It's never just a belief in God

[Wertbag]

When the question comes up "Why don't you believe in God?" it's actually a case that it's never just that one subject.  Believing in the bible God would mean in addition to the big guy, you are also accepting the existence of Jesus, angels, demons, heaven, hell and souls.  It's a single question but wide ranging in what beliefs would have to be incorporated.  It is rarely asked with the idea of a deist God in mind.

 

You do get Christians who are willing to drop various parts.  I found this behavior quite perplexing early on, as I thought there was some unity in thought on the basics at least, but no, not even the most foundational questions on existence are agreed upon.  Even "Did Jesus exist?" which I thought couldn't be discarded, does have some self-confessed Christians willing to sit on the fence.  "Well, whether he did or not is not important, it's the message and the path to God which should be focused on".  The bible literalists want to take it all as real world facts, while at the other extreme you have these progressive types who say the entire bible is metaphor, moral stories or ancient people trying to understand things beyond their ability to comprehend.  It's not fact but useful words of wisdom to shape your life around.  By this idea every single story, every miracle and every character can be hand waved away as just something used to teach us, and having discarded the entire bible these people still use the term Christian for themselves.

You now have people who are cultural Christians, such as the news reports on Ayaan Hirsi Ali rejecting atheism to become a Christian.  Once you read her reasoning for doing so, there is no mention of Jesus, the bible, belief in the resurrection or anything supernatural, instead she says it's better politically, it's better for morals and it's better to be onside with those you want to convince.  She is the least Christian you can be, but due to converting away from atheism she is getting massive media attention which was her sole purpose all along.

 

Do you believe in the global flood?  Well, it might have been local, or perhaps just a metaphor.  Do you believe in the resurrection?  Well, it might have been hyperbole or perhaps just a moral teaching.  Do you believe in hell?  Not as a place of fire, it only means separation from God or perhaps annihilation.  And then having seen the countless people wavering between possible choices you will have the Christian who states, "It is all so crystal clear, the only people who don't come to exactly my understanding must be intentionally taking it out of context or choosing to misunderstand it so they can ignore God's word".  So, thousands of years of debates, 60+ different translations of the bible, numerous denominations and no agreement on any subject, but you think you have the right answer and it's so obvious that everyone else is a fool for not instantly agreeing with you.  The arrogance of this position is astonishing and yet very common.

 

I've seen scholars talking about beliefs prior to the NT, and things which modern Christians take for granted like the soul, were not even a thing back then.  There is evidence that the Jews believed in a bodily resurrection, with no idea of heaven being another place, but simply being Earth under the rulership of God being a place of pure goodness.  With the view that the afterlife is here on Earth, there is no need for ideas like heaven or hell.  There were even some who believed God was not immaterial and a spirit, but that the writings talk of a physical being, such as walking in the garden of Eden, showing parts of Himself to Moses, and the vague term "in the image of God" being a more physical description rather than just a moral one.  There is also evidence pointing to early believers not believing God has the omni traits. OT teachings about God's wrath, jealously, forgetting, not seeing the future, making mistakes or cruelty were accepted because God wasn't seen as perfect, just as immensely powerful and therefore the guy you want on your side.  

 

When I hear "Why don't you believe in God?" I have all of these competing thoughts and claims swirl around my head.  What description of God?  What other ideas are you bringing in under that one question?  If Christians can't agree amongst themselves on these basic foundational questions, then why should I as an outsider be able to come to a clear answer?  If in thousands of years of trying we still have not got any undisputed reasons to believe He exists, then I feel justified in saying no, come back to me once you sort out amongst yourselves as to what you are even claiming.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

When I was reading this, I recalled the evangelists that would come to my high school to mingle with the teens and invite them to Young Life. They never gave the whole story, just the "God loves you" part, which gets them involved in social activities with indoctrination blurbs at each one. Spoon fed until conversion and then into the big social circle and church groups and meetings, and being around those that seem to have some kind of spooky spiritual relationship (and not just an adult playing with an imaginary friend), and down the rabbit hole they go until the whole invisible everything seems real and felt, and all the Bible stories are taken as literal history and real commands from God through the Bible writers (and of course, they're all who they claim to be...)

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

4 hours ago, Wertbag said:

When I hear "Why don't you believe in God?" I have all of these competing thoughts and claims swirl around my head.  What description of God?  What other ideas are you bringing in under that one question?  If Christians can't agree amongst themselves on these basic foundational questions, then why should I as an outsider be able to come to a clear answer?  If in thousands of years of trying we still have not got any undisputed reasons to believe He exists, then I feel justified in saying no, come back to me once you sort out amongst yourselves as to what you are even claiming.

Right?? Where do you even begin with a question like this one? 

[pantheory]

On 11/24/2023 at 3:18 PM, Wertbag said:

When the question comes up "Why don't you believe in God?" it's actually a case that it's never just that one subject.  Believing in the bible God would mean in addition to the big guy, you are also accepting the existence of Jesus, angels, demons, heaven, hell and souls.  It's a single question but wide ranging in what beliefs would have to be incorporated.  It is rarely asked with the idea of a deist God in mind.

