Advice Please

[AtheistMommy]

I've been debating this guy who asked why anyone would want to be an Atheist. I'm pretty sure I answered his question but he isn't interested. What he really wants to do is debate about "where we came from." Below is the last email I've gotten from him. I've yet to answer it, mostly because I have been busy with school. But I wanted to ask for advice. How would you answer these questions?

 

*************************

Where did the sun come from?

 

Water is our source of life, Where did that come from?

 

Where did all the gases come from? They were not just here.

 

The universe is still there. Which contradicts directly of what the bible says. So we couldn't have come out of "nothing" if there was something there to start with.

 

The universe would not have just been here. It does not make sense that it would have just been here but there is no way God could have just been here. If there is no God then the starting point would have to be nothing because every time you name something it would have to have come from somwhere. But if God created the universe then the laws of science and math would not apply to Him because He had to create them.

 

Gravity exists in space also. If it didn't moons would not orbit planets and planets wouldn't orbit large stars like the sun.

 

The moon orbits the earth because of the earths gravity not spaces gravity. Space has no gravity.

 

I believe God exists.

******************************

[RedPillAddict]

Man...people are just plain stupid...and lazy. So he is basically saying that he believes in God because he is too lazy to take a basic course in physics, astronomy, earth science, etc. He could go to Barnes and Noble and pay 15$ for a book that would cover most of those questions...Instead he just sits back and says "I wonder why _____?".

[Guest xandore]

I don't know what to tell you but I do know what he is doing.....

 

[RedPillAddict]

The Sun and planets formed about 4.5 billion years ago from a massive cloud of hydrogen, helium, and pinches of heavier elements like oxygen, carbon, nitrogen, silicon, and iron. As the material in the cloud clumped together, its gravity pulled in even more material, so the clumps grew larger and larger. At the center of this cloud, the largest clump became a "protostar" -- a glowing cloud that is not yet a full-fledged star. Gravity compressed the core of this collapsing ball of gas until its own temperature and pressure were high enough to begin fusing hydrogen into helium at its core, causing the Sun to release energy. Our star was born.

 

The material left over from the Sun's creation existed as gases and tiny mineral grains (dust) throughout the cloud, and frozen gases in the cooler, outer parts of the cloud. In the inner, hotter regions the dust grains of heavier elements came together to form Mercury, Venus, Earth, and Mars (the terrestrial planets). In colder regions farther from the Sun, frozen water, methane, and ammonia added their material to the growing planets. These outer planets grew so large so quickly that their gravities attracted the nearby hydrogen and helium gases as well. These gases are now the main ingredients in Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune: giant planets that may have small, rocky cores beneath thousands of miles of clouds. Pluto is made of ice (frozen water, methane, and ammonia) mixed with rock.

Fom Here

 

there are literally billions of other stars in the universe...just like our sun. Our solar system formed the same as all the others.

 

More here

 

And of course...good ol Wikipedia!

 

If there is no God then the starting point would have to be nothing because every time you name something it would have to have come from somwhere.

 

THen where exactly did "God" come from? By stating God has always been here, he hasnt solved anything. God is a starting point? How is that possible...God would have to be a mid-point because something has to have been there before him. In enough time we may figure out where the universe came from...but Christians state that in the "beginning" there was only God and that leaves no room for the discovery of new information.

[jjacksonRIAB]

I've been debating this guy who asked why anyone would want to be an Atheist. I'm pretty sure I answered his question but he isn't interested. What he really wants to do is debate about "where we came from." Below is the last email I've gotten from him. I've yet to answer it, mostly because I have been busy with school. But I wanted to ask for advice. How would you answer these questions?

 

*************************

Where did the sun come from?

 

Water is our source of life, Where did that come from?

 

Where did all the gases come from? They were not just here.

 

The universe is still there. Which contradicts directly of what the bible says. So we couldn't have come out of "nothing" if there was something there to start with.

 

The universe would not have just been here. It does not make sense that it would have just been here but there is no way God could have just been here. If there is no God then the starting point would have to be nothing because every time you name something it would have to have come from somwhere. But if God created the universe then the laws of science and math would not apply to Him because He had to create them.

 

Gravity exists in space also. If it didn't moons would not orbit planets and planets wouldn't orbit large stars like the sun.

 

The moon orbits the earth because of the earths gravity not spaces gravity. Space has no gravity.

