Raising Kids

[StrawberrySundae]

This is something I have been struggling with since my son was born. I was raised a fundy, and HATED it. Whenever I talked about a friend from school of another religion, I got the speech about how they were going to hell. How stupid.

 

Anyway, while I was questioning everything I really started learning about other religions. I really like neo hinduism and buddhaism, etc. And I have no problem with liberal xians, its just the ones who can't think for themselves that drives me nuts. Anyway, b/c of my upbringing, I don't feel I as a parent have the right to force my kids into any religion OR atheism. I think it means nothing unless it is chosen, that is why I don't get baptising babies. What does it mean if they don't chose it for themselves? JMO.

 

So I am basically teaching them about god, telling them stories about god that are used more to teach morality rather than religion. An example of a bedtime story:

 

Father and son hungry walking down the street. Father sees farm with watermelons. Father tells son he is going to steal one and to call him if someone sees. Father goes to steal watermelon, son starts screaming for him. Dad runs back, asks who saw, son tells him god did. (short for brevity)

 

The point of this is to give them the understanding that just b/c no one sees you do something bad, doesn't mean its not bad. Young kids are so ego centric, this is a hard concept to grasp, and the whole god thing just helps. I don't teach them bible stories, but I do also read them Hindu stories, I find those better at teaching morality and such than xian stories.

 

My opinion is, as a parent it is my job to give my kids as much information as possible, so they can make the choice thats best for them. If they decide to be atheist, great, if they chose a religion, great. But it was something THEY chose. I am hesitant about telling them I am an atheist b/c I am afraid they will use it to not listen to anything I say about god, you know? I have always been of the belief that these aren't MY children, as in posessions, these are human beings I have been lucky enough to have in my life, if that makes sense.

 

So what do you all do? How do you teach concepts like morality and integrity to young children in ways they can grasp, if you don't use god?

[futurekid]

I am hesitant about telling them I am an atheist b/c I am afraid they will use it to not listen to anything I say about god, you know? I have always been of the belief that these aren't MY children, as in posessions, these are human beings I have been lucky enough to have in my life, if that makes sense.

 

I'm sure I don't have even close to the whole picture of what you mean here, but this seems a little wierd to me. I mean if you were a Christian, you'd have no problem making sure they were aware of the fact. As to where do values come from apart from God? Evolutionary psychology explains much of what our social expectations are. In addition qualities such as honesty are valued and admired because they contribute to a stable social system. The golden rule forms a large part of my personal ethical system. Reason and balance provide a basis for the best ethical behavior.

 

I recommend raising your kids to honestly seek out truth for themselves. Just make sure they have an innoculation against some of the more virulent memeplexes out there. Kids are very smart. They will learn much more from your example than from your words alone.

[♦ nivek ♦]

Strawberry...

 

Resident mean_old_man with that owns a 13 year old son.

 

"Beastie" is an Honors student, well adjusted, decent kid. Have not made religious superstition any part of his upbringing. Period.

 

Not raised *in* any tradition of fear in unseen and unknowable spooks.

 

Currently at point where he wants more information on the *gurl_thing*. Won't get a fundy guilt_ridden_gawHd_hates_you_'cause_yer_dick _gets_hard trip...

 

Thing is for kids is to raise them the way you want them to be. Pick a direction and see then grow when they learn and experience things.

 

There are few *issues* when raising kids without *god*. I have yet to find a net_negative, save for the other 99% of kids who are of some sect and willing to try and save your kid.

 

Make sure your children are trained and compent in some form of non-armed combat. They may need it when the fundie kids come knocking..

 

kL

[StrawberrySundae]

futurekid- Let me try to explain better. First off, I have a degree in psych, with emphasis in child development. I have two gifted children, who are both exceptionally well behaved and very compassionate and empathetic. There is, however, a huge difference in a person doing the right thing b/c mom, or society, encourages that behavior, and a person doing the right thing b/c of integrity and morality. The first is very easy to teach, the second, not so much. The second is by far more valuble to me. And that is why I am asking, for those of you raising kids, how do you teach these things without god. Using god is just so easy. Still a crutch for me. My kids see god mostly like santa claus. They have no clue about the cross, hell, etc, if that makes sense. My plan as of now is, as they get older, 'god' will start to change from something out there, to something within them, if that makes sense.

