pantheory Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 Of course here, we are concerned with the problems with Christianity. But to a larger extent, will all the religions of the world eventually be stamped out like Greek Mythology? Concerning Christianity and religions in general, communism was against the belief in any religion. This of course put a big dent in religious beliefs in communist countries because religion of any kind was considered a form of stupidity by the young people educated in those systems. But underneath it all. religion still prevails in some of the older folk, as well as a few of the young people of communism. After all, religion makes promises, and "Pascal's Wager" says that the belief and practices of Christianity are a good bet. As an atheist I believe that all religions are a bad bet for the same reasons why believing in Greek Mythology is a bad bet for obvious reasons. What do you think? https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted January 9 Super Moderator Share Posted January 9 The christianity practiced today by fundamentalist evangelicals would be damn near alien to a medieval peasant in 1247CE. The christianity of a thousand years from now will likely be just as foreign to us today. Like any virus, it will mutant as necessary for survival. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
older Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 My position is that religions will always exist because they are a salve to the fundamental human emotion of fear. Fear is part of our evolution and those who can't deal with it use religion as a means of coping with it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☆ moxieflux66 ☆ Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 On 1/9/2024 at 12:19 PM, pantheory said: will all the religions of the world eventually be stamped out like Greek Mythology? On 1/9/2024 at 4:53 PM, older said: My position is that religions will always exist because they are a salve to the fundamental human emotion of fear. Fear is part of our evolution and those who can't deal with it use religion as a means of coping with it. Perhaps religion will be stamped out when and if we find a better mechanism for coping with the 'problem' of fear. On 1/9/2024 at 12:19 PM, pantheory said: communism was against the belief in any religion. Why did it not work then as a replacement for religion? Wouldn't it follow that the 'state' in its allegedly equal distribution of goods and services not create less fear and more contentment? I've always wondered.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantheory Posted March 26 Author Share Posted March 26 On 3/26/2024 at 11:40 AM, moxieflux66 said: Perhaps religion will be stamped out when and if we find a better mechanism for coping with the 'problem' of fear. Why did it not work then as a replacement for religion? Wouldn't it follow that the 'state' in its allegedly equal distribution of goods and services not create less fear and more contentment? I've always wondered.... Communism did work to a certain extent concerning stamping out religion. Maybe half or even more of the people in China and Russia are atheists, not that I would want or vote for such a system that would ban religion, even though I consider the belief in any religion as simple foolishness -- but everyone should have the right to their own beliefs IMHO, especially if the expression of those beliefs does not hurt anyone including the believer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Weezer ◊ Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 They should have know that when you tell people they CAN'T do something, it actually encourages it with a lot of people. I'm not sure how long religion will be with us, but discouraging higher education will prolong it's life. And that is what most right wingers do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Krowb ◊ Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 I feel that religion, in some fashion, will be with us for the long haul. Even "athiest" countries have been unable to stamp out religion, it's much more effective to co-opt it. Religion claims to answer a question no other system (government/political/economic/societal) can - the afterlife. The better/worse the promise of the afterlife, the more impetus to achieve/avoid it for the believer. People are simply not 100% rational, and that's not a bad thing, just a fact of the human condition. The same irrational passions that can drive beautiful works of art, including music, can be stirred by religious ideas as well. Religion has an almost peculiar tendency to bring out the best or worst that humanity has to offer on a large scale. Political movements only wish they could create zealots on the same scale as a even a moderately successful religion. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Krowb ◊ Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 On 3/26/2024 at 4:00 PM, Weezer said: I'm not sure how long religion will be with us, but discouraging higher education will prolong it's life. And that is what most right wingers do. Can't recall the exact wording, but a pastor of my youth something along these lines: "a church that encourages its youth to gain degrees, empties its pews by degrees" The sermon of course was regarding the worldiness of academia and why we needed to safeguard our kids to only christian institutions, but it also exposed something more fundamental; education, writ large, was regarded by my church as hostile to religious belief. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☆ moxieflux66 ☆ Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 On 3/26/2024 at 1:00 PM, Weezer said: They should have know that when you tell people they CAN'T do something, it actually encourages it with a lot of people. You mean like avoiding sexual sins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Weezer ◊ Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 2 hours ago, moxieflux66 said: You mean like avoiding sexual sins? Ha, those seem to happen regardless. Sexual desire is even stronger than the fear of hell!! 