in the Old Testament God simply killed people, and they were obliterated from existence. Dead! But the New Testament God is much crueler! The Jesus God will have you suffer pain and torment in the burning fires of a Hell he created just for not believing that he is the same God as the God who said, “There is No Other but Me!”

 

Those who believe God is omnibenevolent and all loving are subject to believe any scam or myth. I advise Christians to avoid flowery sermons on Sunday and focus on not reading but studying every word in the Bible as if it were a 400-level college course. You will realize why so many ministers doubt God and consider leaving. 38% this year - higher than practicing Christian laypeople at 10%!*

 

*https://www.christianpost.com/news/leaving-christianity-what-are-the-statistical-trends.html

[walterpthefirst]

What do you think about Romans 8 : 18 - 21 and 11 : 32, Rich?

 

 

18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 

19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 

20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 

21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

 

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 

29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 

30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 

31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 

32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

 

The chapter 8 passage says that the creation was subject to frustration (i.e., bondage to decay through Adam's sin) NOT by Adam's will, but by god's will.  This must be so because Adam was created and the creation was subjected to frustration NOT by its own choice.  It was subjected to frustration by the will of one who is not part of creation.  This can only be god. 

 

In the narrative of events in Eden there are only five players and one of them, the angel with the flaming sword, does not play a pivotal role.  The others are Adam, Eve, the serpent and god.  By a process of elimination we can discover who's will caused all of creation to be overthrown.  It cannot have been Adam or Eve because they were part of creation.  Nor can it have been the serpent, because it too is part of creation.  That only leaves one viable candidate - god himself.

 

This is confirmed by the passage from chapter 11.

 

By comparing chapters 8 and 11 we can see HOW god chose to bind everyone over to disobedience.  Because Eve was the mother of all the living (Genesis 3 : 20) god used her and her husband Adam to bind everyone over to disobedience.  God gave Adam a warning not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but didn't give either Adam or Eve the free will to be able to obey him.  This is entrapment.  God caused them both to sin so that he could have mercy on them and all of their descendants, the entire human race, by the blood of Jesus Christ, centuries later.

 

So, the evil-doer in Eden wasn't the serpent or Adam or Eve.  The evil-doer was god.  He entrapped his innocent children so that he could glorify himself.  His motivation wasn't their good or their happiness but to satisfy his own ego.  He wrongfully blamed and cursed Adam and Eve, even though they had no God-given ability (free will) to obey his command.

 

Therefore, all of the suffering, disease and death that Christians traditionally lay at Adam's door amounts to the greatest miscarriage of justice in the history of the cosmos.  God himself was the cause of suffering and death.  He bound Adam and Eve over to disobedience and then gave them a warning and a command (see Genesis 2 : 16 & 17) that they had no hope of following.  How do we know this?  Because of Romans 11 : 29.  If god's gifts and call are irrevocable, how can his will be any different?

 

Since it was god's will to subject his own creation to frustration it therefore must have been his will for Adam and Eve to disobey him.  By tying the fate of creation to Adam's ability (or lack of ability) to obey him god denied Adam free will and made him a pawn in his great plan of self-glorification.  And we are all still paying the price for god's malice, duplicity and narcissistic self-regard.

 

 

With all due respect Rich, in the light of the argument I've made here, I reckon that you need to re-think your position on free will.  Adam didn't have any, nor did Eve.  God saw to that.  It's there in b&w in those two passages from Romans.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

8 hours ago, RichDellaValle said:

Making a case for free will is just ONE verse found in the Old Testament, Deut 30:19, where God says, “I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.”

Rich, 

 

Hello again. Well I think your post is very one sided. There is a lot of scripture that appears to indicate the prospect of free will in the new and old testament. As you have already stated in a previous post. The Bible was written and imagined by failabale men. Not an all powerful God. These men had conflicting ideologies over the years. 