 

As far as me not telling my kids I don't believe in god.... you are right, kids are very smart. And one thing they hate more than anything else is hypocrisy. If they know I am unsure about the existance god, every time I tell them a story, they will immediately tune out. Evenutally I would like to have discussions with them about this, but they are still very young and aren't at a point of brain development where they can understand this. They are still very black and white. Piaget did some wonderful studies on child brain development, and at what ages they can start to think out of the box, etc., if you are interested. I hope that clears some stuff up!

 

nivek- I agree that integrity and morality are totally possible outside of religion. However, having been raised a fundy myself, I have no experience in teaching those lessons, or experiencing them, outside of god. I can pinpoint many 'aha' moments in my childhood where i 'got' what integrity/moraity meant, based on a bible story. I do see a positive benefit to them. Kids sometimes need metaphors to understand what the heck adults are trying to say. It is seperating the religion/god aspect of them that has me asking questions. I was just wondering how other parents instilled these values, if not with religion.

 

And as far as my kids protecting themselves... my dad is a card carrying member of the NRA. I have been shooting since I was six and can pretty much make most men look like idiots on a range. My dad has my kids heading down the same path. On top of that, they are both in karate. I think they'll do just fine if and when a fundy comes calling.

[Ro-bear]

My wife and I did not set out to raise our children in any worldview. We simply are what we are and let the kids figure it out for themselves. The only times they have been in church have been for weddings and funerals. When they ask the inevitable God questions we answer them honestly.

 

"Well, some people believe..., but others believe..., and your mother and I don't know everything, but we don't worry about it much."

 

They seem satisfied with our answers, and they don't worry about it much, either.

 

One day my oldest daughter came up to me and asked if we were going to Hell. I told her of course not, and what would make you think such a thing. Her little friend had told her that people who don't accept Jesus as their lord and savior burn in Hell forever. I asked her if that sounded like a reasonable consequence. She said no. I said, "Look at that sunset; do you think somebody who made something that beautiful roasts nice people like you and me?" She smiled and seemed relieved. I told her that if there is a god, he/she/it is a lot smarter than we are, and even we are smart enough to know that eternal punishment is bad parenting.

 

I don't know what paths my children will choose, but I know they have a solid sense of right and wrong. I'm very proud of them and their decisions. I trust them, and they trust me and their mother. They will be all right.

[Taphophilia]

Personally, I think children learn morality and integrity from the examples we set and not anything we can say to them.

 

Taph

[LosingMyReligion]

I would teach my kid to be skeptical about everything. I want him or her to have the choice on what he or she believes...Not what is force fed to them by society.

 

I mean I love to see little kids when they believe in make believe...That is the fun thing about being a child. But growing up and basing your life on what a book of 2,000 year old stories says is not right.

 

I don't resent my mom for doing it to me. I just wish I had had the choice.

[chefranden]

Probably the basic tool for inculcation into our culture is the TV commercial. After that comes school in which adds play an ever increasing role. If a child is exposed to these things, they need to be educated about what is going on, or they will be plowed under. And they need to be taught early. There is a great deal of reality in the Jesuit boast, "Give us a child until he is 7 and he will be ours for life."

 

What ever our philosophical misgivings, a child needs no other authority than her significant adults. She has not come to the point where she is second guessing things yet. She will begin to experience confusion in this matter as soon as she starts school, i.e. removed from contact with her significant adults. "These adults, don't agree with those adults, who should I go with?" That is not the way children were raised in the wild. That is they have not evolved to be school going critters. Like bear cubs they followed their significant adults around until they knew what they were doing on their own, and the adults didn't have to worry much about whether their children would be like them or not.

 

But our culture doesn't want that anymore. We are convinced that we need standard people, cogs to fit the machine, if the machine needs them. If not c'est la vie. This modern version of training people is not very old in the west. It is much older in China, from whom the Germans took the practice, because they were getting their ass handed to them by Napoleon. The Germans wanted standardized soldiers and officers so they started them young -- like the Spartans. This notion didn't reach the US until the late 19th century. The robber barons liked the idea of standardized people, but for industry more than the army. It is they that funded guys like Hugo Munsterberg, Horace Mann, and John Dewy.

