The Trouble With Theism

[Guest Emerson]

This is a little depressing but as I stated in one post at another thread is that if a person believes in a god, then they also have to acknowledge that their god can do anything. God can be good or evil and do good and bad things just like humans can. Yes I know we like the idea of believing in a loving God, yada yada yada.

 

But think about it, if there are god(s) who are all great, knowing, and all powerful then they can do whatever they damn well please. This has been disturbing me for the past few hours. To the point that I actually tuned in to TBN and other religious channels and even watched one episode of "the way of the master" and I think that's a terrible tv show in general.

 

Look at the stories of Zeus, Athena, Ares, Yahweh, etc. They did as they wish, in some stories the gods do nice things and in others they do awful things. Yet people throughout history have believed in them in one way or another. I believe in God, I like believing in God and I want to keep on believing in God. In short, I don't want to give up my belief in God.

 

Its nice but then again if I believe in a general God, even if its not xtian god or allah, if I believe that there is something or someone out there then I also have to acknowledge that this deity can do anything it wants, just like Yahweh, Christain God, Greek Gods can or did in their respective stories and myths.

 

So anyway it seems as if theism is a futile belief and that anyone who believes in a god or the powers that be is pretty much at its or their mercy. Then what's the point of believing in god(s)? It all seem so pointless especially since deities, I believe can't be knowable. I don't know if I could ever stop believing in God and if I even want to stop.

 

So sometimes I just really wonder if there's a deity and it can act as anyway that it wants, then do some people actually realize this and just ignore god on purpose and call themselves heathens in the process? Please this doesn't mean I think people are dishonest but all sorts of things are going thorugh my mind right now.

 

Seems even if you're an atheist you have to have faith in that your belief in not believing in god is right and that you're doing the best that you can with the info/educaiton that you have. So my fear is that what if I am doing the best that I can with all that I'm presented with and am wrong. Yes this has to do with my fear of what happens in death and hell. Sometimes I just don't know what to do when it regards belief, there are so many arguments for and against religion and damn it I'm letting that "way of the master" tv epy go to my head.

 

 

This one epy said, that some people think their xtians when they really just went through an emotional experience where they thought that they accepted jesus christ as their savior but their lifestyle is no diff than from nonbelievers. That there are true believers and "fake believers" (emotional experience) in the church and in judgment they'll be sorted out. It almost makes me want to say the sinners prayer so I have "insurance."

 

I'm scared that hell might be real. if a deity really exists and if they can do as they wish then they can setup heaven and hell and send people there, whether we like it or not. that's the trouble with believing in theism.

[Lycorth]

Actually, the trouble with theism in this case is that you are still looking at the general topic of religion with Xian-colored glasses. You're still putting those unnatural limitations on your mind and heart, and it's only logical you'll have trouble with defining how you believe.

 

I started out as a Deist. I realized this was the most important step, since Deism emphasizes using my own good reason and relying on truth instead of superstition and dogma to define religious things. This was good, as it helped create a mental state where I could deprogram myself, piece by piece, from Xianity - and still retain belief in "God" no matter how I chose to define that concept. You may want to peek into Deism - it's great food for thought.

 

Nowadays, I'm pretty much Heathen. I can still be considered a Deist, since when you examine most Pagan religions, they all emphasize the believer using their own good sense. None of them harp on dogma or fear. Yes, there are some traditions of rituals being concocted to placate this god or that, but there's no Scripchahs or anything demanding such practices. Heathenry is very open-ended - if something isn't right, you are free to ditch it and still not violate your basic beliefs. All Heathen religions have evolved over time, and a Heathen, like a Deist, is free to define their gods any way they choose - reason alone is the true guide.

 

Myself, I try to embrace all Indo-European Pagan traditions, though Asatru (ie, Odinism) is my Heathenry of choice. They're all just vairations on a theme, in the end. To Asatruar, the Havamal (an ancient manuscript) is considered the closest thing we have to a Bible. One verse in this long poem states that "Better burden bearest thou nowise than shrewd head on thy shoulders." In essence, the best thing you can have is a keen mind, since sharp reason and good sense will best see you through life. Nothing about dogma, rituals, sacraments, or any such tripe. That sentiment is reflected in pretty much every Heathen religion with similar writings that have survived to this day. There is a rich tradition of thinking that goes back from the Havamal to the philosophers of ancient Rome and Greece (all Heathens) to the Vedic religion, the religion from which Hinduism was born. In the Rig Veda, the oldest religious book known to man, the opening verses are all about questioning the nature and definition of "God" and of creation - again, no dogma, rules, Hell, fear-mongering, or the like.

