Gave My 1st Dinner Prayer Since I Was Kid

[quicksand]

I have an experience I wish to tell...

 

This weekend I was grilling out with one of my best friends and his family. I've known these people for a really long time and only until the last few years has being a non-believer been anything of an issue. Now, they are cool with it and are generally inquisitive as to what it is like to be without belief in the supernatural and they can discuss quite easily the Bible with me - even though I've been a non-christian since I was just a wee bit older than their oldest. Heck, my buddies wife once kept pushing me in a discussion with my buddy about how Jesus never condemned homosexuality in the synoptics! (Yes they are liberal christians and liberals too boot.) They are regular church goers and have a 10 year old going through neighborhood Lutheran school, just blocks from me. They attended a right-wing church btw.

 

Well that evenings conversation turned to religion. The 10 year old's father (not my buddy, he is a step-dad) is a youth pastor at an Apostolic church - they are the crazies that speak in tongues you know. Anyway, their 10-yr old was relating how he was being pressured into pantomiming along and refused. We congratulated him and I added that his level of skepticism was a good thing and that all truth claims he should question likewise. (After much re-explaining - with help of his mom, that a 10 year old could understand.) Of course, my larger point is about Christianity itself. Invariably, these open ended-conversations drift into other tenets of the religion. I was asked about faith by my buddy, I told him that I didn't need it and that I had knowledge. I declared right then and there that my knowledge was superior to his faith in all ways. He didn't say anything and just move on to the next topic he was interest to him. My buddy asked me about death. I told him, "wormfood" and that's why every moment I am together with him and his family are moments I will always love because we will never have them again. I also told both of them that I just couldn't lie to myself and believe in Christianity as truth. Doesn't the bible instruct us not to lie? (HE HE. Couldn't help it.) They agreed with me of course and when I related the story that when I was in Sunday school and my teacher was instructing us that if you did good for humanity without Jesus, you had in effect, done no good at all. They scoffed at that as well. I didn't have the time to delve why what the teacher had said, was in fact, biblically justified. I have to look it up again. These conversations are always rapid and free-flowing.

 

Directly after that, soup was on and our grillables were served. Crab legs, yellow fin tuna, mushrooms, texas toast, and various stuffed-meat that he made for his family. (I am a lacto-ovo-fishatarian btw... um??) Just as I was about to sit down, their 10-year old was about to offer dinner prayer when his mom reminded him that the guest should say it.

 

Well, suffice to say, I felt broadsided but I realized the good spirit in which it was offered that the guest should say. I hope so. Hard to think bad about my friends - sentiment is like faith, it clouds and renders judgement useless. Anyway, I literally stuttered (cause I was shocked) and said very plainly "You know I am an athiest and haven't been a christian in like forever." (Slam a drink for effect sake.) I was then offered and prompted to say something nice. And you know what? I did.

 

I gave, from the bottom of my being - those things that I think are the best about thr,, why I loved each of them and their company. I meant it. All of it predicated on me. Not because God tells us to love in some incoherent bronze and iron age text. This is real love. Not forced for reward. But real. I hope they realize this.

 

After that they asked me to go to church with them. I said that I could and it didn't threaten me or my world-view. In fact, I thought that if I did go to church with them and was honest and very politely engaged them in a discussion with the sermon as the basis, that perhaps they could begin to face the world honestly themselves. I do feel, that in some ways I threathen them cause I do not share the tribal god. If asked seriously I may consider it. My buddy wants me to engage my questions with his pastor, who I hear is on a massive jihad against the gays and catholics presently. I told him that I really do not have questions about god - god and gods are a non-issue in my life.

 

I may go, but I will go with an agenda. To show how much of a fool this pastor is and to encourage a dialogue where they do not feel threatened between my friends.

 

 

 

 

 

(sorry this is rambling. I am kinda sick today and wanted to take a break from all the charity-work that is piling up.)

[white_raven23]

 

Un-freaking-believable. You have a lot more courtesy and poise than your friends do Quicksand.

 

I dunno, maybe the encounter came off differently than it sounds and I'm barking up the wrong tree....but what is the deal? It's okay for what you say to go in one ear and out the other? Or do your friends want you to go to church so they can get your POV of a typical church-sunday while it's still fresh in their minds?

 

I don't know.......but this is how it seems to me....

 

You: I've spent the past "x" number of years recovering from alcoholism! It's been hard, but I haven't had a drink in over a year!

 

Friend: Uh-huh....good for you. Say. We're all going over to the new BoozeBarn Bar that just opened on Southside.....want to come?

 

[Lorena Rodriguez]

I have to say that you are either a very patient person or you love these people very much. Putting you on the spot like that was downright mean.