 

Munsterberg’s particular obsession lay in quantifying the mental and physical powers of the population for central government files, so policymakers could manage the nation’s "human resources" efficiently. His students became leaders of the "standardization" crusade in America. Munsterberg was convinced that racial differences could be reduced to numbers, equally convinced it was his sacred duty to the Aryan race to do so. Aryanism crackled like static electricity across the surface of American university life in those days, its implications part of every corporate board game and government bureau initiative. from here

 

The first State to have compulsorily schooling was Massachusetts 1898, but the people didn’t want it and the government had to force many of them to send their children at National Guard gunpoint. Now we are all inculcated to believe that children must go to school to be educated while being ignorant of the fact that public school’s mission is inculcation, or drilling people in standardization. Example: No Child Left Behind.

 

So it is no wonder that we are confused and worried about how and what our children will learn. We are no longer in control of the same, and believe that we are not competent to be in control.

[ThePureOne]

I think you're doing a disservice with the God thing, and setting yourself for failure because at some point you will have to admit God is B.S.

 

Personally, I think if you have to be 18 to vote, you should be close to that before being exposed to mind-control. Brainwashing kids is practically child abuse.

 

I realize you're not doing that, but there is no need to resort to god stories. There are plenty of moral-teaching fables that are non-religious. But ultimately they will learn from the ongoing example you set, not from stories you read to them.

 

My parents were forced to go to church as kids, when they were old enough they blew it off, they were never believers. So I was raised by atheists. My moniker is The Pure One because I am as I was born - never have I been tainted with God-belief in any way shape or form. Yet my parents were able to demonstrate and discuss what is and is not ethical and appropriate behavior, and I am doing the same with my son. It'll be a bit odd letting him believe Santa Claus is real and superheroes come to his birthday party while letting him know Jesus is pretend, but only the latter is a dangerous belief he might not automatically outgrow.

[Amethyst]

Teach children compassion, and you won't have to worry about morality...IMHO. It should follow naturally. The Golden Rule is common to most major world religions. You can teach them that without the dogma.

[StrawberrySundae]

I think you're doing a disservice with the God thing, and setting yourself for failure because at some point you will have to admit God is B.S.

 

Personally, I think if you have to be 18 to vote, you should be close to that before being exposed to mind-control. Brainwashing kids is practically child abuse.

 

I realize you're not doing that, but there is no need to resort to god stories. There are plenty of moral-teaching fables that are non-religious. But ultimately they will learn from the ongoing example you set, not from stories you read to them.

 

My parents were forced to go to church as kids, when they were old enough they blew it off, they were never believers. So I was raised by atheists. My moniker is The Pure One because I am as I was born - never have I been tainted with God-belief in any way shape or form. Yet my parents were able to demonstrate and discuss what is and is not ethical and appropriate behavior, and I am doing the same with my son. It'll be a bit odd letting him believe Santa Claus is real and superheroes come to his birthday party while letting him know Jesus is pretend, but only the latter is a dangerous belief he might not automatically outgrow.

 

I could argue that you are doing a disservice allowing your kids to believe in santa, when you will also have to tell them one day that is a lie.

 

As I said, I am very vague about god. It is more of an idea I am teaching them. I HATE organized religion, but I really don't believe allowing children to think about the possibility of a god, or lack thereof, is 'brainwashing.' In fact, considering we live in a xian dominated culture, I would say it's more of a disservice to NOT educate children about xianity so they understand politics and such better.

 

I am not so black and white as to think you can only teach kids this way or that. I think it is entirely possible to use stories from several religions as examples of points you are trying to make. I also think it is borderline abusive to force kids into a way of thinking, whether it is xianity or atheism. That is something that should only be decided by the individual. I want my kids to have as much information about everything as possible to make their life choices. Telling them a bible story or two isn't going to indoctrinate them into religion, if it is done with explanation about why people believe it, what others believe, etc. Children are very smart, it takes a lot more than that to turn them.

