God's Great Sacrifice Of His Son

[ChristiaNazi]

During the Easter Season I got to thinking about something. The sacrifice of Jesus on the cross is generally held up as the be-all end-all of selfless acts and the ultimate tragic loss to his father God. Now consider this:

Where's the great sacrifice? Many fathers encourage theiir sons to go off to war to save humankind from one thing or another. Many of the sons end up dead. There is one important difference. When human fathers give their sons for humankind's salvation, their sons stay dead! Jesus, on the other hand only had to stay dead for 3 days!

In addition, as the world's only God/man hybrid he, unlike everyone else, died knowing (not just strongly believing) that he would go to heaven with absolute certainty. As a backup plan, if he didn't go to heaven, he knew he'd be back among the undead in only 3 days. And if that didn't work, there was also the consolation that the other 2/3 of him was going to remain alive regardless.

So much has been made of the suffering of Christ and the horror of the death itself, but let's break that down. Crucifixion is undeniably a horrible death, but hardly a unique one in Bible times. It is also not the worst possible fate one could ever suffer. Even using Mel Gibson's snuff film as an example, many people have suffered far more torture and far slower and more painful death. There is the "without sin" part, but still Jesus is certainly not the only person ever executed unjustly. Given all of this and the fact that the "death" only lasted 3 days, I have to wonder, How hard could that be?

It's also represented that God the father suffered greatly while all of this was going on. All of us have lost friends and family to death (but unlike Jesus they always stay dead). So again how hard could it have been for God knowing his son was only going off to take a 3 day dirt nap? What great sacrifice? I guess though, looking at it a psycho-drama, it's probably pretty tramatic and disorienting having 1/3 of yourself dead for 3 days.

I guess this puts a new spin on John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he loaned 1/3 of his only self..."

(happy ending, get it?)

Anyway, the story has a happy ending because they didn't have guns back then and George Romero wasn't around to tell everyone they could kill Jesus for good by shooting him in the head.

...and the Holy Trinity lived happily ever after.

[LosingMyReligion]

I asked this question before and I agree.

 

Where was the huge sacrifice?

 

If I knew, emphatically, that taking a beating would get me 10 billion dollars, plus a huge fancy car I would do it too...

 

I mean the pain--although really bad--would eventually end.

 

There was nothing sacrificial about Jesus' death. If he had stayed dead and gone to hell for all eternity then that would have been a sacrifice.

[xrayman7040]

I posed the exact question to a very dear Christian friend of mine a while back. I too didn't think three days on a cross, although not real fun, really wasn't all that great of a sacrafice, when he knew he would live again. I mean look at those who spent YEARS of torture in the concentration camps, or Viet Nam prisons during the war. She was very insulted by this and said I just didn't understaind.

[Dhampir]

I asked that question once too, and no one I asked could understand that it wasn't a sacrifice. for some reason they started questioning my motives, as if I hadn't been asking critical questions the whole time.

[Angel]

I thought of that myself.... HOW can it be a sacrifice if he only had to give up 3 days of his life? They BOTh knew that he would be alive again, so how did he GIVE us anything? As mentioned, he was on loan to us.. lol

[Gobbler]

I too didn't think three days on a cross, although not real fun, really wasn't all that great of a sacrafice, when he knew he would live again.

 

Wasn't it only like six hours that he hung on the tree? According to the myth anyway. Then he got to lay down a little bit in his tomb. Pal around with the patriarchs in paradise or wherever the fuck they were hanging out. Steal the keys of hell from that poor sap Satan, then magically come alive to talk with a couple of babes outside the tomb! Yea, big sacrifice. Now if he were flayed alive, that would be different.

[Ziggy]

And of course he was human so if they did not hang him on the cross he would have died anyway of whatever people died of in those days. Even if he was lucky and avoided illness he would still have died in old age and presumably raised back up 3 days later but ...would that still have been told as the greatest sacrfice ? I wonder where Christianity would be if his death was not so public or dramatic.. even though the whole point of his death was a spiritual one - ie to save us from hell - that had nothing to do with our or his physical being anyway.