 

Also, stories of gods doing this and that are just that - stories. Nowhere are these posited as absolute truths. People who insist that are still yet to deprogram from a Xian mindset. Many Heathens today consider the old folk stories to be only metaphors, or tales concocted for either entertainment purposes or the conveying of different ethics. Very few ascribe absolute literalism to any Pagan tale. Most even consider the gods to be only metaphors for elements of human nature or of actual natural forces, and almost none consider the gods as terrifying beings who demand our submission and self-hatred in their presence. Most of us, myself included, consider them teachers and mentors, and can see that they aren't all-powerful, otherwise they'd just fix all the problems in the world. Perhaps experimenting with a worldview similar to this may help you discover what you yourself believe.

 

Also, consider this. The Abrahamic position of an all-powerful, all-good, all-knowing god is completely illogical. If a god is all-good, it implies that said god has only the highest moral fiber, higher than even humans. Certainly that would make a god want to right all wrongs, no? Of course it would. Combine that with the aspect of being all-powerful, able to affect anything as he or she wants. Add being all-knowing to the mix, and such a god would not rest until the entire world was a suffering-free paradise, no? I mean, even us humans would be like that were we blessed with such powers. Surely a god would be like that, right?

 

Well, we see no such thing in this world. The world is loaded with suffering and no god is doing anything about it. That means that any gods that exist simply don't have that ability, the ability to affect things in the real world. Personally, I believe the only things the Gods can do is give us spiritual strength and encouragement, if that. Clearly nothing else is possible. We've been trained for 2000 years to believe in a god who can do it all yet simply chooses not to and in order to get a blasted thing out of him, we have to grovel in humiliation for an indefinite period first. Obviously, that ain't working.

 

People need to think outside of the box if they want to discover authentic spirituality and religion. No more can people waste one more minute on the box the Abrahamic religions have built for us. Emerson, you'll get nowhere in your spiritual journey as long as you continue to let man-made concepts like Hell and all-powerful ubergods drag you down. If just ditching it all and being an Atheist isn't for you, you need to think outside the box. And that's a perfectly Heathen thing to do

 

I'm not trying to make a convert out of you, but giving you an alternative point of view for you to examine at your will. Click my sig and check out the links page - I've tried to gather a few handy links there. There's no devil, there's no Hell, and the best thing I ever did is realize that everything about Xianity is bullshit, and I really can define my own religion for myself. There's no Hell of everlasting flames waiting for us if we're wrong. Personally, I believe in universal reincarnation, ie, that the universe itself will die and be reborn, over and over, just like the seasons rotate, over and over. And why shouldn't I think so? It's much more logical than believing I'll either strum harps and kiss Yahooweh's™ ass for all eternity or be tortured in flames for all time, depending on his choice.

 

It's all up to you - really. Good luck

[Antlerman]

Where to start? Religions, and Christians in particular in this case, have been manipulating the minds and sprits of people the world over for millennia. In a word, this is bullshit. They are capitalizing off of peoples fears, creating and fostering people's fears of the unknown to their own ends. Hell? Ha! They made it up. All of these things have roots in the mythologies of societies and have evolved bit by bit into the present day version these controlling manipulators behind the pulpits have been using to frighten people like you into following them. There are many in Christianity who do not accept that the Bible teaches of a literal hell and have all sorts of verses to back up their views.

 

As far as believing in a deity, and that the deity can do as it pleases: Not all deities or "higher powers" have to necessarily have personalities. In reality, all that a god is, whether it is an all powerful sovereign deity like Yahweh or Allah, or trilateral deity like the Father, Son, Holy Ghost, or a demi-god, or a non-personal cosmic force of ultimate goodness, all they are is a creation of us, what we need or desire to be. They are a symbol of OUR aspirations, as individuals and/or as a society of human beings. This is why the faces of gods are always changing; from sacrificing children on a blood altar to the agricultural gods, to sacrificing lambs to the tribal god Jehovah in the Old Testament, to salvation by grace through Jesus in the New Testament as the final blood sacrifice to the tribal god Jehovah in order to now bring the world to God through himself, to the unity of man through cosmic consciousness. You see? Our sensiblites are evolving as our societies evolve, and our images of our gods change along with us to continue to serve us. God is us.

 

As far as atheists go? I'd like to make a distinction for you between big B and little b. Big B Belief = religious belief. Small b, belief = the common use as meaning accepting something that is rationally evident, i.e., I believe that George Bush is president. Big B is believing in something with no evidence. Atheism is simply not doing big B Belief. There is no evidence for a god, there for I believe "there is no evidence for a god". See the difference? It's not a faith, anymore than saying that I believe that Spielberg’s ET was not a real being. If I said I believed that his ET on screen was a real being and that they are hiding the fact; that is big B belief, the same as believing in things like Jehovah and company. There is no tangible evidence to support it.

[Amanda]

Seems even if you're an atheist you have to have faith in that your belief in not believing in god is right and that you're doing the best that you can with the info/educaiton that you have. So my fear is that what if I am doing the best that I can with all that I'm presented with and am wrong. Yes this has to do with my fear of what happens in death and hell. Sometimes I just don't know what to do when it regards belief, there are so many arguments for and against religion and damn it I'm letting that "way of the master" tv epy go to my head.

