The Vesuvius Challenge

[walterpthefirst]

https://scrollprize.org/

 

 

According to the writers of a Scientific American article on this challenge, we are on the verge of a rediscovery of the ancient world as great as that which occurred in the Renaissance.  And we have a combination of computer-controlled X-ray tomography and AI to thank for this.  Totally carbonized scrolls from a library in Herculaneum, which was overwhelmed by the pyroclastic flows from Mount Vesuvius are now starting to give up their long-held secrets.

 

For the first time in nearly 2,000 years human eyes can once again read the words of (possibly) Philodemus about the philosophy of pleasure.

 

So, apart from this being a triumph of human ingenuity and technical skill, what does this mean for our understanding of ancient history?  Well, seven plays by Aeschylus have come down to us, here in the 21st century.  But we know that the playwright's output amounted to at least ten times that number.  Now, we may discover them among the 1,500 scrolls of the library in that Roman villa that was destroyed by the volcano in A.D. 79.  And much, much more.

 

On the back of our new-found ability to look inside these previously unreadable scrolls we can look forward to applying this technique to other ancient documents from elsewhere.  

 

In 1993, a cache of 140 carbonized papyrus scrolls were discovered in a Byzantine church in Petra, Jordan.  They are estimated to date from the 6th century of the Christian era.  And they were also considered to be totally unreadable.   Tens of thousands of fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls have yet to be analysed because they hopelessly stuck together.  It's also been suggested that many scrolls, papyri and ancient codices that were deemed to be 'lost' because they are so badly damaged can now be brought back to 'life' and seen again by modern eyes.

 

Reading the Scientific American article as an Ex-Christian I wondered if the deluge of new findings that is anticipated to follow will reveal any fresh insights into the Bible?  I would imagine so.  Will new copies of god's infallible and complete Word be found that are missing certain Books or with new Prophets and new Gospels?  Who knows?

 

Keep watching this space!

 

 

Thanks,

 

Walter.

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

Do give us updates on this Walter! This sounds exciting! 

[freshstart]

5 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

Reading the Scientific American article as an Ex-Christian I wondered if the deluge of new findings that is anticipated to follow will reveal any fresh insights into the Bible?  I would imagine so.

Ha.  Not for current-day fundamentalist Christians.  Any insights that shed new light, add to, or take away from even the most mundane things in the bible (let along earth-shattering revelations) will be swiftly rejected and then spawn conspiracy theories about how [insert here whatever group is disliked or distrusted: government, scientists, etc.] is trying to dismantle Christianity under the "pretense" of technological discoveries.  For everyone else (i.e. non-fundamentalists), this is pretty exciting! Luckily fundies are a dying breed, even if they do still hold political sway.

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

3 hours ago, freshstart said:

Luckily fundies are a dying breed, even if they do still hold political sway.

[Wertbag]

I have heard the copying of the text was only one problem, the other big one being the lack of ancient language translaters. Hard to learn with a limited market. There are apparently hundreds of texts found that no one has had a chance to read. They say the next big discovery is more likely sitting in a box out the back of a museum, than buried in a cave.

[walterpthefirst]

You mean like this, Wertbag?

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

Ok, seriously tho' Wertbag, I do take your point.

 

 

However, AI may well solve the first issue you raise.  Once a LLM (Large Language Model) AI program is taught the fundamentals of any language, after a number of iterations and input corrections from human overseers it should be able to tackle Latin, Koine, Aramaic, Hittite or Meroitic with increasing accuracy and sophistication.  All that's needed is the will and the funding to make this happen.

 

The second issue is a bit trickier however.  What about the undiscovered stuff?  Well, perhaps when the deciphering of otherwise hopelessly corrupted ancient texts becomes commonplace there will be a shift in the public and scientific consciousness.  Alerted to the fact that scrolls and papyri that were once considered lost are now being recovered and read surely some enterprising archaeologist or scholar would put two and two together?

 

"Let's go back to our warehouses, archives, museums and private collections with the express intent of finding things that have been overlooked or forgotten."

 

Or...

 

"Let's go back to those tombs, mausolea, monasteries and caves with the express intent of finding things that have been overlooked or forgotten."

 

Or even...

 

"Let's expand our excavations of Pompeii, Karnak and similar sites in the hope of finding more ancient texts.  Let's also scan the seabed for sunken galleys and triremes to find their logbooks and maps."

 

That's my take on the matter, Wertbag.

 

 

But on the flip side of something I mentioned yesterday, there could be a few surprises in store for us, the Ex-Christians.  What if ex-Biblical sources confirming the existence and life of Jesus Christ are found?  That would surely change the current status quo here.  Maybe Christian apologists, emboldened by what they see as evidence confirming their faith, will start visiting us in greater numbers?  Who knows?

 

 

Thanks,

 

Walter.