 

So when we read the bible all those conflicting ideologies are all piled together in one book. Christians have been trying to sort all this mess and make it make sense since the council of Nicea. Not admitting that it was just men writing down there own personal biases through the ages. Since your OP takes the stance of the predestination argument. I'll point out a couple of scriptures off the top of my head that indicate the prospect of free will.

 

In Ezekiel 18 starting in the 20th verse

 

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

 

As you can see in these verses. If the soul sins not it shall live. But if the soul turns from righteousness to wickedness it shall die. He even scolds the listener saying basically that he doesn't have any pleasure in anyone dying. He wants them to turn from wickedness which is also echoed in the new testament with Jesus. 

 

John 3 starting in the 14th verse KJV

 

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

 

While it does say that he that believes not is condemned already, that just refers to the original sin all men are under. We are condemned through the sin of Adam but have another option to believe in Jesus. And that anyone that believes in Jesus would be saved. 

 

We'll go further and hear what Peter had to say. Also echoing the statements of Ezekiel and Jesus. 

 

2 Peter 3:9 KJV

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

In this it is God's will that all should come to repentence.  And if it is his will that all should, but all don't. Then free will must be true. 

 

Not that I believe either argument anymore. But the arguments are there and have scripture to back both arguments. Further indicating that there were people writing the bible all throughout its history that believed both ideologies. 

 

Best regards,

Dark Bishop

[RichDellaValle]

21 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

What do you think about Romans 8 : 18 - 21 and 11 : 32, Rich?

 

 

18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 

19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 

20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 

21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

 

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 

29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 

30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 

31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 

32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

 

The chapter 8 passage says that the creation was subject to frustration (i.e., bondage to decay through Adam's sin) NOT by Adam's will, but by god's will.  This must be so because Adam was created and the creation was subjected to frustration NOT by its own choice.  It was subjected to frustration by the will of one who is not part of creation.  This can only be god. 

 

In the narrative of events in Eden there are only five players and one of them, the angel with the flaming sword, does not play a pivotal role.  The others are Adam, Eve, the serpent and god.  By a process of elimination we can discover who's will caused all of creation to be overthrown.  It cannot have been Adam or Eve because they were part of creation.  Nor can it have been the serpent, because it too is part of creation.  That only leaves one viable candidate - god himself.

 

This is confirmed by the passage from chapter 11.

 

By comparing chapters 8 and 11 we can see HOW god chose to bind everyone over to disobedience.  Because Eve was the mother of all the living (Genesis 3 : 20) god used her and her husband Adam to bind everyone over to disobedience.  God gave Adam a warning not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but didn't give either Adam or Eve the free will to be able to obey him.  This is entrapment.  God caused them both to sin so that he could have mercy on them and all of their descendants, the entire human race, by the blood of Jesus Christ, centuries later.

 

So, the evil-doer in Eden wasn't the serpent or Adam or Eve.  The evil-doer was god.  He entrapped his innocent children so that he could glorify himself.  His motivation wasn't their good or their happiness but to satisfy his own ego.  He wrongfully blamed and cursed Adam and Eve, even though they had no God-given ability (free will) to obey his command.

 

Therefore, all of the suffering, disease and death that Christians traditionally lay at Adam's door amounts to the greatest miscarriage of justice in the history of the cosmos.  God himself was the cause of suffering and death.  He bound Adam and Eve over to disobedience and then gave them a warning and a command (see Genesis 2 : 16 & 17) that they had no hope of following.  How do we know this?  Because of Romans 11 : 29.  If god's gifts and call are irrevocable, how can his will be any different?

 

Since it was god's will to subject his own creation to frustration it therefore must have been his will for Adam and Eve to disobey him.  By tying the fate of creation to Adam's ability (or lack of ability) to obey him god denied Adam free will and made him a pawn in his great plan of self-glorification.  And we are all still paying the price for god's malice, duplicity and narcissistic self-regard.