 

I believe God exists.

******************************

 

To paraphrase:

 

All things that exist have a beginning, therefore God exists.

 

If God exists, he has a beginning, therefore he is not God.

If God has no beginning, he doesn't exist.

 

I hate it when people try to hide God within a paradox. It's like summoning a black hole to swallow your argument and then pretending their argument wasn't swallowed as well.

[Joyous1]

I've been debating this guy who asked why anyone would want to be an Atheist.

 

That's like asking a child why they "want" to stop believing in Santa Claus. I really WANT to believe in a loving God who answers prayers, forgives our mistakes, and helps us to be better human beings. I just don't see any consistent, reproducible evidence of such a being.

[AtheistMommy]

LOL! I've already explain so many things to him, I'm a little tired of explaining. Yet he continues to ask me the "where did this come from" question over and over on everything I say.

 

He thinks humans were made out of monkeys. He actually said "monkeys turned into humans" to whcih I replied, it's not magic it's evolution.

 

But yeah, I'm having a hard time seeing his point. I've already told him if we have a maker and that maker is god than god has a maker and his makers have a maker and so on. After all, everything has to have a maker, right?

 

It's frustrating. Thank you for your comments.

[white_raven23]

The answer to each of those is.... "I don't know, and neither do you."

 

And you turn right around and ask him....."Since you think god is real....Where did HE come from?"

 

And whe he says "we cannot know" or some flowery bullshit that essentially means "don't know", the ask why not knowing that is perfectly acceptable, but he doesn't have the patience for science to catch up to completely to answer HIS questions, and so he thinks "goddidit" is an acceptable answer? It's a double standard and it's complete BS.

[Ouroboros]

IIRC, when Descartes was thinking about that everything needed a Creator, and he got to the question if God also had a Creator, then he denied the idea with the explanation "that's ridiculous."

 

What kind of argument is that? Logic and reason ends where things get ridiculous to one party? That in itself is ridiculous!

 

I love the part when a Christian say "the world is so perfect and organized so it must have been designed by a creator", then of course the question is "is God perfect and organized too?" If he is, he must be created, if he isn't created, then he isn't perfect and organized.

[jjacksonRIAB]

LOL! I've already explain so many things to him, I'm a little tired of explaining. Yet he continues to ask me the "where did this come from" question over and over on everything I say.

 

He thinks humans were made out of monkeys. He actually said "monkeys turned into humans" to whcih I replied, it's not magic it's evolution.

 

But yeah, I'm having a hard time seeing his point. I've already told him if we have a maker and that maker is god than god has a maker and his makers have a maker and so on. After all, everything has to have a maker, right?

 

It's frustrating. Thank you for your comments.

 

According to what I've read, we did not actually originate from apes; we descended from a common ancestor.

 

Arguments like these are precisely why I don't bother anymore. Some people just find the scientific rationale insufficient and gravitate towards other "solutions". That's good. I'll just stick with what I know (and many deny) works.

[Ouroboros]

LOL! I've already explain so many things to him, I'm a little tired of explaining. Yet he continues to ask me the "where did this come from" question over and over on everything I say.

 

He thinks humans were made out of monkeys. He actually said "monkeys turned into humans" to whcih I replied, it's not magic it's evolution.

Ask him where all the different kinds of dogs came from, like dalmatians or poodles. Did Noah bring them all on the ark, or did they evolve after the flood? Did Noah bring all hundreds of thousands of species on the ark, or did he bring just of each "kind" and then all those species evolved afterwards? Ask him where the genes for all the eye colors came from, Adam couldn't have had blue, brown, green etc simultaneous in his Y-chromosome.

[greygirl]

Reminds me of a debate I had once with a Mormon classmate. He wanted to know what I thought happened when we die. I said I think logically that death is probably the end, and there's just nothing after this life. However, I want to believe that there's some kind of continuation and if there is, reincarnation makes a lot of sense to me, and I believe that's a possibility.

 

His next question: "Were you a pencil in a past life?"

 

People like that aren't interested in learning or knowing what you really think. They're interested in browbeating you with what they believe until you agree with them.

[garrisonjj]

I've been debating this guy who asked why anyone would want to be an Atheist. I'm pretty sure I answered his question but he isn't interested. What he really wants to do is debate about "where we came from." Below is the last email I've gotten from him. I've yet to answer it, mostly because I have been busy with school. But I wanted to ask for advice. How would you answer these questions?

