How?

[BAS]

Hello All! May all be well with you!

 

I find it difficult, if not impossible, to love a God who is torturing billions of humans, some of whom I knew and loved. I find it difficult, if not impossible, to love a God who allows so much evil and suffering. I find it very weird that, seemingly, we humans make our lives and the lives of others better more than He might. I find odd that CPS saves more children from abuse than He seems to.

 

On top of that, I do not see how to keep all the commandments of the New Testament enough every second of every day. 

I think I want to be a Christian, but this is silly.

 

Has anyone else ever felt or thought this way before?

 

Thanks,

BAS

[TheRedneckProfessor]

The god of the bible simply cannot exist as he is described.  That much is obvious for the reasons you've already pointed out, among many others.  Nothing wrong with wanting to be a christian, if that is what works for you; but the glaring contradictions between scripture and reality are simply too numerous and too vast for me to try to just "believe anyway."  I'd rather have a painful truth than a comfortable lie, myself.

[TABA]

2 hours ago, BAS said:

 

I find it difficult, if not impossible, to love a God who is torturing billions of humans, some of whom I knew and loved. I find it difficult, if not impossible, to love a God who allows so much evil and suffering.

 

2 hours ago, BAS said:

I think I want to be a Christian, but this is silly

 

Hello again BAS!  In this and your previous posts you have pointed out some of the great problems with Christianity, yet you seem to be attracted to the religion and are maybe trying to find the right version to adopt.

 

What attracts you to Christianity?  Or do you feel it is true whether you like it or not and that it is somehow in your best interest to be a Christian?   You seem to be conflicted.  

[◊ Weezer ◊]

8 hours ago, TABA said:

 

What attracts you to Christianity? 

 

I was going to ask the same question.  

 

[BAS]

Some of that which attracts me to Christianity is the unconditional love, the supposed guarantee of gaining heaven, the supposed guarantee of avoiding hell, and supposedly, it is the truth that can be confirmed.

 

I admit that I do not need religion or spirituality to better my life. I suppose that I feel afraid of death and misfortune and quite lonesome. 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

57 minutes ago, BAS said:

I admit that I do not need religion or spirituality to better my life. I suppose that I feel afraid of death and misfortune and quite lonesome. 

Thank you for that! I greatly suspect the majority of people facing the same feelings you are would do well to think about those things too. Fear of death is probably bigger than we realize. Coming to grips with it was hard for me too. Being lonely is a serious problem that I think the church exploits to get members (and their money!!!). 

That is NOT unconditional love! 

[BAS]

Yes, you're welcome. When I consider people making improvements to their life, big or small, without either, I know, for a fact, that neither is necessary. When my non-religious, non-spiritual friends or acquaintances forgive someone or open a door for another, they accomplish either just fine. I would daresay that Elon Musk and other wealthy persons, even of lesser financial success, are proof positive that neither is required for humanitarianism.

 

Furthermore, I think that the Historical Method soundly rebuts, not necessarily refutes, the entire Bible. I think anyone who evaluates simple historical claims with the Historical Method does not reasonably conclude that Elvis or Tupac is still alive. However, it seems that the Burden of Proof is lowered for the extraordinary claims, which require extraordinary or sufficient evidence, for the ordinary or extraordinary claims of the Bible.

 

Moreover, I do not think that fear or loneliness should lead one to think that the HIstorical Method does not soundly rebut the Bible. For example, I do not either should lead one to conclude that Joshua fought the Battle of Jericho. 

 

But maybe I am crazy? 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Being different from the general population does NOT make you crazy. 

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, BAS said:

Some of that which attracts me to Christianity is the unconditional love, the supposed guarantee of gaining heaven, the supposed guarantee of avoiding hell, and supposedly, it is the truth that can be confirmed.

 

I admit that I do not need religion or spirituality to better my life. I suppose that I feel afraid of death and misfortune and quite lonesome. 

 

Hello BAS,

 

 

Unconditional love, you say?  That's one of the foundational tenets of the Christian faith, isn't it?  The belief that we have gone astray, sinned and are guilty and that in his unconditional love for us Jesus died to put that right.  By his act of unconditional love we can avoid hell, enter heaven and know the truth.

 

That's what I was taught for the many years I was a born-again evangelical Christian.  That Adam and Eve freely chose to disobey god.  That everyone freely chooses to disobey god.  That you and I choose to disobey god of our own free wills.  That were are all guilty of our own free choice.  

 

Is that your experience too?  Is that what you were taught as a Christian?  That god gave us all free will and we misuse it to disobey him?

 

 

Thanks,

 

Walter.

 

 

[BAS]

My mother did send or force me to a Protestant church, but most of my learning of Christianity was self-research. Some denominations or interpretations of Christianity do not say that we have free will, at least to be saved. I think they say that we have some basic free will; ie, we can choose to drink coffee, tea, or neither.

 

I have heard the idea that Adam and Eve freely choose the fruit, yes.

[walterpthefirst]

14 hours ago, BAS said:

My mother did send or force me to a Protestant church, but most of my learning of Christianity was self-research. Some denominations or interpretations of Christianity do not say that we have free will, at least to be saved. I think they say that we have some basic free will; ie, we can choose to drink coffee, tea, or neither.

 

I have heard the idea that Adam and Eve freely choose the fruit, yes.

 

Well, if you're interested BAS, the topic of free will in Christianity has been debated, on and off, for some time in this forum.

 

Most recently (just a few days ago, in fact) it was discussed here...