 

 

With all due respect Rich, in the light of the argument I've made here, I reckon that you need to re-think your position on free will.  Adam didn't have any, nor did Eve.  God saw to that.  It's there in b&w in those two passages from Romans.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

[RichDellaValle]

Wow, I thought I made it pretty clear that MAN HAS NO FREE WILL. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

6 minutes ago, RichDellaValle said:

Wow, I thought I made it pretty clear that MAN HAS NO FREE WILL. 

Walter agrees. He's just asking your thoughts. But I believe the bible teaches both doctrines because of conflicting theologies.

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

49 minutes ago, RichDellaValle said:

Wow, I thought I made it pretty clear that MAN HAS NO FREE WILL. 

Hey Rich,

 

I hope you don't think we mean any ill will toward you. We are just putting our input on the topic you started. Several of us here were well studied in their former faiths and enjoy discussing the various doctrines. By your post I assume yours was more of a predestination oriented faith. Because you seem to be well versed in the subject. 

 

Mine took more of a free will stance. We saw the predestination scriptures differently. Not that we ignored them. We just considered some things. Like the exodus for instance a predestination event that had to happen to bring God's predestinated plan of salvation forward. Therefore Pharoahs heart was hardened. That was Pharoahs purpose in life. From our perspective. 

 

But we all know now that it is just the imagination of ancient sheep herders. So please don't take our replies negatively. We just want to basically have a back and forth discussion. Pointing out different views. 

 

DB

[walterpthefirst]

55 minutes ago, RichDellaValle said:

Wow, I thought I made it pretty clear that MAN HAS NO FREE WILL. 

 

DarkBishop is right Rich, you and I agree that according to scripture, man does not have free will.

 

He was also right when he pointed out that I was asking for your thoughts about those two passages in Romans.

 

 

Here's a little more about Romans 11 : 32, from Strong's Concordance of NT Greek words.

 

https://biblehub.com/text/romans/11-32.htm

 

Reading this verse in English it says, "For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

 

The key word in this sentence is SYNEKLEISEN, which means "has bound up".

 

Greek Concordance: συνέκλεισεν (synekleisen) -- 2 Occurrences (biblehub.com)

 

The same word crops up in Galatians 3 : 22, where Paul talks about god locking up (literally imprisoning) scripture. 

 

Galatians 3:22 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com)

 

 

This is pivotal to my argument Rich and also agrees with your position, that man has no free will.

 

How can man possibly have free will if god has bound everyone over to be disobedient to him?

 

Ok, Paul claims that god did this so that he could have mercy on sinners, by ensuring that everyone sins.

 

But, any way you cut this, god has violated our free will by literally locking up our free will and making us unable to freely choose to obey him.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

"For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

 

Creating chaos so he can be a savior.   Sounds like a narcissist politician to me. 

[walterpthefirst]

Hello again, Rich.

 

 

Looking back at my earlier post I can see how this sentence was ambiguous and misleading.

 

With all due respect Rich, in the light of the argument I've made here, I reckon that you need to re-think your position on free will.  Adam didn't have any, nor did Eve.  God saw to that.  It's there in b&w in those two passages from Romans.

 

I didn't make what I meant as clear as I should have.

 

 

Here's a better, clearer and less ambiguous rehash of my intent.

 

You make the case that according to the bulk of scripture man has no free will.  There only seems to be one verse (Deut 30 : 19) where man is offered a choice, implying that he possesses the free will to choose.  I agree with your analysis.

 

My argument only differs from yours inasmuch as I try to show two things from scripture.  First, that it was god's will and intent to cause the perfection of his own creation to be overthrown and to blame Adam, Eve and the serpent for the deed.  Second, that god caused everyone to be unable to obey him, using Eve (the mother of all the living) as his instrument to spread that seed of disobedience throughout the entire human race. 

 

On the basis of those two points we can see that scripture tells us how god did this and why god did this - to glorify himself.  It was never his plan to give Adam and Eve free will so that they could freely obey his command not to eat from the forbidden tree.  They were the patsies, the fall guys and the scapegoats of god's duplicity, malice and narcissism.   