 

*************************

Where did the sun come from?

 

Water is our source of life, Where did that come from?

 

Where did all the gases come from? They were not just here.

 

The universe is still there. Which contradicts directly of what the bible says. So we couldn't have come out of "nothing" if there was something there to start with.

 

The universe would not have just been here. It does not make sense that it would have just been here but there is no way God could have just been here. If there is no God then the starting point would have to be nothing because every time you name something it would have to have come from somwhere. But if God created the universe then the laws of science and math would not apply to Him because He had to create them.

 

Gravity exists in space also. If it didn't moons would not orbit planets and planets wouldn't orbit large stars like the sun.

 

The moon orbits the earth because of the earths gravity not spaces gravity. Space has no gravity.

 

I believe God exists.

******************************

 

 

To be honest,I don't think you can prove or disprove god. I personally see little evidence of him.

[Taphophilia]

The monkey thing is a pet peeve of mine and shows the guy has no clue about evolution. Monkeys have tails, apes do not. They are entirely different, and apes eat monkeys as a food source for meat. We are a type of ape and are not decended from any apes that exist today. The apes, including us, are modern animals and we are not decended from any modern animal. Ask him what the hell do monkeys have to do with anything?

 

Also, to blanketly say goddidit, is not an acceptable answer.

 

Taph

[AtheistMommy]

The monkey thing is a pet peeve of mine and shows the guy has no clue about evolution. Monkeys have tails, apes do not. They are entirely different, and apes eat monkeys as a food source for meat. We are a type of ape and are not decended from any apes that exist today. The apes, including us, are modern animals and we are not decended from any modern animal. Ask him what the hell do monkeys have to do with anything?

 

Also, to blanketly say goddidit, is not an acceptable answer.

 

Taph

 

You and my husband both. Yeah, I was laughing when I read the bit about monkeys. But it's such a common misconception. A few months ago I got into a little argument with this guy at school about the same thing.

 

Here's the latest reply from him:

 

In a message dated 5/16/2006 1:47:31 PM Central America Standard Tim

 

How is nothing a starting point? Nothing doesnt make a cloud of helium or hydrogen. When did they find the fossil of that "common ancestor?"

 

 

To be honest,I don't think you can prove or disprove god. I personally see little evidence of him.

 

The lack of evidence for gives us reason to believe that a god or goddess does not and has not existed. How do you prove an item that doesn't exist, doesn't exist? You don't have proof for it's existance because it doesn't exist. But for that same reason you don't have proof against it.

 

However, the bible is the biggest strike against the christian god. The fact that the book was written by man, full of countless contraditions, and changed a million times is good proof against an all powerful, all knowing, all loving god.

 

The fact that when god is called he doesn't show unless your mentally ill, just really ill, or on drugs is some good proof against.

 

Then looking into how the brain works helps aid with why these stories of gods and goddesses are false. Just look into the frontal lobe, you'll find a lot about religious beliefs and how they are connected to the frontal lobe.

 

 

Reminds me of a debate I had once with a Mormon classmate. He wanted to know what I thought happened when we die. I said I think logically that death is probably the end, and there's just nothing after this life. However, I want to believe that there's some kind of continuation and if there is, reincarnation makes a lot of sense to me, and I believe that's a possibility.

 

His next question: "Were you a pencil in a past life?"

 

People like that aren't interested in learning or knowing what you really think. They're interested in browbeating you with what they believe until you agree with them.

 

Exactly! I've tried to reason with him and it's like trying to reason with my 4 year old. It's just not getting though clearly. Plus he's not really interested. He thinks he's proving his point or something to me. Meanwhile I feel like the only one who's not drinking in our debate.

[willybilly30]

ask him the famous athiest question:

if god made everything who made god?

[AtheistMommy]

ask him the famous athiest question:

if god made everything who made god?

 

I have, twice so far. no answer

[Reverend AtheiStar]

THen where exactly did "God" come from? By stating God has always been here, he hasnt solved anything. God is a starting point? How is that possible...God would have to be a mid-point because something has to have been there before him. In enough time we may figure out where the universe came from...but Christians state that in the "beginning" there was only God and that leaves no room for the discovery of new information.

 

I've always liked the question that went after what God did for the eternity before anything was created. lol... How boring! According to their mythology, he always was. Well, what occupied his time? What fun would it be to be the only one? Did God have imaginary freinds? lol...