 

 

This one epy said, that some people think their xtians when they really just went through an emotional experience where they thought that they accepted jesus christ as their savior but their lifestyle is no diff than from nonbelievers. That there are true believers and "fake believers" (emotional experience) in the church and in judgment they'll be sorted out. It almost makes me want to say the sinners prayer so I have "insurance."

 

I'm scared that hell might be real. if a deity really exists and if they can do as they wish then they can setup heaven and hell and send people there, whether we like it or not. that's the trouble with believing in theism.

Hi Emerson...

 

Most of us here have an idea of what you are going through now. Many of us have many years of seminary in our past, and I think Antlerman has attended seminary too. It's not like we haven't studied the Bible... most of us have! Even more than most preachers!

 

Think about this... IF there were a literal hell, with blazing fire that tortured people for eternity, and it is created by this God for those that do not worship him... do you want to spend eternity with something like that? Think about all those people that were born in a culture that NEVER even heard about him, by default they are tortured for eternity! That would also mean that Hitler, who claimed to have been doing the Lord's work and professed to be a Christian till the end, would go to heaven, while Ghandi would go to hell! These literal teachings have people in FEAR... and what kind of a way of life is that?

 

I have a dear friend, where I see this is distroying her life. She won't even go see Harry Potter because that is promoting sorcery! C'mon Emerson... break free! I wish my dear friend would do so.

 

If the literal interpretations were to be true... why isn't there any evidence outside the Bible? Dare to look at the other evidence. Get away from fear... and if Truth is God, then it should be evident all around you.

 

IMHO, I think the Bible is just parables, allegories, with many metaphors that teach about principles and values. The war between heaven and hell is only in our minds! The side that wins is the side you feed the most. If one believes in a literal hell, they will already be there now. Look at what it's doing to YOU! It saddens me so much to see what it is doing to my dear friend too. *sigh*

 

Antlerman is so right about what has happened to these teachings through the years. What we have now has been twisted and changed so much... it wouldn't even be recognized by the original movement. I hope you stick around, IMO, this site will be so good for you. You won't find much fear here. :wink:

[Guest Emerson]

Thanks to all three of you who responded. It really means a lot to me. Hell is what I worried about half of the time that I was a xtian. Its such a terrible way to live. Like Amanda pointed out, I just can't wrap my mind around how good, innocent people can be sent to hell like Anne Frank. How could any god sent a young teen girl to hell after the hell of a concentration camp?! I just can't get my mind how any deity could do that, and even if there was such a deity, why would I want to worship it out of fear? I hate how xtianity is a religion based on fear.

 

I don't know how any god could call hell "justice" and I really need to quit letting the fundies get to me. Its just really tough to get out of that mentality, I've thought that my days with deprograming were over but I guess I still have some things to work out. I'm just so tired of the xtian god, of my fears of being damned to hell for all eternity, and of feeling guilty for being human. I'm just so sick of it.

 

I have decided that I don't want to worship a deity out of fear. I just can't do it, mentally and emotionally I just can't. Not even for "insurance" and I pretty much see how xtianity isn't so different from other religions. How so much of it is just based on people's fears. Another thing that just annoyed me as a xtian, was the idea of the devil/angels/demons and that we should be very afraid. I really got tired of having to be afraid of invisible "beings." I don't want to drive myself crazy anymore. I'm just tired of feeling guilty, confused and most of all I'm tired of feeling as if I need to be afraid of invisible things be it god, the devil, etc.

[Antlerman]

Its just really tough to get out of that mentality, I've thought that my days with deprograming were over but I guess I still have some things to work out. I'm just so tired of the xtian god, of my fears of being damned to hell for all eternity, and of feeling guilty for being human. I'm just so sick of it.

I want to add that you shouldn't feel there's anything wrong with you if you find the programming keeps coming back for years and years throughout your life. I still find it popping up in situations I wouldn't imagine, that mentality of a closed system, or some quirky little superstition or fear. It's a continual process of learning to recognize them and to evaluate where they're coming from, and then consciously shedding them off. This site is a great resource with a community of people who are all too familiar with that world's mindsets. It's great to be free of that system to be able to actually grow.

[Lycorth]

I want to add that you shouldn't feel there's anything wrong with you if you find the programming keeps coming back for years and years throughout your life. I still find it popping up in situations I wouldn't imagine, that mentality of a closed system, or some quirky little superstition or fear. It's a continual process of learning to recognize them and to evaluate where they're coming from, and then consciously shedding them off. This site is a great resource with a community of people who are all too familiar with that world's mindsets. It's great to be free of that system to be able to actually grow.

 

Exactly - Xianity is deeply-ingrained in most of us. It's natural for it to pop up every so often. I sometimes get a little of that, here and there. You're human - you're brain remembers certain things. Just stay the course and one day you'll break free, and even though little bits will keep coming back, Xianity and its fearmongering will be a thing of the distant past for you