Salvation Lost

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Greetings,

I mentioned in an earlier thread about my conversion to a holiness church after being raised Baptist and answering the call to preach. And how it was through my biblical studies in the Baptist church that I began to see that the doctrine of “once saved, always saved”, wasn’t truly biblical. To justify that there are several scriptures that must be ignored, reinterpreted, or have an apologetic teaching to justify. I made the statement that according to the bible one could lose their salvation. And I believe that this was an original teaching even of the historical Jesus. @moxieflux66 thought it a good topic to expound upon. I’m posting this in the Lion’s Den in case any Christians feel  frisky and want to refute my findings. I'm also attaching the word Doc if you would rather read it that way. Remember, this is not meant to support any Christian teaching. I really have been apprehensive about expounding on this subject as I worried that some questioning or confused soul would see it and be so terrified that they would hastily return to the safety of God’s good graces. Let me tell you that the bible is written by people who believed multiple ideologies. The bible fails to prove itself in a multitude of sciences and studies. The bible is not written or inspired by God. It is only a book of ancient ideologies that really have no use in our modern world.  But if you are sensitive to reading bible passages an learning about what the Holiness sect of Chritianity teaches I urge you to stop reading now.

 

                How about we start with Jesus and with the strongest verse that the “once saved always saved” crowd have in their arsenal in my opinion?

 

John 10:

²⁷ My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

²⁸ And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

²⁹ My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 

        If this was the only verse you ever read on the subject it would be easy to say, “yes, it is obvious that when you commit your life to Jesus, you are destined to go to heaven from that point forward”.  But that is not the only scripture that  pertains to this subject. What does the rest of the bible say? We will start off in this self-same verse. Keywords are the lynch pin here. Notice that it says,  “No man can pluck them out of my hand”. The Keywords here are that no man can do this. It doesn’t say that one can’t remove themselves from his hands through disobedience.

 

            You’ll find through this study that the bible has an overall theme from front to back concerning this. Sin is never a good thing with God. Let’s look at the book of Romans.

 

Romans 6:

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

² God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

³ Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

⁴ Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

⁵ For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

⁶ Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

 

It plainly says here that we are not to sin anymore after salvation and baptism. Our old man is dead. And we are to be raised out of the watery grave of baptism to walk as Jesus walked. One of the things the Baptist church likes to emphasize is that we are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God. Well there is scripture for that. So lets go look at that. It is as well in Romans.

 

Romans 3

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

 

Well…. When the Baptists use it they take it out of context and don’t use the whole chapter to draw from. It is a cherry picked verse. Lets look at what it says after. Because why Paul tell us in Romans 3 that we are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God in Chapter 3 and turn around 3 chapters later to tell us we need to live without sin?

 

Romans 3

²³ For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

²⁴ Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

²⁵ Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

²⁶ To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

If you continue on as you can see it says that he shed his blood for the remission of sins that are past. A common thought with the “once saved always saved”  crowd is that his sacrifice covered all our sins past, present, and future. But that isn’t what the bible teaches. It teaches that he died for our sins that are past and that we should move on to sin no more. Crucifying or old selves to live a life like Chirst. A common misconception and something that is said a lot amongst Christians in my area is that, “only Jesus is perfect”. Well that is true, but it was because he was perfect and sinless that made him a suitable sacrifice for our sins and to make us Holy.

 

Hebrews 3

¹⁵ For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

¹⁶ Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

1 Peter 1:

 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

⁷ That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

⁸ Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

⁹ Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

¹⁰ Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

¹¹ Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

¹² Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

¹³ Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

¹⁴ As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

¹⁵ But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

¹⁶ Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

¹⁷ And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

¹⁸ Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

¹⁹ But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

 

Two points to make here.  The first related to Hebrews Chapter 4. In verse 19 here in 1^st peter it says we were redeemed by the blood of Christ, as a Lamb without blemish and without spot. This goes back to the Exodus, when God instructed the Isrealites in Chapter 12 to take a lamb without spot or blemish, offering it as a sacrifice to God they spread the blood on the door posts and above the doors of their homes. That night the Angel of death passed over all those that had followed Gods instruction but slaughtered the first born of all who didn’t. Killing all the first born of Egypt in the narrative.

 

Jesus is considered to be the final Passover Lamb. His blood saves the Christian from certain death.  But if that is the case, how do Christians lose salvation? The answer is not following the instructions and sinning.

 

1 corinthians 6

⁹ Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

¹⁰ Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

¹¹ And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

That is a pretty long list of sins. He warns them here that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God and urges them not to fall into these traps that make them sin. I wish I could shorten these next verses but pretty much all of James Chapter 1 reflects what I’m showing here.