 

You do get Christians who are willing to drop various parts.  I found this behavior quite perplexing early on, as I thought there was some unity in thought on the basics at least, but no, not even the most foundational questions on existence are agreed upon.  Even "Did Jesus exist?" which I thought couldn't be discarded, does have some self-confessed Christians willing to sit on the fence.  "Well, whether he did or not is not important, it's the message and the path to God which should be focused on".  The bible literalists want to take it all as real world facts, while at the other extreme you have these progressive types who say the entire bible is metaphor, moral stories or ancient people trying to understand things beyond their ability to comprehend.  It's not fact but useful words of wisdom to shape your life around.  By this idea every single story, every miracle and every character can be hand waved away as just something used to teach us, and having discarded the entire bible these people still use the term Christian for themselves.

You now have people who are cultural Christians, such as the news reports on Ayaan Hirsi Ali rejecting atheism to become a Christian.  Once you read her reasoning for doing so, there is no mention of Jesus, the bible, belief in the resurrection or anything supernatural, instead she says it's better politically, it's better for morals and it's better to be onside with those you want to convince.  She is the least Christian you can be, but due to converting away from atheism she is getting massive media attention which was her sole purpose all along.

 

Do you believe in the global flood?  Well, it might have been local, or perhaps just a metaphor.  Do you believe in the resurrection?  Well, it might have been hyperbole or perhaps just a moral teaching.  Do you believe in hell?  Not as a place of fire, it only means separation from God or perhaps annihilation.  And then having seen the countless people wavering between possible choices you will have the Christian who states, "It is all so crystal clear, the only people who don't come to exactly my understanding must be intentionally taking it out of context or choosing to misunderstand it so they can ignore God's word".  So, thousands of years of debates, 60+ different translations of the bible, numerous denominations and no agreement on any subject, but you think you have the right answer and it's so obvious that everyone else is a fool for not instantly agreeing with you.  The arrogance of this position is astonishing and yet very common.

 

I've seen scholars talking about beliefs prior to the NT, and things which modern Christians take for granted like the soul, were not even a thing back then.  There is evidence that the Jews believed in a bodily resurrection, with no idea of heaven being another place, but simply being Earth under the rulership of God being a place of pure goodness.  With the view that the afterlife is here on Earth, there is no need for ideas like heaven or hell.  There were even some who believed God was not immaterial and a spirit, but that the writings talk of a physical being, such as walking in the garden of Eden, showing parts of Himself to Moses, and the vague term "in the image of God" being a more physical description rather than just a moral one.  There is also evidence pointing to early believers not believing God has the omni traits. OT teachings about God's wrath, jealously, forgetting, not seeing the future, making mistakes or cruelty were accepted because God wasn't seen as perfect, just as immensely powerful and therefore the guy you want on your side.  

 

When I hear "Why don't you believe in God?" I have all of these competing thoughts and claims swirl around my head.  What description of God?  What other ideas are you bringing in under that one question?  If Christians can't agree amongst themselves on these basic foundational questions, then why should I as an outsider be able to come to a clear answer?  If in thousands of years of trying we still have not got any undisputed reasons to believe He exists, then I feel justified in saying no, come back to me once you sort out amongst yourselves as to what you are even claiming.

 

I think it's funny concerning those so-called Christians who believe in heaven but not in hell, demons, or the devil. They want the good without the "bad." Satan is well-explained within the Bible. How can they rationalize their beliefs? My guess is that most of these folks are not church-going Christians.

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

19 minutes ago, pantheory said:

I think it's funny concerning those so-called Christians who believe in heaven but not in hell, demons, or the devil. They want the good without the "bad." Satan is well-explained within the Bible. How can they rationalize their beliefs? My guess is that most of these folks are not church-going Christians.

Are we opposing a 'concept' more than a 'religion' now? Perhaps it's best to ask the question "What is your definition of god, just so we're on the same page?" 

Maybe that would keep them talking about it long enough they'd forget they asked you the question. 

[Wertbag]

I wonder if there is a degree of ancient one-up-manship going on?  Our God loves us!  Oh yeah, well our God loves everyone!  Oh, yeah, well our God is love personified!

Well, our God made the world!  Yeah, but our God made the universe!  Oh yeah, well our God is the universe!  Well, our God killed all our enemies!  Yeah, well our God killed everyone!  Oh yeah, well our God killed everyone and then continued torturing them forever!

If God wasn't thought of as being all of the omni's, but those were added later in response to other claims of competing Gods being as powerful, then perhaps it is just the final step in the competition.  You can't be greater cos my God is perfect.  It doesn't seem that ancient Christians thought this way, being more accepting that God was not perfect, which explained the problem of evil and the messed up world.  A lot of the modern debates revolve around the incoherent nature of the omni traits, so perhaps in winning the "my Dad could beat up your Dad" competition they painted themselves into a corner.

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

Don't forget 'my cross outside my church is bigger than YOUR cross!"