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

And it could be similar to what has happened with the Sumerian cunneiform tablets with the older than the Bible stories of the creation of man and the "flood".  Most common people don't even know they exist.  They are stored away in vaults, and some bought by wealthy people who are basicallly sitting on them and allowing limited access.  The powers that be do not want information getting out that differ with the present interpretation of the Bible.  And the Sumerian stories definitely have a different twist to them than the Bible.

[walterpthefirst]

8 hours ago, Weezer said:

And it could be similar to what has happened with the Sumerian cunneiform tablets with the older than the Bible stories of the creation of man and the "flood".  Most common people don't even know they exist.  They are stored away in vaults, and some bought by wealthy people who are basicallly sitting on them and allowing limited access.  The powers that be do not want information getting out that differ with the present interpretation of the Bible.  And the Sumerian stories definitely have a different twist to them than the Bible.

 

 

Then the status quo in this forum will remain unchanged, Weezer.

 

We can demolish any argument any Christian apologist puts forward so if the powers that be want to keep the rest of the world in ignorance then nothing here changes.

 

Our mission, goal and resources remain unchanged.

 

 

Thanks,

 

Walter.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

16 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Then the status quo in this forum will remain unchanged, Weezer.

 

Our mission, goal and resources remain unchanged.

 

The status quo idea is yours.  I don't see your point.

[walterpthefirst]

My point about the status quo between we Ex-Christians and any Christian apologists, here in this forum, was based upon my earlier comments, Weezer.

 

 

Reading the Scientific American article as an Ex-Christian I wondered if the deluge of new findings that is anticipated to follow will reveal any fresh insights into the Bible?  I would imagine so.  Will new copies of god's infallible and complete Word be found that are missing certain Books or with new Prophets and new Gospels?  Who knows?

 

 

But on the flip side of something I mentioned yesterday, there could be a few surprises in store for us, the Ex-Christians.  What if ex-Biblical sources confirming the existence and life of Jesus Christ are found?  That would surely change the current status quo here.  Maybe Christian apologists, emboldened by what they see as evidence confirming their faith, will start visiting us in greater numbers?  Who knows?

 

 

In the first scenario the status quo would change, with the Christian apologist's position being weakened by new evidence against the authenticity of the bible.

 

In the second, even with new, extra-biblical evidence confirming the existence of Jesus, the status quo in this forum would not change.  That's because we already have enough evidence to hand to demolish any argument that a Christian apologist could present.  New evidence for the authenticity of the bible would make no difference.  We can already demonstrate that it is not the Word of god but the words of men.

 

That was the status quo I was referring to, Weezer.  The one that exists in this forum, between the Ex-Christians and the Christian apologists.  I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear before.

 

 

Thanks,

 

 

Walter.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Thanks for the effort.

[mwc]

On 3/13/2024 at 11:32 AM, walterpthefirst said:

Reading the Scientific American article as an Ex-Christian I wondered if the deluge of new findings that is anticipated to follow will reveal any fresh insights into the Bible?  I would imagine so.  Will new copies of god's infallible and complete Word be found that are missing certain Books or with new Prophets and new Gospels?  Who knows?

     I'm going to bet against you here.

 

     I can't imagine anything having to do with the bible, especially the new religion, coming out of Herculaneum.  What will come from there will hopefully be copies of lost, but still known, documents (and that seems to be what might be the case given what had emerged so far).

 

     The texts from Petra have been published in 4 or 5 volumes and they are, by and large, the operations of a rich Byzantine family.

 

     Remember that before now they have unrolled these charred scrolls with varying levels of success although the end result always wound up destroying the scroll and, worse, the text written on them.  One of the earliest attempts worked to unwrap the scroll but the text disappeared almost immediately upon being exposed.  After they discovered this they would unwrap the scroll and copy the text knowing this would happen.  I believe the remnants of these are in the Vatican Museums (but I could have this wrong).

 

     Anyhow, my point is that so far the library contains what is anticipated to be in a Roman library.  It would be quite the find to discover an esoteric text like something from the bible especially from what we think of as the new testament or anything talking about those events.

 

     And, to quickly add, the DSS would be the only place to find anything related to the bible but since there's already disagreements between it and the Masoretic texts anything new here will likely only be interesting to academics.

 

     So while it's an interesting time for ancient literature, and I have been watching this project for quite some time, I think it's only going to refine and not redefine things.  I'd love to be pleasantly surprised.

 

          mwc

 

[walterpthefirst]

I tend to agree, mwc.

 

 

The Herculaneum scrolls are a long shot when it comes to revealing something new about Christianity.

 

But I politely submit that if we change from narrow focus to wide focus, then in the near future, when this non-intrusive, non-destructive technology for reading previously unreadable documents matures other libraries and sources could well throw some new light on the so-called 'canonical' bible that we have today.

 

Like you, I'd very much like to be pleasantly surprised.

 

 

Thanks,

 

 

Walter.