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ Fuego ♦ Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 I think if we can lose the default respect and honor our country gives to the cult, that will help unplug it. More and more it looks like a completely alien thing, which is good. But even evangelicals are seeing that and speaking out against it. Some lose their positions by doing that, others come from less fundamentalist groups and criticize the complete lack of the teachings of Jesus in many churches now. There will always be cults. Humans yearn for magic powers or at least for someone else that has them. I read a blurb this evening about a couple that killed a few people including kids because they thought they had demons. Even when I was in church, I knew of a few small cult groups led by manipulative guys that implied they had special knowledge or in-crowd aire about them. Even one popular Greek teacher I had briefly said that joining his class was like getting married, and he expected us to show up and have done our homework and regard it with utter seriousness. That's how cults start, a popular guy insisting on being a guru/daddy/husband figure instead of a professor. The popular Shen Yun performance dance team is a front for the Falun Gong Chinese cult. So cults come in a variety of packaging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nontheistpilgrim Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 On 3/27/2024 at 9:51 PM, Krowb said: Can't recall the exact wording, but a pastor of my youth something along these lines: "a church that encourages its youth to gain degrees, empties its pews by degrees" The sermon of course was regarding the worldiness of academia and why we needed to safeguard our kids to only christian institutions, but it also exposed something more fundamental; education, writ large, was regarded by my church as hostile to religious belief. My father used to say "Fill the pulpit with degrees and by degrees you empty the church". Iroinically he would be proud, I think, that I became the first person in our family to get a degree and then go on to get a higher degree. When I was researching the new charismatic churches in the 80's I was frequently surprised by the number of people I met who were highly educated. I suppose their vibrant worship (eek) was some sort of outlet for stress. It is this fact that makes me think that religion will always be with us. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 2 Super Moderator Share Posted April 2 10 hours ago, Fuego said: That's how cults start, a popular guy insisting on being a guru/daddy/husband figure instead of a professor. I feel attacked. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wertbag Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 Over the years I think my guess on this subject has changed. I would have thought that religion could never die, but that view is mostly looking back at history and not forward to what is potentially possible. With all organised religions being reliant on their beliefs being taught to the next generation, it would be possible for that teaching to go away and hence the religion with it. Just as there are countless religions that have faded to nothing over time, the same pattern could repeat with the religions of today. The difference between now and the past is the ability for everyone to become educated and for information and ideas to spread around the world. Our knowledge and ability to transfer that knowledge is greater than ever before, and I wouldn't be surprised to find this change allows us to remove religions almost completely. The most religious are the less educated, so as education becomes cheaper, easier, remote and well communicated, it will impact to the point of breaking more and more people away from superstitious beliefs. Each person who breaks away is then a family not teaching the next generation, and hence it grows. You may still have "spiritual" people, or people holding onto a vague deist type god, but it is much harder to build an organisation and religion around such vague terms. So maybe not 100% elimination but reduced to insignificance. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Weezer ◊ Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 9 hours ago, Wertbag said: You may still have "spiritual" people, or people holding onto a vague deist type god, but it is much harder to build an organisation and religion around such vague terms. So maybe not 100% elimination but reduced to insignificance. Thanks for posting that. You are a great thinker! I see the potential in what you are saying. Please allow me to brainstorm. Are we drifting in the direction of something like "hero worship". Something more earth centered, rather than "pie in the sky magic"? HA! We already have a Trump god. But seriously, perhaps we could drift in the direction of evidence based ideology, or philosophy. Something more positive like Buddhism, or the similar "love neighbor as self" concept. However, I understand Buddha never meant to be a god, but people made a god of him. It seems we have a strong need to have "heros" and "saviors". And some people like flashy, pompus, self confident leaders who promise them the moon. Or heaven in the hereafter. How could we get people behind education for critical thinking?? Behind generating positive mental and social energy?? The desire to think critically about the gigantic volume of info on the internet?? Some of it uttely garbage. I don't believe censorship is the answer. Also, how to diminish the "original sin" concept that has contributed to our mental and social problems?? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Krowb ◊ Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 1 hour ago, Wertbag said: With all organised religions being reliant on their beliefs being taught to the next generation, it would be possible for that teaching to go away and hence the religion with it. I think we can safely say that whatever the actual beliefs of the early Jesus followers, this is exactly what happened to those teachings as they morphed into the various Christian doctrines up till today. Weezer makes a good point, even in communist societies, people hung pictures of Mao and Stalin in place of Jesus or Krishna. It morphs, and would be nice to have it morph into something more useful and conducive to human flourishing - but then it loses its edge of an "in group" with "special knowledge". A tough nut for sure. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Weezer ◊ Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 I have thought along these lines for several years. I keep coming back to this point. To see positive change, people will need to start thinkng critically. Thinking of the long term, big picture of what is in the best interest of life in general for the whole planet. Not instant gratification, instant wealth, power, etc. Basically trying to keep our macho egos inflated. A Jewish friend of mine used to say, "the difference between the rich and the poor is that the rich plan for a life time. The poor plan for Saturday night." That concept applies to our "world" situation today. We continue to think short term, make fun of, disrespect and kill each other, and destroy the planet, and complain because things are so terrible. Insanity is continuing to do the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. Until we start thinking long term, and spreading positive energy, and drop the degrading original sin thinking, we will continue to flounder. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
older Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 Weezer, you make great points. I’m not as optimistic as Wertbag. There have been well-educated cultures in history that have succumbed to powerful forces that have destroyed the knowledge those cultures were based upon, and I don’t see that, electronic communications notwithstanding, we are any different. Over the eons, various indigenous cultures created rich and successful life systems based on the environments they lived in but those systems, which were thoroughly satisfactory to those people, were wiped out by greedy and powerful forces who were ignorant and/or afraid of the values therein. For example, around 240 BC Eratostheses calculated the circumference of the Earth to within about ten percent, as well as the axial tilt. But that knowledge was heresy to many later societies. The antikythera mechanism reveals the skill and knowledge of early celestial observers; knowledge that was buried for several thousand years. The library at Alexandria, a repository of inestimable knowledge, suffered during a purge of intellectuals in 145 BC and was burned by Julius Caesar in 48 BC. In later years, further raids and vandalism destroyed it completely. Also on the list is the fate of Galileo, sentenced to a lifetime of confinement because he refused to repudiate the heliocentric model of the solar system. So while Wertbag’s hypothesis, that in the modern world education and knowledge is easier to gain, could discount the examples of history, here we are today with book bans, anti-vaccine moves legislated into law, and the always present moves across the globe to silence those who disagree with the power structure. The systems that permit the spread of knowledge, whether modern or ancient, are also easily used to spread fear and ignorance, both of which we agree are at the root of religion. Those who prey upon the innate fears of our species will use those means to gain power and control. So while it took several hundred years to destroy the library at Alexandria, today’s electronic methods can and may enable a similar fate but in orders of magnitude less time. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Weezer ◊ Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 11 minutes ago, Weezer said: Until we start thinking long term, and spreading positive energy, and drop the degrading original sin thinking, we will continue to flounder. Another thought along these lines. People think getting rid of religion will solve our problems. Not necessariy so. We are social creatures! This is an extremely important thing to remember. A sense of community, belonging and feeling worthwhile is needed for healthy social functioning. Thinking way back into our past, when communities expanded beyond the point that there was regular personal contact with each other on a fairly frequent basis, something else was needed to hold people together in a somewhat civil manner. Common ideology, purpose, and direction served to hold them, and eventually us, together. Authoritarian religion has served that purpose for ages. It has created "tribes" with common beliefs. But problems develop when these tribes are thrown together and have conflicting ideas. Or when tribes decide the other tribes and their beliefs are dangerous. But if you just take away the common ideas that have bonded them together, and no new ideology is available to bind them all together, you still have chaos. It is every man/woman for him/herself. And as the saying goes, "no man (human) is an island". Something is needed to bind the masses together. Something to help people feel they belong and are worthwhile. If traditional fear based authoritarian religion no longer works, what will work?? Where will the positive energy and encouragement for humans to be at their best, and encourage others to do the same, come from? Just getting rid of the religion only leaves a vacuum for other immediately available, and perhaps dangerous, ideology to be sucked into it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Weezer ◊ Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 1 hour ago, older said: but those systems, which were thoroughly satisfactory to those people, were wiped out by greedy and powerful forces who were ignorant and/or afraid of the values therein. Although they arent as advanced, what you said reminds me of the Hadza tribe in Africa. They have lived in a virtual "garden of Eden" for thousands of years, very peacefully, and with no "Holy One" to guide them. They are an eglitarian society. But are being squessed out by modern development of the land. It has been years since I read the story about them in National Geographic. They may be extinct by now. Sad! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
older Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 1 hour ago, Weezer said: Although they arent as advanced, .... Something to think about: a lifetime ago, in a freshman history class, the prof. began the first session by asking if man has made any progress over the eons. The resulting debate was lively. My position was, and remains, that man does not advance or make progress, but rather moves laterally. Man creates new tools, new methods and perhaps new ways of thinking, but in doing so abandons others that work well and trades one set of problems for another. I was reminded of this recently during our road trip across the southwest from California to Oklahoma for the eclipse. We stopped at several native American sites and museums to learn more about those cultures and were fascinated with how they created a rich lifestyle, finding usefulness in plants and animals that we overlook; produced beautiful and sensitive art, music and dance; devised medicinal treatments that worked; built comfortable homes; and loved their families just as other humans do. For some tribes, the amassing of personal possessions was looked down upon as a sign of greed, and their world view of their place on the planet seems to be more compatible with our ultimate survival than ours. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Weezer ◊ Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 39 minutes ago, older said: and their world view of their place on the planet seems to be more compatible with our ultimate survival than ours. Very true. one thing I thought was wise about the Hadza was that when 2 people came to a standoff about an issue and could not resolve it, one would go live with another clan in the area. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☆ moxieflux66 ☆ Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 7 hours ago, Weezer said: Also, how to diminish the "original sin" concept that has contributed to our mental a social problems?? Make prostitution legal 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wertbag Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 On 4/25/2024 at 4:09 PM, moxieflux66 said: Make prostitution legal Here in NZ they've already done that. Haven't used those particular services, but voted in favour of the law change. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 26 Super Moderator Share Posted April 26 On 4/25/2024 at 12:09 AM, moxieflux66 said: Make prostitution legal Pimps who don't refer to themselves as "whore lords" are really missing an opportunity. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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