 

I would have said no--I am not saying you should have. I am just saying what I would've done.

 

I guess I would have dusted off my communications skills and would've said something hypocritical like, "It is nice of you to defer to me... blah, blah. But really, praying would be hypocritical and I am really not up to it. I would appreciate it if somebody else did it."

 

Now, if I had been having a bad day, I would have just walked away from the table and driven off their house. I tell you this, nobody is going to make me pray if I don't want to. Nobody.

 

But you feel free to pray as much as you like. I am not judging you.

[Fweethawt]

He didn't pray.

 

He gave an HONEST thanks before the meal.

 

 

Way to go, Quick!

 

I did something similar on Thanksgiving a while back.

Things were sort of awkward for those who aren't

prepared for something so genuine.

[futurekid]

Cool stuff. It reminds me of the movie Catch Me If You Can where Leonardo DiCaprio is asked to offer the blessing and he has no idea what to do. So he tells this short story about a mouse falling into a pitcher of cream and churning it into butter that his dad had told him earlier in the movie.

 

By the way, its just an idea depending on what you intend to do, but I think this is my favorite question when really attempting to get believers to think as in when you meet the pastor. Ask "Is slavery evil?" If they say no, you aren't going to be able to have a conversation with them because they have a very strange definition of evil. However if they say yes, ask them why an all-powerful, omniscient God neglected to have even one of his appointed scribes include a clear text that would indicate that his followers ought not own other humans seeing as how this was sure to happen in the absence of such a text.

 

Basically all apologetics I have seen on the Biblical slavery issue attempt to explain that ancient near-east slavery is an entirely different system than what we think of as slavery today. However even if one is willing to grant this absurd premise, it does not remove the onus on God to warn people about the evils of participating in the more recent incarnation of slavery.

[Amethyst]

Next time they ask you to pray, just get up, shake the hand of the person or people who made the food and say "Thank you for all your hard work for making this meal for us. I really appreciate it." Or, you could do "rub a dub dub, thanks for the grub." No mention of god, just a thank you.

 

I certainly would not go to church with people who did not appreciate me for who I am, even after I told them. The very fact that they made you pray shows their lack of respect for who you are.

[♦ nivek ♦]

"Good food, good meat, good GOSH, lets eat!"

 

 

Given in same spirit the kid requested..

 

Have fun with it.. The imaginary can't hurt you.

 

kL

[Ro-bear]

My balls are just regular-size. When that hot potato threatens to fall in my lap, I dodge it with firm courtesy.

 

I haven't prayed since the 1972 playoffs, and I aim to keep it that way.

 

When I'm cornered (or too tired to dodge), I tell it like it is. Mostly I just dodge and let folks think what they will.

[quicksand]

Sorry, I've been kinda ill the past few days, so this is the first I have really to concentrate on the reaction.

 

I dunno, maybe the encounter came off differently than it sounds and I'm barking up the wrong tree....but what is the deal? It's okay for what you say to go in one ear and out the other? Or do your friends want you to go to church so they can get your POV of a typical church-sunday while it's still fresh in their minds?

I hear you. I do think that a lot of what I say when they do have question is just discounted, dismissed or equivocated as "he's on a spiritual-journey" or "he's just confused" etc etc etc.

 

I try not to be overly offend, even though nearly all Christians I know can not take criticism about their religion.

 

Its a forever never ending double-standard that we must deal with unfortunately.

 

Oh, I think they want me to go to church to save me probably.

 

I have to say that you are either a very patient person or you love these people very much. Putting you on the spot like that was downright mean.

.....

 

But you feel free to pray as much as you like. I am not judging you.

But that's the thing. It wasn't a prayer. And the smile on their faces was more glowing and appreciative then any "prayer" to god thanking for the free gifts laid out at their dinner table.

 

Which I will expound upon later in this post.

 

Oh and you are judging me. Its okay. Its the religious that can not take being criticized, not us brights.

 

He didn't pray.

He gave an HONEST thanks before the meal.

 

I did something similar on Thanksgiving a while back.

Things were sort of awkward for those who aren't prepared for something so genuine.

Exactly! Exactly! Exactly!

 

The thing is Fwee, what can us ex-christians, or atheists, or non-christians offer to society, other than a reasoned approach to life? What about family? What about a way to share and commemorate the large and small events in our lives?

 

(I know you're already thinking what I am thinking.)

 

Cool stuff. It reminds me of the movie Catch Me If You Can

_______________________

 

By the way, its just an idea depending on what you intend to do, but I think this is my favorite question when really attempting to get believers to think as in when you meet the pastor. Ask "Is slavery evil?"