[ThePureOne]

I could argue that you are doing a disservice allowing your kids to believe in santa, when you will also have to tell them one day that is a lie.

 

Not very convincingly. Everyone outgrows Santa, it's not a big deal. I think kids would understand the rationale for letting them be kids.

 

As I said, I am very vague about god. It is more of an idea I am teaching them.

 

It's your choice, but it seems you want to give them an exposure to the concept. That isn't necessary, and your kids will grasp that you are open to the concept if not fixated on the specifics. Personally, I don't see the point in lending tacit credence to a concept I think is clearly nonsense. I think it's a very important point that ethics and morals exist entirely independently of the concept of god.

 

Everything can be derived from the Golden Rule, which is teaching empathy for others. In your example of the farmer picking the watermelons, you could ask them if it would be a good thing if they saw someone stealing their favorite toy. When they answer in the negative, ask if makes it OK if the toy was stolen and they didn't see who did it. Etc. It can all be done quite easily, personally I'd save the rest for a comparative religion class far in the future, if they care. I don't fnd the subject worthy of much attention, and wouldn't want to give the impression that I do. If my son has that much time to contemplate philosophy, he can work harder on more important things like reading and math.

[mostlyharmless]

So I am basically teaching them about god, telling them stories about god that are used more to teach morality rather than religion. An example of a bedtime story:

 

Father and son hungry walking down the street. Father sees farm with watermelons. Father tells son he is going to steal one and to call him if someone sees. Father goes to steal watermelon, son starts screaming for him. Dad runs back, asks who saw, son tells him god did. (short for brevity)

 

 

I have seen an atheist version of this story and it goes something like this, "If I steal this apple, who will know? No one else will know but I will know." In other words, the boy is listening to his conscience. It's a repetitious story where the boy is placed in scenarios where he has the opportunity to get away with doing something immoral but decides not to because "I will know."

 

Here is a link to the site with the story:

 

Atheist stories for children (including "I would know" and explaining God to children)

[mostlyharmless]

I'm not sure what I would do about Santa Claus if I had children. I would rather give them gifts at xmas-time saying they're from me than from Santa. The main problem I have with NOT encouraging belief in Santa is that, in my day, kids were punished for telling other kids there's no such thing as Santa. I would not want this to happen to my kids. I would have to warn them of Santa sychophants or something when they get to school age...

 

The problem with the Santa story is that kids believe that Santa will give them whatever they want because Santa doesn't have budget constraints like parents do. Santa is very "God-like" in that "He knows when you are sleeping, he knows when you're awake, he knows when you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness' sake!" The Santa concept piles on the guilt-trip, just like the God concept. I think kids are better off without it and I think parents are too.

[Guest Emerson]

IF I ever do have kids then I want them to make their own decision where religion is concerned, I don't want to force any worldview, not even my own because they will be their own separate people with their own thoughts, personalities, opinions, etc. But I will share my opinions and thoughts when they do start to wonder and ask questions, usually around 9 or 10 years old, kids get really curious it seems. I want them to be aware of all beliefs and not be arrogant and to think logically instead of following blindly into anything.

 

About Santa Claus, I'm kind of divided. I've never believed in Santa not even as a kid because I just kind of realized that it was something I saw on television. I knew my parents bought me presents. Some people have said they liked believing in Santa and grew out of it. I don't want to lie to my kids, so I'll turn around the question and let them make their own decision. Someday though the illusion has to be shattered and I'd rather tell them the truth than letting them believe in some lie and in something imaginary.

 

And like others here, I will teach right and wrong to any future children.

[StrawberrySundae]

IF I ever do have kids then I want them to make their own decision where religion is concerned, I don't want to force any worldview, not even my own because they will be their own separate people with their own thoughts, personalities, opinions, etc. But I will share my opinions and thoughts when they do start to wonder and ask questions, usually around 9 or 10 years old, kids get really curious it seems. I want them to be aware of all beliefs and not be arrogant and to think logically instead of following blindly into anything.

