Fundies And Empty Churches

[Guest Emerson]

I have a q. We hear about how people are leaving churches, for example, I think it was during last xmas, when they were having mass in Europe, especially Italy, they were saying that people were leaving the Catholic church and disagreeing over things like birth control, because the people believe in it but not the Pope and church leaders. This also extends beyond the Catholic church to mainstream churches.

 

But I also hear of the fundies and that the mega churches are growing and how their trying to evangelise and "try to win people for jesus." So yes, how does that measure up? Does anyone have any resources that I can look up? If the churches are "emptying" then why is it so many people have fundy beliefs? I think it was obvious how fundy this country was in election 2004, although I am starting to see stories of people who regret voting for him on the papers, but still, he has a huge following from the xian right.

[Thurisaz]

Methinks more and more people are drawing the consequences... some of them throw all belief overboard, others find that their blind faith is more important to them than truth and go fundie.

 

At least that's how it seems over here...with the first group definitely being the majority.

[Amethyst]

Methinks more and more people are drawing the consequences... some of them throw all belief overboard, others find that their blind faith is more important to them than truth and go fundie.

 

At least that's how it seems over here...with the first group definitely being the majority.

 

I agree. People seem to be having two opposite reactions, either giving up their beliefs or going overboard with fundyism. The religion is dying, and when only the fundies are left and everyone else with a modicrum of courage realizes that they don't need to be part of the cult, it will die.

 

I think it'll happen within the next few generations. Probably not when the baby boomers die, but probably when the gen-xers or our kids do. I think the gen-xers will be the last generation that's mostly brainwashed into it. More and more families aren't going to church on a regular basis because they've realized that it's a myth, and that there is no hell where they'll be burned forever if they don't go. Most people would rather sleep in on Sundays, and they don't feel imminent fear or guilt about it, so that's what they'll do.

 

Plus there are other social outlets now. A hundred years ago, even 50 years ago, there weren't very many places other than church for people to socialize (at least, in the US). It was either the church or your local bar. And there's also the Internet now.

[Artur]

*

[Light_of_Reason]

I don't know if the religion will ever die. Remember that Jefferson thought quite strongly that belief in the myths of religion would die within a couple generations after his life, because of the strength of reasoning that was coming out of his times. And he likely would have been correct if not for something referred to as the "Great Awakening" and later the "Second Great Awakening," where religious belief became stronger.

 

Christianity has a history of bouncing back at just the right moment when the chips are stacked against it, and people start to think it will be down for the count.

 

Besides, as Artur aptly points out, it is predominantly the mainline denominations that are losing members while the more militant and fundamentalist groups are actually growing.

 

And to me that doesn't look so much like the death throes of religion. Rather, it loooks like a growing rebellion against intellectualism and humanist philosophy.

[pandora]

I think it has more to do with the fact that evangelicals/fundies are a different breed than the mainliners. Mainline churches are definitely losing numbers, but evangelical churches are growing. I'm not sure where you could find stats to back this up, though.

[Vigile]

I don't know if the religion will ever die. Remember that Jefferson thought quite strongly that belief in the myths of religion would die within a couple generations after his life, because of the strength of reasoning that was coming out of his times. And he likely would have been correct if not for something referred to as the "Great Awakening" and later the "Second Great Awakening," where religious belief became stronger.

 

But it is dying out in Europe. Christianity is not the same animal here in Europe. It's more tradition than dogma. I think it strengthens or weakens with the level of education. Americans in general are undereducated compared to most Europeans, therefore are more susceptible.

[Lycorth]

The hardcore fundies only appear to be growing, I think. I see no evidence to suggest that America is falling under some sort of fundygelical sway. Fundy and mainline churches both are seeing far more parishoners depart than come in.

 

There may have been "great awakenings" of the past, but back then, the only weapon against Xianity was reason. Now we have reason and evidence. Today, there is much more evidence against Xianity than ever before. There are more things which invalidate the religion both historically and culturally, and ethically Xianity has its ass in a corner. Different religious ideas are growing far faster, and people are turning away from the cult in droves, or just not bothering to enter it in the first place. Fundy Xianity is losing steam, and even though it's still dangerous as a fatally wounded feral animal is dangerous, it will still die.

 

Fundy Is-lame is far more pressing. Its survival is independent of Xianity's and unlike all but the most rabid Xian, most serious Mooselims don't seem to be keen to listening to reason or other positions. The crescent is the real problem today, not the cross - though both must still be fought, since both still exist beyond a tiny fringe minority of the population.

 

I just find it impossible to swallow that Xianity of any stripe is growing.

[Young Mother Atheist]

If Fundamentalism is growing ( I don't know if it is or not ) it is easy to see why. The fundies offer feel good sermons and worship services. They play on people's emotions in these music worship services using the powerful influence of music on the brain to make people think they are experiencing God (I've had first hand experience with this as a worship leader). Also, the fear of hell is something a lot of people are not willing to mess around with. I have heard more people than I can name to say that it is better to live like there is a God and find out there isn't than to live like there isn't a God and find out there is. These people are too scared to deny the religion, even just to question, that they just stay. And the longer they stay, the more they attend church and feel accepted by a group of peers, the more likely they are to continue to stay. They get sucked in. This has so many social psychology applications it isn't even funny. And because "Godly people" are supposed to be trustworthy, most fundy followers will listen to their pastors and eat up everything they say as the absolute truth, even though we know often time sermons and instruction are given to keep people believing and make them scared of leaving. It is really kind of sad to me. I hate watching this happen to people I care about. Almost all of my friends in my life are Christians and are still very much sucked into the lies of the church, especially concerning political and moral issues. They are so blinded.

