Satan

[Wertbag]

One conversation that came up was regarding the many ways that Satan causes problems for the Christian narrative.  Now some Christians tell me they hold to the idea that Satan is not a being but is just a metaphor for sin/evil, while others tell me that Satan was cast into hell and there he remains, however the more common and classic view is of the immortal superbeing who is pure evil and a fallen angel who invisibly travels around the world causing suffering.  The first question that it raises is how does a being of pure goodness, like an angel, have evil within it?  Even if Satan did have pride or jealousy, how does that single negative trait turn into pure evil?  And of course, the question of why would a mere angel think it was possible to challenge God, even if he did manage to rally a whole swarm of friends to join him?

But say we accept the setup; we are then left with the question as to why did God allow Satan to survive?  It's not like God isn't known for killing his enemies, but now put His greatest foe before Him and He chooses to do nothing other than exile Satan to Earth?  Not only does He send him to Earth, but He leaves Satan with all of his superpowers and immortality.  Some punishment that was.  Doing so allows Satan to cause untold suffering and to destroy the lives of those who God loves.  Ah, but the apologist will say "It's all part of God's plan.  He uses evil to achieve His greater good", but then you are just left wondering what good was an all-powerful God unable to realise without unleashing His most powerful foe on the world?

 

There is also the problem of divine hiddenness, where God has decided not to reveal Himself in direct communication to the world.  But if God doesn't want people to know Him by direct communication, then Satan should want exactly that.  If Satan made himself known, by doing so he would prove God, which would then cause chaos and go against what God apparently wants.  

 

We still have no objective way to tell what effects are to be attributed to Satan, which are God's wrath, which are natural disasters, and which are caused by our own sin.  If a volcano erupts and wipes out a village, was that God being angry, Satan killing innocents, their immorality causing their downfall or was it just natural?  If we catch a serial killer, are we to say they are innocent because they were possessed, or would we be justified in saying its mental illness and they need to be locked away for everyone's safety.  Exorcisms have really gone out of fashion since doctors began understanding brain damage, seizures and illness.  Does medication suppress demonic possession, or as many people are now coming to see, is it simply never demons as the answer?

 

As per all Christian claims, we have no proof of demon's or Satan being anything or doing anything.  While we often hear of people asking why God doesn't do miracles like the bible says He did in the past, the same question can be asked of Satan.  If he has superpowers as claimed, then why not wipe out humanity or destroy the world which is God's greatest creation?

Well perhaps Christians are protected from Satan's power?  If the faithful were shielded in some way, then we should see those benefits, and yet Christians have the same life expectancy, same rates of illness, same chances of accidents and same levels of mental illness.  No sign of any group being divinely shielded from the suffering in our world. 

 

It makes little sense from so many directions, with no way to prove any of the claims being made.  It seems that it's an old idea trying to explain why mental illness is a thing, but that God of the gap's requirement has gone away as our knowledge has improved.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

A combination of being absolutely sure about the whole thing being true (whichever variation on the story), and then making excuses and laying blame and quoting scriptures and lavishing worship to make it feel like god is all in control of the daily chaos of life. So much energy poured daily into imaginary spirit worlds and fearing the imaginary war. That's fine for cosplay which can be fun, but so twisted when humans believe in it so much that they harm themselves and others because of the beliefs. It's staggering how much this still shapes our cultural/political world. 

[walterpthefirst]

Good work there, Wertbag.

 

This section prompts me to reply.

 

 

But say we accept the setup; we are then left with the question as to why did God allow Satan to survive?  It's not like God isn't known for killing his enemies, but now put His greatest foe before Him and He chooses to do nothing other than exile Satan to Earth?  Not only does He send him to Earth, but He leaves Satan with all of his superpowers and immortality.  Some punishment that was.  Doing so allows Satan to cause untold suffering and to destroy the lives of those who God loves.  Ah, but the apologist will say "It's all part of God's plan.  He uses evil to achieve His greater good", but then you are just left wondering what good was an all-powerful God unable to realise without unleashing His most powerful foe on the world?