 

 

Emerson- this is exactly how I feel. I want to give them as much information about everything as I possibly can, and let them make the decisions that work best for THEIR lives. This is why I don't see it as such a big deal to mix in a bit of 'god' along with teaching them to be skeptical and question authority. I don't want black and white, non thinking children. You can't form an opinion about something if you don't know the other side of the story. Of if you do form an opinion, it is an opinion based in ignorance.

 

mostlyharmless- thank you for that link. that is exactly the type of information I was looking for.

 

Pureone- you and I will have to agree to disagree on this one. Yes, I do want to give them exposure to the concept. It is my kids' decision whether they will be religious or not, not mine. I don't have the right to make that choice for them. And in order for them to make the best informed choice, they need ALL the information. Its like teaching sex ed without even discussing abstinence or masturbation, lol.

 

Thanks all for responding!

[The Sage Nabooru]

Anyway, b/c of my upbringing, I don't feel I as a parent have the right to force my kids into any religion OR atheism.

 

I abhor children and thus don't want to raise any of them, but if I did, that is how I would do it.

 

I would never, ever, ever bring a kid to believe that he (or I) is right and everyone else is wrong. That's fundyism, no matter if it comes from Xianity, Atheism, Islam, or whatever. I would raise a child to have an open mind.

 

Answering questions honestly: "What is God?" I wouldn't say, "Jesus", I wouldn't say "an imaginary being," I'd go the middle road, "God is someone some people believe in, a lot of folks don't and a lot a folks do - people who do say that God made the universe, God's the underlying force behind it, God is a spirit."

 

"Do you believe in God?" I'd affirm that I did. After the unavoidable "Why?" I'd say that I felt that I'd felt and experienced God, that the way everything clicks together so perfectly in this world makes me think of some great Supreme Law or Genius behind it. But of course that was just my own opinion. He isn't required to take it. I'd rather he didn't and formed his own on his own judgements. I wouldn't raise a child to believe in God, but I wouldn't shield him from doing so, either.

 

Anybody who wants their kids to grow up with prejudices shouldn't be raising kids. I wouldn't say something like, "Christians are so stupid and awful," because I wouldn't want him to call the Christian kids at school stupid and awful - I'd want him to judge each person on their individual merits and personalities. I wouldn't tell him that Muslims are terrorists, either. Let him experience the world in his own experience rather than what I dictate to him.

[Poonis]

I'll take your "raising kids to be atheists" and raise you an axiomatic "I don't and won't have kids".

[AtheistMommy]

Even if you don't try to teach your children what you believe you still teach them. They learn by example for the first years of their lives. You cannot change that, you can only change you.

 

My son is only 4 but full of questions. Most of his brithdays have been held at museums. He's already in love with science. We do our best to answer his questions and let him know that when you don't know the answer it's ok to say so. In fact you can find the answer by reading or asking someonelse.

 

As for learning about other religions, they learn about chritianity though their extended family who are all christians. They learn about different beliefs thanks to disney, take a good gander at a few of their movies. It's about other beliefs.

 

My son loves magic, but understands it's not real. Things don't really happen that way.

 

IMO, you teach your children the values you hold dear. What you believe is moral and that you will always love them. That is all they need.

[The Sage Nabooru]

They learn about different beliefs thanks to disney, take a good gander at a few of their movies. It's about other beliefs.

 

I wouldn't depend on that. Does your child think Arabian Muslim women wear head-to-toe black robes, or aqua-blue pajama pants with a matching bikini top?

 

(I know I thought the latter until I was a teenager......)

[AtheistMommy]

 

I wouldn't depend on that. Does your child think Arabian Muslim women wear head-to-toe black robes, or aqua-blue pajama pants with a matching bikini top?

 

(I know I thought the latter until I was a teenager......)

 

He's seen women around the area with head to toe robes. He's asked about them and being that he's the son of Reverend Atheistar, got an ear full about it.

 

I don't depend on the movies, I think their a good addition. Besides, if you didn't notice in the first Aladan movie Jasmin goes out of to the village whearing a something that covered her from head to toe.

 

I depend more on history.

[The Sage Nabooru]

I don't depend on the movies, I think their a good addition. Besides, if you didn't notice in the first Aladan movie Jasmin goes out of to the village whearing a something that covered her from head to toe.