 

So, as you say, there is the scam and the myth on Christianity.  Despite the truth of what god did being written in plain sight, for millennia Christianity has been a game of smoke and mirrors, perpetrating the lie of god's goodness and love by manipulating the emotions of entire world.

 

 

I hope that this explanation rectifies things.  We do indeed agree that in the bible, man has no free will.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter. 

[RichDellaValle]

To All

 

There is no problem or hard feelings. The thing is, I wrote that essay along on Free Will with over a hundred others for a Christian-targeted audience, so I can understand how fellow ex-Christians, through an agnostic or atheistic lens, can get the impression that I am a believer in Predestination.

 

I get a kick out of Christians who decide to go to church and think they are automatically “saved” while continuing to lie, cheat, and steal. They believe that by their own free will, they decide their supposed life of a blissful eternity with their god when their Bible tells them no such thing.

 

In my small and unscholarly way, since I lack the education, I try to convince Christians of the folly of their ways. I was a devout Christian for twenty-four years. I admit that I do not discount the existence of a being that I’d call a True God, and maybe the Hebrew God is that deity. I doubt it very much, but since Christianity is based on the Old Testament, in my writings, I have to give the impression to my target audience that that document is the truth even though I believe the Pentateuch was written by a bunch of sages fresh out of Babylonian captivity, trying to impress others with their greatness and I do say that in a few essays! 

 

This may clear things up. Following is what I wrote (to Christians!) regarding the doctrine of Predestination.

 

A Protestant doctrine that directly conflicts with the concept of “free will” is another doctrine called “Predestination.” John Calvin was a principal figure in developing the system of Christian theology, later called Calvinism, including its principles of Predestination and God’s absolute sovereignty in the salvation of the human soul from death and eternal damnation.

 

Over one hundred verses of New Testament (NT) scripture support Predestination. Here are just a few:

 

Acts 2:23: “Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.”

 

John 1:12-13: “But as many as received him, to them gave he the power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

 

Prov. 16:9: “A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.”

 

Acts 13:48: “And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”

 

Rom 8:28-30: “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”

 

2Thess 2:13: “But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.”

 

Eph 2:10: “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

 

Eph 1:4-5: “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.”

 

Rev. 13:8: “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb  slain from the foundation of the world.”

 

Most Christians reject this doctrine because they have been convinced that Free Will rules the planet and is the cause of evil! According to S. Michael Houdmann of Got-Questions, “They (most Christians) despise the idea that their faith was predestined. They loathe that God choosing them had anything to do with them coming to Christ for salvation.”

 

Simply put, they want to think they are entirely in control of their eternal destiny. They believed they received Christ as Savior of their own free will. I don’t think Houdmann is wrong. Think about this: Do you think you are saved if you choose God of your own volition but continue to sin? Isn’t that mocking Him? 1John 3:9 states: “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” If God chooses you, it would be inevitable that 1John 3:9 is a true statement without exception – you could not sin! You could ask, “What about 1John 1:9?” which is the Christian’s justification (free pass) to sin. 1John 1:8-9 says, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” This verse seems contradictory in that we can sin all we want as long as we confess! But it certainly is not because just three verses back, John says, “This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness, we lie and do not the truth.” That sounds pretty explicit! 

 

Conversely, 1John 3:9 and 1John 1:5 also seem to be contradictions of 1John 1:9, which is a huge problem and should trouble you greatly! If God is perfect, we must recognize that he will not tolerate any acts of sin from the people he wants to associate with by giving his elect the ability to be sinless. 1John 5:18 states, “We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin.” Therefore, sinless perfection can ONLY be achieved by a gift (miracle) from God. Any Christian minister worth his/her salt will tell you that to repent is not merely an utterance of words but is preceded/accompanied by or associated with a feeling of guilt for sin, recognition, and acceptance of the sacrificial-saving grace of Jesus, a heartfelt emotional (or penitence: grief, groan) desire to change to a life devoted to God. Afterward, one needs to be born again, allowing the Spirit of God to make Spirit-led lifestyle changes, resulting in a complete absence of sin. If one repeats certain indiscretions, knowing they are abhorrent to God, that person cannot be born again and is therefore not accepted.