Never seen the movie. Since I am ill with the flu this weekend, maybe I will run out to the local video store and see what they got.

______________________

 

Slavery is a good one. Jesus had no problem with it and couldn't even come with an effective cure for those with mental health problems. No psychoactive drug prescriptions – just a lot of drowning pigs.

 

Next time they ask you to pray, just get up, shake the hand of the person or people who made the food and say "Thank you for all your hard work for making this meal for us. I really appreciate it." Or, you could do "rub a dub dub, thanks for the grub." No mention of god, just a thank you.

 

I certainly would not go to church with people who did not appreciate me for who I am, even after I told them. The very fact that they made you pray shows their lack of respect for who you are.

That's essentially what I did. I acknowledged them. Not god. I acknowledged who they were in my lives and you should have seen their faces. They were so happy, unlike any prayer to god ever could have. Ever.

 

I think its a bit more complicated than not "appreciating me," Amethyst. I think its a matter of education. I was a skeptic and a non-believer very early in life, so I've had years to shake the fear and suspicion and most of all, the intolerance that I had been trained to accept. With my buddy and his wife, not entirely the same case.

 

I really don't think we should be so thin skinned. And it may get tiring. But I love these people as they love me, so I take the high road instead of letting it get to me.

 

But perhaps, its sentiment again screwing with objectivity?

 

"Good food, good meat, good GOSH, lets eat!"

Good rice.

Good curry.

Watch out Ghandi.

I eat in a hurry.

 

My balls are just regular-size. When that hot potato threatens to fall in my lap, I dodge it with firm courtesy.

 

I haven't prayed since the 1972 playoffs, and I aim to keep it that way.

 

When I'm cornered (or too tired to dodge), I tell it like it is. Mostly I just dodge and let folks think what they will.

Well, if I was ultimately forced in a corner and had to make a prayer to god, then no dice. No fucking way. At my Milw, dem meet-ups, I excuse myself to the bathroom before the pledge. I will not say "under god." no fucking way.

 

_________________________________________

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I guess the point I learned from this whole experience, is that we ex-er's can talk about reason and rationality and how the bible and other religious texts are nothing but so much frozen swiss cheese on a hot plate until we're blue in the face, but if we can not address some of the larger social issues that help hold family together and friends, then we will never really make an inroads.

 

I still go up to my folks house for Easter and Christmas. Not cause I am Christian obviously, but to be with my family. (I also relish the delicious irony that Christian holidays are essentially pagan holidays.)

 

What can we atheists and ex-er's offer in return to share our feelings?

 

Well, perhaps, I've stumbled onto something?

 

About 10 or more years ago I went to an lesbian wedding. Of course it wasn't recognized by the state, but it was meant fully as a wedding between the couple. One of the gals to be married had a father who could not accept the fact that she was gay and had a 20 year relationship with this other woman. He grudgingly came to the ceremony. During the ceremony the (female) paster invited us to stand up and share our thoughts about the couples union (both dressed smartly in tuxes btw). One and one, friends and family stood-up and offered the full support and expressions of love and well-wishes of the future. Well, the grudging Dad stood up, so moved, to say that he loved his daughter and could now well accept the way his daughter was. It was truly amazing. Amazing.

 

If her father did not come to this wedding, I doubt that all the brain chemistry studies on the genetic disposition of one sexuality would have helped this father get over his fears and finally make an inroads to accepting his daughter. Hell, I cried a bit myself. Which made my girlfriend then cry too. (Yeah I am a big softie...)

 

Of course, the irony is that all this was done in god's house (Why does god need a starship? I mean house. House.) and really while its just barely valid to make an argument for homosexuality as an okay thing from the bible, it's a hell of a lot easier to make an argument against with that very same book. Irony. Irony. Irony. .

 

Anyway, it's gonna take a hell of a lot more than reason or the Da Vinci Code to undue the structures of society that Christianity has come to fill.

 

I think we have to find a way to usurp those traditional places, like births, birthdays, deaths, yes and even weddings, and give it honest and secular meaning.

 

Like, maybe, a secular "prayer" if you will.

 

What do you think?

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

Mt 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

 

Mt 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

 

Praying outloud before others is a temptation to sin because it leads to pride and vanity. When someone prays outloud they are wondering what others are thinking, about how good of a job they are doing, and how their spirituality is being judged by others. People will want to pray well to impress others which takes away the prayer from thanking god to passing judgement by other people. They put you on the spot for that reason only, to pass judgement, to make you uncomfortable and it had nothing to do with giving thanks. Add to that the mother's desire to make you the one that prayed so that she could open the door to more open conversion techniques such as getting you into a church where her goal will be to sic the preacher-man on you.