 

And of course that raises the Hell issue - which is another thorn in literalist thinking's side

 

On why the Christian will not see this I have this theory;

They have believed in Christ as a Man and believe he is still alive now to be prayed to etc and that they have made a solemn commitment to him. If they think along any lines that lessens what they believe he did they would feel like traitors as they would be personally hurting him now. Its a kind of loyalty thing I suppose. Oftern a good trait in humans I may add but which can sometimes blind loyalist.

Of course all IMHO

[Ouroboros]

I've asked the question about the so called sacrifice too, several times on this site, to visiting Christians that wants to debate. But there's never any complete or good explanations.

 

And btw, Jesus supposedly was on the cross for a few hours, but in the grave for est. 40 hours (not 3 days). Because there's a loophole in the Jewish tradition of how to count days (I've learned this very recently). Jesus supposedly died just before Friday was over, dead during Saturday and raised early on Sunday. So they consider Friday to be the first day, even though he was supposedly dead only for a few hours, and the same for Sunday. What a cheap way of doing it! God can't give us the whole 3 full 24 hours even? To me, it smells trickery, rather than supernatural.

 

From what I heard (haven't confirmed this), there used to be a problem when people "died", that sometimes they weren't dead but in some temprorary coma or whatever it can be. And there were stories about people being "dead" for one or two days and wake up again. So if God really, really, seriously and completely wanted to show the world a miracle, let him be dead for a week or a month at least. Just barely 1.5 days doesn't really make it a miracle.

 

For instance, we don't know exactly the procedure for a crucifiction, but let's think about this. If Jesus was staging a stunt, a magic show, and he had some of the soldier on his payroll. They could have "nailed" him so he was little or none hurt. And the vinegar he was given, could have been a drug to make him go into sleep. There are ways of faking this.

 

The true miracle and the true sacrifice would have been if God killed Jesus, and his ghost would walk the earth and preach to us. It would beyond doubt if you saw a ghost comming to you and talking to you. And secondly this Jesus ghost could have gone around answering prayers and healing sick people. Would I be a believer if that was happening, you bet. Let's say there would be some doubters. Sure, a couple of percent. But the majority of humanity would believe, and believe the same religion. That's 99% salvation. Compare to now, only a third believes, and they don't even believe the same things. And there would be no wars, no pain, no torture, only happiness. And we most likely would take care of our planet. Heck, I'm smarter than God! He should make me his chief advisor!

[Caretaker]

Um..... What the fuck?

[notasheep]

 

Where's the great sacrifice? (etc.)

 

Agreed. and don't forget the reward: Spend a couple days dead, and the rest of eternity as God, with everyone forced to tell you what an awesome guy you are, or burn.

[Fishapod]

Now I have gone and become a huge fan of this GodIsImaginary.com site. It offers this funny perspective on the crucifixion in Proof #33:

 

Have you ever thought about how bizarre the crucifixion story is? Imagine the all-powerful, all-knowing creator of the universe sitting on his magnificent throne in heaven. He looks down onto earth and says to himself:

• Those evil humans down on earth. I hate what they are doing. All this sin...
   
  Since I am all-knowing I know exactly what the humans are doing and I understand exactly why they commit each sin. Since I created the humans in my own image and personally programmed human nature into their brains, I am the direct author of all of this sin. The instant I created them I knew exactly what would happen with every single human being right down to the nanosecond level for all eternity. If I didn't like how it was going to turn out, I could have simply changed them when I created them. And since I am perfect, I know exactly what I am doing. But ignore all that. I hate all these people doing exactly what I perfectly designed them to do and knew they would do from the moment I created them. I HATE IT! I tried killing all the humans and animals once in the flood. That certainly did not fix the problem.
   