 

Hebrews 10:26-31: “For if we sin wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me. I will repay, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of God.”

 

Hebrews 3:14-15:  “For we are made partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end; While it is said, Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.”

 

Titus 3:3, 5: “For we ourselves also WERE sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. … Not by works of righteousness WHICH WE HAVE DONE, but according to his mercy he saved us…” (emphasis mine. “Were” indicates the past)

 

Eph 1:4-5: “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.”

 

Liberal ministers will never quote the above verses in their sermons because they know they continue to sin, as do the people they preach to. So they cleverly call upon the word “willingly,” in total rejection of the above verses. A truly saved person will never sin, willfully or negligently, unlike the rest of us who are habitual sinners as in 1Peter 5:2 ESV - Shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly.

 

What need is there for confession called for in 1John 1:8-9 once you are born again and believe the above verses precisely as they read? It won’t do to tell yourself that you can repeatedly sin, confess, and expect to be justified and glorified again and again. Some pastors or priests will tell you such because they benefit from 1John 1:9 in providing them an occupation. However, 1John 1:9 should make sense if you apply it ONE TIME: when God lets you know He wants you on his team, you acknowledge and accept it, He gives you sinless perfection, and you walk forever in righteousness. The puzzle then comes together. The Holy Ghost forever guides you in a sin-free life. That’s not me saying this. This is what is written!

 

Christianity is a religion of guilt built upon unachievable demands. Very few people live like saints, which is also God’s will. Matthew 7:13-14 states, “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide, and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow, and the way is hard, leading to life, and those who find it are few.” Few means hardly any or almost none!

 

On the other hand, to my way of thinking, if you live by any version of the “Golden Rule,” you will be doing (the true) God’s will. I heard a joke years ago by Thomas Ybarra: “A Christian is a man who feels repentance on Sunday for what he did on Saturday and is going to do on Monday.” I don’t think it is funny, but it sure is accurate! Since very few people live sin-free lives. A sinless life is an impossibility because other sections of the Bible say that no one is righteous! That is the problem with the contradictory Bible! Christians believe that Jesus paid the penalty for our wicked ways so we can go about our lives as we wish. For a tithe and a belief, we can do as we please. If only that were true! 

 

So, what is one to do? We are told God gives all humans a sinful nature. Christianity joyfully tells us we can gain salvation by believing that Jesus died and paid the penalty for our sins. Christian dogma dictates that we stop sinning entirely once the Holy Spirit indwells us, but only a few can achieve this. What are the rest of us to do since we “willfully” do things we know are wrong? You won’t find an answer in the New Testament! We are hopelessly doomed. Christianity gives us little hope of a happy eternity except for “the few.” On the other hand, the Old Testament declares that God lovingly forgives us for the many evils we commit. Perhaps we should devote more study to the OT since the NT wasn’t thoroughly thought out!

 

Solomon has a good answer, “Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good or evil” (Ecclesiastes 12:13,14). Also, Psalm 103:11-13 – “For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is His loving devotion for those who fear Him. As far as the East is from the West, so far has He removed our transgressions from us. As a father has compassion on his children, the LORD has compassion on those who fear Him.”

 

We need no advocate because God does not require propitiation. He gives us forgiveness. The fear (meaning reverence) of God is the only necessity of life. Solomon taught that “through love and faithfulness, the wrongs we commit are atoned for;” and “through the fear of the Lord, a man avoids evil” (Pr 16:6; cf. 8:13). Nowhere does Solomon declare a future redeemer to be born of his seed. That concept is not spoken of or hinted at in the Old Testament.

 

For more insight, see Isaiah 1:18, 43:25, 55:7, Proverbs 28:13, 2Chronicles 7:14, 30:9, Psalms 25:7, 32:5, 79:9, 86:5, 103:10-12, 130:4, Jeremiah 3:12, 31:34, Micah 7:18, Joel 2:13, and Nehemiah 9:31.