 

James 1

² My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;

³ Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

⁴ But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

⁵ If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

⁶ But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

⁷ For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

⁸ A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

⁹ Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:

¹⁰ But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.

¹¹ For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.

¹² Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

¹³ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

¹⁴ But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

¹⁵ Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

¹⁶ Do not err, my beloved brethren.

¹⁷ Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

¹⁸ Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

¹⁹ Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:

²⁰ For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

²¹ Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

²² But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

²³ For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

²⁴ For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

²⁵ But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

²⁶ If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

²⁷ Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

 

These are the types of scripture I mentioned coming across in my Christian walk with the Baptist Church that made me question their stance on “once saved always saved”. This scripture does not reflect that. And I believe that this is what the early church taught. And I also believe James draws from the words of Jesus to justify this line of thought. And from scripture in the old testament.

 

Matthew 7

Judge not, that ye be not judged.

² For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

³ And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

⁴ Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

⁵ Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

⁶ Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

⁷ Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

⁸ For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

⁹ Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

¹⁰ Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

¹¹ If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

¹² Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

¹³ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

¹⁴ Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

¹⁵ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

¹⁶ Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

fruit.

cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

¹⁹ Every tree that bringeth not forth ¹⁸ A good tree ¹⁷ Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

²⁰ Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

²¹ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

²² Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

²³ And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So who enters the kingdom of heaven? Those that do the will of the father. Those that when tempted and tried remain faithful, don’t allow themselves to fall into temptation, and don’t sin.

But faith is not of works lest any man should boast right? Well lets look at that.

Ephesians 2

⁶ And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

⁷ That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

⁸ For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

⁹ Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The bible does say that, but what else does it say?

 

James 2

⁷ Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

⁸ If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

⁹ But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

¹⁰ For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

¹¹ For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

¹² So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

¹³ For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

¹⁴ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

¹⁵ If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

¹⁶ And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

¹⁷ Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

¹⁸ Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

¹⁹ Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

²⁰ But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 

The Holiness churches teach, and is reflected in scripture, that we are saved by grace through faith. It is not of any good thing that we did previously prior to salvation that made us worthy of this salvation. Only by faith alone. Holding true that we are saved by grace, through faith, and not of works lest any man should boast.

But that after that it is our works in God that keep us in Gods good graces. And are those works? As you can see in James it is taking care of one another and not sinning. Also not falling into temptation and sin. Rember, only those that do the will of the father will enter into his kingdom.

 

This ideology is consistent with old testament standards as well. In the flood of Noah we see that God looked down and saw the sin of man and he repented ever creating them and decided to destroy them. Save for Noah who found favor in Gods eyes because he was a righteous man.

 

After  the exodus there were a few instances where the isrealites sinned against God even after having faith in what Moses was teaching and God killed many.

 

In the old testament God says this:

Malachi 3

⁵ And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the Lord of hosts.

⁶ For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

⁷ Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return

 

He tells them that he is going to destroy them if they don’t turn from their sin. These are his own people. For Christians his people now are those that believe on Jesus. He says here that he Changes not. Lets look at one more scripture from the old testament.

 

Ezekiel  18:

²⁰ The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

²¹ But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

²² All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

²³ Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

²⁴ But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

²⁵ Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

²⁶ When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

²⁷ Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

²⁸ Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

²⁹ Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

³⁰ Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

If God does not change then this would have to hold true even after Jesus’s passion. And I believe that the scriptures reflect that they did believe this was the case. They never believed that salvation was a one and done event in ones life but that it was not finished until either death or the second coming as reflected in 1^st Peter 1

⁶ Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

⁷ That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

⁸ Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

⁹ Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

The holiness churches believe that everyone will be judged before the throne of God in the end as jesus say in John 5 and that their rewards will be dealt out then.

John 5

²⁶ For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

²⁷ And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

²⁸ Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

²⁹ And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

Never in my studies could I conclude that one could not lose their salvation. I found to much scripture, as you can see, that indicated the opposite. There is one more scripture I will mention before bringing this post to an end. It is probably the most troubling scripture in the bible and I don’t believe that is supported anywhere else, but there are some holiness sects that take it to the extreme by using this one verse. I know a man that can no longer see his own daughter because she believes that because he back slid and came back to God that there is no more forgiveness for his sin. This ideology is supported by one set of verse in Hebrews Chapter 10 and this is the only place where this ideology is reflected as far as I can tell.