  So here's what I am going to do. I will artificially inseminate a virgin. She will give birth to an incarnated version of me. The humans will eventually crucify and kill the incarnated me. That, finally, will make me happy. Yes, sending myself down and having the humans crucify me -- that will satisfy me. I feel much better now.
  

It makes no sense, does it? Why would an all-knowing being need to have humans kill himself (Jesus is God, after all) to make himself happy? Especially since it is a perfect God who set the whole thing in motion exactly the way he wanted it? The whole story of the crucifixion is absurd from top to bottom if you actually stop to think about it.

It offers one other example from there. Amusing.

 

Why do people believe this?

[Padreko]

Thats an interesting way of thinking about things. First I've ever heard that take on the crucifixion. Next time someone tries to evangelize me, I'll retort with that spin on christ.

[Bongo]

Yup, this has been an issue with me too.

 

You said it all very well.

 

But let me play "devil's" advocate here:

 

Although I had always wondered why God didn't exact the same punishment on Jesus that he does to us (everlasting torment, flames, sadistic demons, and no coming back, ....), I reckoned that the payment for mankind's sin was satisified by His mere voluntary death. Just like the bulls and sheeps didn't spend eternity in hell when they were sacrificed to pay for our sin, the death of the pure Lamb was sufficient to pay for the cost of our sin without needing to do the Hell bit, too.

 

Still, it isn't fair. We get eternal death & torture, he gets a slap on the wrist.

 

 

By the way, Mel Gibson's snuff film helped lead me to final deconversion. It was touted as being so TRUE to the bible, and history, etc. I cannot imagine anyone, after being given just that first brutal whipping, could do anything other than crawl onto a mat and suffer for three weeks, if he was still conscious at all. However, if I remember correctly, Jesus was scourged again with every inch of his flesh ripped up, stood in front of the Jews shouting "Barbaras!", then made to carry a 300lb cross up a hill ( oh yeah, He was helped by some guy for a bit, but that doens't count).

 

We've got some medical people here right? Could anyone function at all after that beating? How could they even have the strength to stand still, let alone drag the cross.

[pandora]

I agree with you guys. I have mentioned it to Christian acquaintances of mine, and their reply was that God was looking for blood, not the maximum amount of suffering. I say, then why can't Jesus just have gotten a paper cut?

[Padreko]

I agree with you guys. I have mentioned it to Christian acquaintances of mine, and their reply was that God was looking for blood, not the maximum amount of suffering. I say, then why can't Jesus just have gotten a paper cut?

 

 

 

 

Did you know that there was a drag queen here in rochester, who's name is Pandora's box. He would've totally said that I swear

[thunderbolt]

And ya know, if God was/is so hung up about sin, and since Adam and Eve didn’t quite work out for him, and since Noah screwed up as well, then why the hell didn’t he just spread his seed by impregnating the virgin and have them produce a sinless human race like Jesus from that point forward. I mean, he could have made every other woman on the planet sterile if it was THAT important for him to have his pure race fill the earth. Let’s call it Biblical ethnic cleansing. Mind you, that’s exactly what the Christians are praying for …

 

The whole story is so ridiculous and laughable.

[Ouroboros]

I agree with you guys. I have mentioned it to Christian acquaintances of mine, and their reply was that God was looking for blood, not the maximum amount of suffering. I say, then why can't Jesus just have gotten a paper cut?

Reminds me of the Jackass Movie. Paper cuts between you fingers and between your toes, that gotta hurt like Hell!

 

Imagine the story goes like this instead:

 

"Jesus saved us through his blood from multiple papercuts."

[willybilly30]

i want to know why god had to sacrifice his son on a cross to begin with?

i dont have to kill someone to forgive another person. it makes no sense.

[Angel]

i want to know why god had to sacrifice his son on a cross to begin with?

i dont have to kill someone to forgive another person. it makes no sense.