 

The crux of the matter boils down to this and is a quote from my deceased mentor and friend, Dennis McKinsey, author of Biblical Errancy, Prometheus Books:

 

“In summary, then, Scripture clearly shows that Predestination is an integral part of biblical theology. Interestingly enough, according to the Bible, no Biblicist is a Christian because none abide in Christ. Since none abide in Christ, how anyone can be saved becomes a logical question. Why can’t people abide in Christ? Because everyone commits anti-social behavior, or what Biblicists refer to as sin, and that excludes them summarily, then no one has ever been born of God since all Biblicists continue to sin, regardless. Until someone can demonstrate sinless perfection, abiding in Christ remains illusory.”

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

2 hours ago, RichDellaValle said:

 

“In summary, then, Scripture clearly shows that Predestination is an integral part of biblical theology. Interestingly enough, according to the Bible, no Biblicist is a Christian because none abide in Christ. Since none abide in Christ, how anyone can be saved becomes a logical question. Why can’t people abide in Christ? Because everyone commits anti-social behavior, or what Biblicists refer to as sin, and that excludes them summarily, then no one has ever been born of God since all Biblicists continue to sin, regardless. Until someone can demonstrate sinless perfection, abiding in Christ remains illusory.”

 

Question, do you think that predestination is the only doctrine the bible teaches? Or do you agree that it teaches both in different areas? As I stated in my previous posts.

 

This is a very good argument for predestination. Solid with scriptures to support it. I can definitely see how this would make some free will Christians stumble. Especially if they haven't studied their own doctrines out. 

 

What do they usually say when you hit them with this?

 

DB

[RichDellaValle]

I scour the internet for Christian sites that allow questions. Much to my surprise, there aren't many, but the majority of the ones that do simply ignore me, and I never hear back. A few did answer with topics of their own, failing to address the issue I presented. Talking to a BRAINWASHED Christian is like playing with mercury, they're all over the place, and just when you think you nailed them, they slither away with the usual crap that it is me that misunderstands, I was never a true Christian, etc. They will cite a verse that says the opposite, and when I respond that they are admitting to contradictions in their precious book, I get more silence. In the end, I'm satisfied that at least they will begin to think about their belief and will eventually abandon religion as I did. Their numbers decrease every year! 

 

The New Testament discusses a lot of doctrines that are not even hinted at in the Old Testament, such as the Trinity, virgin birth, Original Sin, an evil satan who kills and personifies evil, heaven, and eternal damnation, to name but a few. The Bible also talks about Universalism which is my particular favorite and the only one I believe if it turns out god exists and gives a crap about us.

[walterpthefirst]

20 hours ago, RichDellaValle said:

I scour the internet for Christian sites that allow questions. Much to my surprise, there aren't many, but the majority of the ones that do simply ignore me, and I never hear back. A few did answer with topics of their own, failing to address the issue I presented. Talking to a BRAINWASHED Christian is like playing with mercury, they're all over the place, and just when you think you nailed them, they slither away with the usual crap that it is me that misunderstands, I was never a true Christian, etc. They will cite a verse that says the opposite, and when I respond that they are admitting to contradictions in their precious book, I get more silence. In the end, I'm satisfied that at least they will begin to think about their belief and will eventually abandon religion as I did. Their numbers decrease every year! 

 

It's really not that much different here, Rich.

 

The Christians who are long time members and those who visit for just a while both exhibit the same kind of behaviours you describe.  They evade difficult questions, they obfuscate, they practice outright denial or they simply refuse to answer and continue in their beliefs as if the questions did not exist.  There are a number of responses that do seem to crop up though.  For example and in no particular order.

 

The mind of god is so far above us that what seems like a bible contradiction actually isn't one - if we had greater understanding said contradiction would vanish.

The bible is not set in stone, it is incomplete and god set us the task of discovering the full truth of it through faith, prayer and trust in him.