 

Hebrews 10

¹⁹ Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

²⁰ By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

²¹ And having an high priest over the house of God;

²² Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

²³ Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

²⁴ And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

²⁵ Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

²⁶ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

²⁷ But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

²⁸ He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

²⁹ Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

³⁰ For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

 

Using this for the purposes that some of these churches do is a horrible and abusive teaching. I have not come across any of these denominations and I hope I never do. But these verses do not reflect the personality of the Old testament God as he always allowed isreal to repent of their sins and make things right with him. Likewise in Ezekiel the one that turns away from their wickedness is forgiven. And nowhere else in the new testament does it say Jesus won’t forgive you if you sin after salvation. But to die in those sins causes you to die the second death which is hell.

 

I hope everyone found this informative about the various holiness sects that are out there in the world. I was a Bishop for one of these groups and I hope my work here helps make up for the teachings I promoted when I was in to fold. I do regret it now, knowing what I know.

 

Best regards,

Dark Bishop

Salvation lost.docx

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

Hey, good thread! I guess we were more Baptist than anything else so I guess this is something Baptists think, eh? Didn't have any idea that there were 'variations' on the subject. Thanks for the good info! 

 

And what do the Christians have to say about this? 

[RankStranger]

Theology has consequences.  I grew up in an area where 90+% of people are Baptists... believing in the once-saved-always-saved doctrine.  In practice for most Baptists (not all, but most), this means that they have their one religious experience and 'get saved'.  Then they just do whatever the fuck they want and consider themselves preemptively forgiven by God.  That's why so many act like feral trash IMO.

 

That's not to say that holiness churches don't have their problems- they absolutely do.  Just different problems.  You don't see true believers in holiness churches behaving like Baptists.

 

I mean, the Southern Baptists are a denomination that began solely to justify slavery via the bible.  And continued their tradition in the 20th century be opposing desegregation... for Jesus.

 

Like I said, feral trash.

[walterpthefirst]

Please don't rise to this, DB.

 

Let the apostle James have the final word.

 

 

James 1 : 26

 

Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless.

 

 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

On 11/21/2023 at 6:34 AM, RankStranger said:

Theology has consequences.  I grew up in an area where 90+% of people are Baptists... believing in the once-saved-always-saved doctrine.  In practice for most Baptists (not all, but most), this means that they have their one religious experience and 'get saved'.  Then they just do whatever the fuck they want and consider themselves preemptively forgiven by God.  That's why so many act like feral trash IMO.

 

That's not to say that holiness churches don't have their problems- they absolutely do.  Just different problems.  You don't see true believers in holiness churches behaving like Baptists.

 

I mean, the Southern Baptists are a denomination that began solely to justify slavery via the bible.  And continued their tradition in the 20th century be opposing desegregation... for Jesus.

 

Like I said, feral trash.

I really must say, now that I've been on the site for a while, I have been one of the lucky ones! I got 'out' of the christian cycle of confusion very early in life, thanks to the opportunities available in a big coastal city (yes! elites!!!). There were too many other ways to look at life than our 'traditional' means via christianity. 

 

So it is a big surprise to me that christianity has fractured even more than it was in the 80's and 90's, when I mostly stopped paying attention. 

 

The competition is fierce! Membership is more exclusive and franchised as a business model. 

 

And then there's the free lance christians, such as I've seen here. 

 

Face it, you get to pick and choose what parts of the bible, Jesus and all that interpretation blah, blah blah, that you want to...what? Form your own religious cult? Otherwise, what are you promoting exactly? IF you don't affiliate with a 'church' or doctrine, or whatever, what are you doing here? 

 

While I'll give you credit for your obvious love of verbal jousting, what's your point? Sorry, but since it's the Lion's Den and apparently I resurrected you, I get to ask. I'm sure other inquiring minds want to know? 

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Well well well seemingly right on que the universe has Bart Ehrman do a podcast on the subject. Praise the Grand Architect  

 

My favorite part is where he says that James and Paul agreed that doing good things after salvation was necessary. And me linking that to the words of Jesus in the Gospels. That a 

"Lukewarm" Christian would be turned away. So to our resident Luke Warm kinda Christians. 

 

Good luck with that! Lmao   

 

Maybe yall should just go with what Jesus says and keep the law. No more ham for you guys in the holiday season. 

 

The whole damn bible is against yall. Maybe you should just write your own books to justify your..... whatever it is. 

 

DB

 

 

[RankStranger]

Again, I apologize for the my tone, my word choice, and for not considering your Baptist roots DB.

 

I clearly have some unresolved problems with Baptists.  Maybe I'll go to a Baptist church a few times and see if I can understand them a little better.  It'd be an exercise in restraint for sure.