 

 

Ok, so the apologist will say that leaving Satan to tempt Adam and Eve and bring ruin, disease and death into the world was all part of god's plan.  I agree.  It was.  We can see that precisely when we look at 2 Peter 4 and Jude 6.

 

 

 

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

 

 

And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

 

 

God imprisoned some of the angels who rebelled against him in heaven, binding them until judgement day, in a place where they could do no harm to any human being.  So why didn't he do this with Satan?  No need to destroy him.  Just imprison him where he can't lead Adam and Eve astray.  Simple.  A walk in the park (garden?) for god.

 

Now, why couldn't an all-seeing, all-knowing god just do that if he really wanted human beings to live lives free from disease, decrepitude and death?  Well, because he's infallible the reason for him allowing Satan to bring about the downfall of all creation must be because he planned for it to happen.  God wanted Adam and Eve to disobey him.  There's even evidence for this in the book of Romans.  In chapter 8 : 20 and 21 and in chapter 11 : 32.

 

 

20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 

21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

 

 

God subjected his own creation to frustration.  Not Adam.  Not Eve.  Not Satan.  God did it.

 

 

32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

 

Not happy with letting the entire human race choose of their own free will to accept or reject him god violated our free will and made all of us disobedient to him.  Why?  So that he could claim the glory, praise and adoration for having mercy on us when we were all disobedient sinners.  He contaminated us all with sin and then offered himself (as Jesus) up as the cure to the very infection he pumped into our DNA.  Way to go, big man!

 

So, let me see if I've got this right...

If I'm writhing in agony and dying by inches of a terrible disease and a doctor cures me completely, then I should be duly grateful to him for saving me from suffering and death.  Ok, that makes sense.  Yes, I'd be very, very grateful indeed.  I'd owe that medic my life.  

 

But what I then found out that this very same quack had infected me with the disease in the first place?  

 

And then I found out that he did this just to grab the glory, kudos and prestige of curing me?

 

 

Still think I'd want anything to do with that evil, calculating sadist?

 

 

 

 

Walter.

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

There is certainly no logic to any of it.

[Wertbag]

In addition, I saw the point raised today that if Satan and demons are in the world and with the ability to perform miracles (most Christians seem to think that the various magic workers would get their power from demons, as it seems there are only two possible sources and it obviously wasn't God) then it becomes almost impossible to know if any story, miracle or event is caused by God or Satan/demons.  Hell, even the resurrection could be faked.  Satan may not have the power to raise the dead, but how about appearing as a dead man?  Would it not make sense that the various OT verses that horrify our modern sensibilities would make more sense coming from a being of pure evil rather than one of good?  God says do not kill, then goes on to say kill witches, heretics, unruly children and sabbath breakers, could this contradiction not be that the two rules were given by different beings?

Satan is said to be omni-present, invisible, immortal, immensely powerful and able to change minds.  Could a Christian really say that such a being wouldn't have corrupted any of the numerous books of the bible?  With 40+ authors, numerous scribes and translators, could he have not influenced any of them to write the wrong thing?  Could John's different take on Jesus being God not have been influenced by Satan in order to corrupt the church with a blasphemy? 

The only defense I saw of this idea was the claim that Satan couldn't do good, so it wasn't possible for him to heal.  But if any aliment was caused by demonic possession, then Satan telling his boys to leave would achieve a healing effect in appearance.

 

It becomes practically impossible to trust anything by anyone if you really take Satan seriously.  Even the bible says, "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." or "But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves." or "Her prophets whitewash these deeds for them by false visions and lying divinations. They say, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says’—when the LORD has not spoken."

Whether those false prophets are all demonic, or if they include lying humans and con-men, it just further adds to the reasons to doubt everything about the biblical teachings.