 

 

That is sooooo true! It doesn't make any sense. I know that I have heard christians talk about how people had to sacrifice animals for sin...and then came Jesus, he was sacrificed (the perfect lamb), so the animals' blood was no longer a requirement..... so in actuality, he came to save the animals??? I just don't get all this blood stuff.....it is insane really!

[dr_funkenstein]

That is sooooo true! It doesn't make any sense. I know that I have heard christians talk about how people had to sacrifice animals for sin...and then came Jesus, he was sacrificed (the perfect lamb), so the animals' blood was no longer a requirement..... so in actuality, he came to save the animals??? I just don't get all this blood stuff.....it is insane really!

 

It's just primitive magical thinking that's still carrying on into today. Primitive beliefs about appeasing the gods by sacrificing animals or even humans. Beliefs to do with the magical properties of blood. BibleGod™ is just another bloodthirsty, brutal, angry deity who requires death and bloodshed to appease him.

[ChristiaNazi]

By the way, Mel Gibson's snuff film helped lead me to final deconversion....I cannot imagine anyone, after being given just that first brutal whipping, could do anything other than crawl onto a mat and suffer for three weeks, if he was still conscious at all. However, if I remember correctly, Jesus was scourged again with every inch of his flesh ripped up, ...then made to carry a 300lb cross up a hill...

Well, I think it's kind of like the Jason thing in the Friday the 13th movie. Remember how no matter what they did to him it didn't kill him and he continued get back up to attack? Think of it as "Good Friday The 13th: Jesus Lives"

[Interested Atheist]

Xrayman said:

 

"I posed the exact question to a very dear Christian friend of mine a while back. I too didn't think three days on a cross, although not real fun, really wasn't all that great of a sacrafice, when he knew he would live again. I mean look at those who spent YEARS of torture in the concentration camps, or Viet Nam prisons during the war. She was very insulted by this and said I just didn't understaind."

 

Oooh, surprise surprise!

The last defence of a Christian! "You just can't understand it!"

[ChristiaNazi]

I know that I have heard christians talk about how people had to sacrifice animals for sin...and then came Jesus, he was sacrificed (the perfect lamb), so the animals' blood was no longer a requirement.....

Yes, Jesus saved a lot of animals. PETA or the SPCA should give him some kind of lifetime achievement award.

[Libertus]

Where's the great sacrifice? Many fathers encourage theiir sons to go off to war to save humankind from one thing or another. Many of the sons end up dead. There is one important difference. When human fathers give their sons for humankind's salvation, their sons stay dead! Jesus, on the other hand only had to stay dead for 3 days!

 

I have read plenty of arguments negating the sacrifice of jesus. I have made many arguments that it was not muchg of a sacrifice. I do not recall though that I have ever heard or thought of it in this context before. Well done, ChristiaNazi.

 

I know I am behind on the discussion, but I just wanted to make that comment.

 

Libertus

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I'd like to throw yet another monkey wrench into the mix.

 

Why, is it that God, needs a death/sacrifice in the first place?

 

Why is God, who is cast as "All Loving, All Forgiving" unwilling to simply let all this go?

 

Is God such a harsh, demanding butcher that God demands some sort of payment for simply being alive?

 

"All have sinned": In order for that statement to be true, then humans must be born with sin already in place.

 

And, since it is also a given, in Christianity, that God is the "Author" of all births, doesn't it follow that God deliberately created humans so that they are born with sin in place?

 

Now that I think about it, it's a nice, closed loop, isn't it? God created humans WITH sin already in place, and God also demands that something die so that God's creation can be with God after death.

 

Whew! God's not a very smart creator, now is It? Sort of like making a car with no motor - you must pay with a blood sacrifice, to get the motor added to the car, after it leaves the factory.

 

...

 

But back to my initial question: it sort of casts God in the Soul Merchant business, doesn't it?

 

In exchange for your free will, you get to sell your soul to God... nice, and God deliberately set it all up this way; says so, right here on the label under "omniciant, omnipresent and ominmagazine" ...