 

 

If you don't want to read the two pages of this thread you could cut to the chase and go directly to the second page where last Saturday, at 08:47 I've made the argument that god actively violated the free will of every human being to make us all guilty in his sight.  He did this because he wanted to have mercy on us and as the judge of the human race he can't have mercy on the innocent - only the guilty.

 

So, using scripture I argue that god forced his will upon us and forced us to become guilty so that he could have mercy on us through the blood of Jesus Christ.

 

When an overwhelmingly powerful person forces their will upon a weaker person who cannot resist, is that really unconditional love?

 

Please get back to me if there's anything you need clarifying or if you have further questions.

 

 

Thanks,

 

Walter.

[TABA]

Hello again BAS,

 

So it seems you are both attracted to and repelled by Christianity and its god.  That makes sense: the idea of a loving father watching over us, the idea of bliss in Heaven after this life is over, those alone have made Christianity very successful.  
 

But you have also seen the horrible ugly side of Christian theology, especially the indifference of its god to so much suffering and evil.  
There are many posts in this these forums making the very sound claim that if this god exists, he is evil and sadistic.  Sometimes in making these points, the writer may give the impression that they assume this evil god is real.  But that’s not so.  We in this community not only overwhelmingly reject Christianity, but we are confident that its god does not exist.  There are excellent reasons for believing this, and I’m proud to say that these forums are filled with many sound arguments.  It IS possible to be confident, beyond reasonable doubt, that God, Satan and Hell are ideas made up by humans when trying to explain why the world exists and how the world works - and why humans behave the way they do, both the good and the evil of which we are capable.

 

Giving up on Christianity does not mean life has no meaning or that you lose any and all support for living a good and happy life.  Far from it!  Not only do you give up beliefs that can cause great anxiety, guilt and fear, but there are other much better ideas - not religions or supernatural beliefs - that do much better than Christianity in supporting a happy and meaningful life.  For example there are people here who have completely rejected Christianity and instead adopted principles and ideas of Buddhism, becoming much happier and at peace as a result.  
 

We can help you in various ways, BAS.  Firstly we can welcome you and make you feel at home here, able to share your thoughts and ask questions.  We can help you become confident that Christianity is not true and may safely be rejected.  And we can give you resources for living a better life without that religion or its god.  Many have gone before you on this journey, myself included, and we are eager to help so that you can gain what we have gained.  By coming here and joining this community you’ve taken serious steps away from christianity.  You are on the right path, my friend.   

[Casualfanboy16]

2 hours ago, TABA said:

Hello again BAS,

 

So it seems you are both attracted to and repelled by Christianity and its god.  That makes sense: the idea of a loving father watching over us, the idea of bliss in Heaven after this life is over, those alone have made Christianity very successful.  
 

But you have also seen the horrible ugly side of Christian theology, especially the indifference of its god to so much suffering and evil.  
There are many posts in this these forums making the very sound claim that if this god exists, he is evil and sadistic.  Sometimes in making these points, the writer may give the impression that they assume this evil god is real.  But that’s not so.  We in this community not only overwhelmingly reject Christianity, but we are confident that its god does not exist.  There are excellent reasons for believing this, and I’m proud to say that these forums are filled with many sound arguments.  It IS possible to be confident, beyond reasonable doubt, that God, Satan and Hell are ideas made up by humans when trying to explain why the world exists and how the world works - and why humans behave the way they do, both the good and the evil of which we are capable.

 

Giving up on Christianity does not mean life has no meaning or that you lose any and all support for living a good and happy life.  Far from it!  Not only do you give up beliefs that can cause great anxiety, guilt and fear, but there are other much better ideas - not religions or supernatural beliefs - that do much better than Christianity in supporting a happy and meaningful life.  For example there are people here who have completely rejected Christianity and instead adopted principles and ideas of Buddhism, becoming much happier and at peace as a result.  
 

We can help you in various ways, BAS.  Firstly we can welcome you and make you feel at home here, able to share your thoughts and ask questions.  We can help you become confident that Christianity is not true and may safely be rejected.  And we can give you resources for living a better life without that religion or its god.  Many have gone before you on this journey, myself included, and we are eager to help so that you can gain what we have gained.  By coming here and joining this community you’ve taken serious steps away from christianity.  You are on the right path, my friend.   

I second TABA on this! I joined here July of last year. This journey has been difficult, but with their help this whole deconversion journey is a bit more bearable. My experience here at Ex-C has been excellent thus far. I still have a ways to go yet, but trust me. This forum and its members have been of great help and benefit. This place is very valuable to me, and I hope it will be for you as well.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

8 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

When an overwhelmingly powerful person forces their will upon a weaker person who cannot resist, is that really unconditional love?

 

 

Very good point.  That is the sign of a sadistic person.  NOT a loving person or god.

[pantheory]

On 2/19/2024 at 7:57 AM, BAS said:

Hello All! May all be well with you!

 

I find it difficult, if not impossible, to love a God who is torturing billions of humans, some of whom I knew and loved. I find it difficult, if not impossible, to love a God who allows so much evil and suffering. I find it very weird that, seemingly, we humans make our lives and the lives of others better more than He might. I find odd that CPS saves more children from abuse than He seems to.

 

On top of that, I do not see how to keep all the commandments of the New Testament enough every second of every day. 

I think I want to be a Christian, but this is silly.

 

Has anyone else ever felt or thought this way before?

 

Thanks,

BAS

 

After all is said and done, it's all very simple. Religions and ideas of God or gods are based upon myth and none can be backed up by scientific evidence. The old testament is of a God who prefers Jews over all others, and is vengeful. The new testament is of a loving god preaching an imminent apocalypse, and socialism -- general education not considered important. Religion is mostly for non-thinkers IMO.