The bible is absolute truth, but since we cannot understand absolute truth here on Earth we will have to wait until we understand it fully and absolutely in heaven.

 

And so on.

 

I suppose we shouldn't be surprised at this because people don't become Christians for logical and rational reasons.  They are either raised in it and are therefore unlikely to be able to think rationally outside the box of Christianity or their emotions dragged them into Christianity by suppressing their powers of reason.  Either way, people remain Christians, not because of any rational reasons but because they enjoy what it gives them on a purely emotional level.  Little wonder then that they cannot answer our questions or simply refuse to do so.  They have no rational basis for their beliefs and so cannot give any rational answers to rational questions.

 

20 hours ago, RichDellaValle said:

The New Testament discusses a lot of doctrines that are not even hinted at in the Old Testament, such as the Trinity, virgin birth, Original Sin, an evil satan who kills and personifies evil, heaven, and eternal damnation, to name but a few. The Bible also talks about Universalism which is my particular favorite and the only one I believe if it turns out god exists and gives a crap about us.

 

I'm familiar with what you say, Rich.

 

But may I ask you a question about two possible instances of the Trinity occurring in Old Testament?   Because you've clearly done your research and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the matter.

 

 

The first is Genesis 3 : 22.   And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 

 

The traditional Jewish explanation for this is that god is referring to himself in the majestic plural, where a king will talk about himself as the royal 'we'.   Which makes 3 : 22 an example of a singular person (god) talking about himself in a plural sense, rather than a trinity of separate people (Father, Son & Holy Spirit) talking among themselves.

 

Royal we - Wikipedia

Several prominent epithets of the Bible describe the Hebrew God in plural terms: Elohim, Adonai, and El Shaddai. Many Christian scholars, including the post-apostolic leaders and Augustine of Hippo, have seen the use of the plural and grammatically singular verb forms as support for the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

 

The other instance occurs in Genesis 19 : 24.  Then the Lord rained down burning sulphur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens. 

 

This argument hinges on the god being in two locations simultaneously - god going down from talking to Abraham and physically visiting the city of Sodom and god also being up in heaven, from where he rained down burning sulphur on the city.  If there was a Lord god in Sodom and a Lord god in heaven, this clearly shows us two persons of the Trinity, right?  

 

Here's what the Hebrew interlinear says.  gen19.pdf (scripture4all.org)   View this .pdf on Fit to Page mode to see it best.

 

and . Yahweh  he - caused  - (to)  - rain  on  Sodom  and . on  Gomorrah  sulphur  and . fire  from . (with)  Yahweh  from  the .  heavens

 

 

So, what are your thoughts on these two possible references to the Trinity in Genesis, Rich?

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[pantheory]

Why not blame God for every malady of life. After all he and Santa are only fictional characters 

[walterpthefirst]

21 hours ago, pantheory said:

Why not blame God for every malady of life. After all he and Santa are only fictional characters 

 

We agree that they are, Pantheory.

 

But to faithful Christians, god is not.

 

The thrust of my argument is to demonstrate, from those two passages in Romans, that god is indeed to blame for every malady of life.  And every natural disaster.  And every deformity of birth.  And for death itself.  That god is solely responsible for and to blame for ALL moral and natural evil in the world.

 

The onus is now upon any Christian apologist to argue against this.

 

They'll need a miracle (literally!) to do that, seeing as they will be arguing against the very thing they believe is the truth - scripture itself.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[pantheory]

9 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

We agree that they are, Pantheory.

 

But to faithful Christians, god is not.

 

The thrust of my argument is to demonstrate, from those two passages in Romans, that god is indeed to blame for every malady of life.  And every natural disaster.  And every deformity of birth.  And for death itself.  That god is solely responsible for and to blame for ALL moral and natural evil in the world.

 

The onus is now upon any Christian apologist to argue against this.

 

They'll need a miracle (literally!) to do that, seeing as they will be arguing against the very thing they believe is the truth - scripture itself.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

As for me, being serious is not my strong suit -- especially about fictional characters.