 

Anyway, that's my opinion.

[Asuryan]

I have a q. We hear about how people are leaving churches, for example, I think it was during last xmas, when they were having mass in Europe, especially Italy, they were saying that people were leaving the Catholic church and disagreeing over things like birth control, because the people believe in it but not the Pope and church leaders.

 

 

 

I really want to remind something I've said somewhere else:

 

1) Italian christians are catholics. I don't think there's more than 0.1% protestants here.

 

2) Italian catholics know NOTHING about their bible and gospels. Believe me on that. NOTHING. They know absolutely NOTHING, exception made for the things they've learned at sunday school (which stops at 10 yrs and mostly consists of telling biblical cute stories "rewritten" for small children, absolutely different from the real deal). The standard Italian Catholic has never... and I want to underline it, NEVER, read even ONE fucking gospel from beginning to end. No one encourages Italian Catholics to do so, actually reading an italian bible was FORBIDDEN, yes, you've read it right, it was forbidden from about 1000 AD until about 1970 AD. As a result, italians just don't know a fucking THING about their bibles.

 

3) Italian catholics are stopping going to the Mass because they don't have a real reason to go there. Italian catholicism is all about tradition, about repeating prayers like the Pater Noster and the Ave Maria, about repetitions of rituals. Plus, remember the sacrament of confessions and the concept of Purgatory that the church has and spreads: why should you waste your sundays going to church? Or giving to charity? Or avoiding committing adultery or rape? You can always repent on your deathbed. And even if you die before you manage to repent, you'll only end up in Purgatory, where you'll stay for a bit, and then go straight to heaven (and lo! If your relatives donate to the church for some Masses in your name, your stay in purgatory will become even shorter! Glory!). Nothing to worry about - catholicism is a sort of FreePass to heaven, assuming you vote the political party the church tells you to vote, and you abstain from divorce and using contraceptives.

 

N.B. for catholicism, divorcing is VERY BAD. Even if you repent, there's no forgiveness for you, until you remarry the person you've divorced from in the first place. Raping someone and then confessing the sin and asking for forgiveness, though, is OK. You'll get in heaven for sure that way.

 

 

 

The number of uncultured people that went to church only because they were scared by their parents with threats like "You'll go to HELL!" is dwindling as they get older and older. As the cultural level of my country increases, less and less people go to church or even find it useful to go there.

[Thurisaz]

But it is dying out in Europe. Christianity is not the same animal here in Europe. It's more tradition than dogma. I think it strengthens or weakens with the level of education. Americans in general are undereducated compared to most Europeans, therefore are more susceptible.

 

True for all I know. Considering the Flood (pun intended) of moronic babble from hardcore fundies I see daily (Yeah I know, I should stop reading www.fstdt.com ) I have a hard time not to write off the whole of the 4th reich as a land of idiocy.

But then, when I come here (or to places like alt.atheism) I see that not all hope is lost

 

 

If Fundamentalism is growing ( I don't know if it is or not ) it is easy to see why. The fundies offer feel good sermons and worship services. They play on people's emotions in these music worship services using the powerful influence of music on the brain to make people think they are experiencing God (I've had first hand experience with this as a worship leader).

 

Correct. When I first tuned in to the trinutty brainwashing numbnuts (TBN) my first thought was not of a church service at all, but of the very same method the moustached madman used back in its times here in Germany. Get maaaaany people together, pump them full of emotion until reason says "nah, far too crazy in here, I'll go outside for a while", and make them nod to everything you say - or actually everything you scream.

The fuel for fundyism is anti-reason poison. Without it, the whole charade will break down pretty fast.

 

Also, the fear of hell is something a lot of people are not willing to mess around with. I have heard more people than I can name to say that it is better to live like there is a God and find out there isn't than to live like there isn't a God and find out there is. These people are too scared to deny the religion, even just to question, that they just stay. And the longer they stay, the more they attend church and feel accepted by a group of peers, the more likely they are to continue to stay. They get sucked in. This has so many social psychology applications it isn't even funny.

 

Peer/fear pressure. Indeed.

 

 

2) Italian catholics know NOTHING about their bible and gospels. Believe me on that. NOTHING. They know absolutely NOTHING, exception made for the things they've learned at sunday school (which stops at 10 yrs and mostly consists of telling biblical cute stories "rewritten" for small children, absolutely different from the real deal). The standard Italian Catholic has never... and I want to underline it, NEVER, read even ONE fucking gospel from beginning to end.

 

Add the vast majority of German christians (of both denominations I trust) to that list while you're at it. I should know, having been one long enough

 

Unfortunately, the concept of babblical literalism is all but unknown here too, so you can't really shock someone into deconversion by leading her to the shit in the book. Chances are that she'll just shrug and say "Oh well, that's obviously nonsense" and go to church again next... err... xmas.

[♦ ficino ♦]

But it is dying out in Europe. Christianity is not the same animal here in Europe. It's more tradition than dogma. I think it strengthens or weakens with the level of education. Americans in general are undereducated compared to most Europeans, therefore are more susceptible.

 

Vigile, I've heard that Christianity is making a comeback in Russia, both Orthodox and protestant fundies. Is this true?

 

As to Europeans, I wonder whether another reason is that Europe has had a stronger working-class identity than in the US. Sinclair Lewis said that two groups that resist fundyism are intellectuals and skilled workers.