 

Yes, but she was wearing big dangly gold earrings, which were ornaments, and thus should only be shown before her husband and male members of her immediate family. And she didn't cover her face.

 

I remember as a little kid hearing the King in Aladdin say "Praise Allah!" and "Allah forbid you have any daughters." What the hell was an "Allah"? And looking back on that, and the giant comical blue genie, it kinda makes me wonder why there weren't people screaming for the death of Disney for "trivializing Islam".

[Young Mother Atheist]

Personally, I think if you have to be 18 to vote, you should be close to that before being exposed to mind-control. Brainwashing kids is practically child abuse.

 

I realize you're not doing that, but there is no need to resort to god stories. There are plenty of moral-teaching fables that are non-religious. But ultimately they will learn from the ongoing example you set, not from stories you read to them.

 

I am expecting my first child in July and so my fiancee and I have done a lot of thinking on this. I think you should expose them to creation stories and stories from other religions like native american tales (or anything else). Ellen B. Jackson writes some incredible books of other religions' stories as well as a series on the seasonal changes and customs that are practiced with them around the world. She also writes a book called the Tree of Life on evolution. Good for atheist or agnostic parents and kids.

 

My husband and I thought that exposing a child to gods and to atheism would be wrong because it might indoctrinate them. However, we realized that if we didn't at least present the idea and teach them to think for themselves they would be in greater danger of getting into a cult or a fundy religion later on. Since you've studied dev. psych you know that the average child cannot understand abstract ideas until...I think 10 or so? Keep that in mind as well.

 

A good way to teach children morals and integrity, or least how we plan on doing it, is to involve them in humanitarian activities. Volunteer work, donating their things a couple times of year, and an appreciation for relationships instead of material things would all help, I think. I agree that the example you set for them is important.

 

I also wouldn't hide your atheism. You need to discuss this with them and have open communication on all topics with your children. That way, when they have questions about god or religions later on, they will feel open to talk to you about it. Also consider that all children are born atheists. They only learn about god and religion from the world. You are not making them an atheist by sharing yours and encouraging them (an instructing them as to how) to think for themselves.

 

That is my opinion and I hope it works for us! It's tough (I come from the same type of background) but reason will guide you as to what's best.

[08 hawk]

I would teach my kid to be skeptical about everything. I want him or her to have the choice on what he or she believes...Not what is force fed to them by society

 

You said it perfectly. It's like Christians and the Harry Potter books. 99% of them have probaley never have read one word in those books in their life. They just go by what their freaking Priest says.

[AgnosticBob AtheistPants]

I have an especially difficult time with this subject because my children live with their fundamentalist mother and her new fundy husband. Him I don't know so much about other than he's the son of a preacher and my ex just LOVES that.

 

My ex however I know all about; Tongue-talking, non-drinking, bible-toting, southern gospel singing fundamentalist. To top it off, they live in the buckle of the bible belt...small town Alabama where everyone knows your business before you do. Her mother is the same...although I've never seen her speak in tongues. (BTW, she lives less than a half mile from her mother and likes it that way).

 

My children are getting a thorough indoctrination into fundamentalist christianity and there's not much I can do about it. I don't want to come at it as an attack on what their mother is teaching them, but I hate sitting helplessly by while they are brainwashed and have no chance to make up their own minds. They are still young...7 and 4. I won't come right out and tell them that there is no god because I don't want to push my beliefs onto them.

 

My son has asked me if I don't believe in Jesus (so I can only assume that the Ex has been planting seeds in his head about me) and I told him that I don't. He didn't go into any more on the subject, so I just let it die. I'll let him ask more when he is ready.

 

Strawberry said

"There is, however, a huge difference in a person doing the right thing b/c mom, or society, encourages that behavior, and a person doing the right thing b/c of integrity and morality."

 

I have to disagree. I think your "integrity and morality" develop based precisely on what "mom or society" encourages. These things are absolutely objective and will not be the same from person to person without some sort of similar environmental and societal stimuli. So how do you instill the ideals you want your kids to emulate without the use of a "god" watching over them to make them afraid to act any other way? Just model the behavior for them. I believe that's the single most effective way to teach your kids the way they should behave.