[willybilly30]

lol no christian can answer that lol the ongly way to answer that would be to say god has parents winch would put gods over him thats a big nono lol. they always ignore questions like that.

[Asimov]

I've been debating this guy who asked why anyone would want to be an Atheist. I'm pretty sure I answered his question but he isn't interested. What he really wants to do is debate about "where we came from." Below is the last email I've gotten from him. I've yet to answer it, mostly because I have been busy with school. But I wanted to ask for advice. How would you answer these questions?

 

First I'd point out that the inability to answer anyone of these questions does not preclude the existence of God, it just shows that if you do insert a God into the gaps of our knowledge, you are committing a fallacy.

 

*************************

Where did the sun come from?

 

The sun developed from a nebula collapsing in on itself.

 

Water is our source of life, Where did that come from?

 

Hydrogen and oxygen.

 

Where did all the gases come from? They were not just here.

 

The elements formed out of the big bang, forming the first stars. The process of fusion, creating the stars also created the byproduct of the heavier elements.

 

The universe is still there. Which contradicts directly of what the bible says. So we couldn't have come out of "nothing" if there was something there to start with.

 

Yes, the big bang is simply the beginning of space/time, and uncaused event which occured 13.7 billion years ago. While it is possible that the universe could have come out of a quantum vacuum, it is also just as possible that the universe has always existed in some form or another.

 

The universe would not have just been here. It does not make sense that it would have just been here but there is no way God could have just been here. If there is no God then the starting point would have to be nothing because every time you name something it would have to have come from somwhere. But if God created the universe then the laws of science and math would not apply to Him because He had to create them.

 

The laws of science are only general observations that have been repeatedly observed and established as a law. Mathematical principles necessarily exist. 1+1=2 is a necessary concept and is transcendant of everything.

 

Gravity exists in space also. If it didn't moons would not orbit planets and planets wouldn't orbit large stars like the sun.

 

What the fuck is this persons point.

 

The moon orbits the earth because of the earths gravity not spaces gravity. Space has no gravity.

 

Again, so fuckin what?

 

I believe God exists.

That's because you're an idiot.

[Reverend AtheiStar]

To be honest,I don't think you can prove or disprove god. I personally see little evidence of him.

 

I think all gods and goddesses can be disproved. First, though, you must look at the definition for "prove" and "evidence." Here's a short essay I wrote for this very subject:

 

http://www.reverendatheistar.com/proving.htm

 

Proving & Evidence

 

prove v. To establish the truth or validity of by presentation of argument or evidence.

 

ev·i·dence n. A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment.

 

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I have often said that given the right audience you can prove anything! This sounds strange only because we all have our own idea of what "proven" means. We all also see "evidence" as something different, some needing it to be complex, detailed and virtually irrefutable while others will readily rely on personal testimony and appeals to emotion. Take children and the existence of Santa Claus, for example. Children, relying the testimony of their parents, relatives and friends, believe wholeheartedly in this fictional being. They even have physical evidence in the way of presents and hand written letters -- if the parents want to go that far. Add to this the plethora of movies, books and commercials which represent this character as real and it's extremely rare they're not convinced. To them, Santa is totally proven. Believers in gods and goddesses start out the same way. They rely on the testimony of their parents and consider the entire universe as evidence of these beings' existence. This is further cemented using daily rituals that involve these beings, attendance to services and parochial schools, reading from the holy book and even simple things such as wearing the symbol of the religion around their neck. To the believers, their gods and goddesses are proven.

 

Given the subjective nature of proving and evidence how is it that we constantly hear that something can't be proven or disproved? To understand the answer to this we must realize what is meant when these words are used. For example, Christians will say that the Atheist cannot prove that their god doesn't exist. What is really meant by this is that it can't be proved to them. We, the nonbelievers, cannot "establish the truth or validity of" our statement "by presentation of argument or evidence," in their view, because they are already convinced of the opposite. Our arguments and evidence, though completely convincing to us, usually fall on deaf ears.

 

It is because of this subjectivity that I try, now, to avoid using statements that say something "can't be proven" or that something "has no evidence". These phrases are so subjective that I now realize they're totally useless. Everyone has some kind of evidence -- otherwise they couldn't believe what they do. It's just a matter of who's is more convincing and in the case of Atheism, logical.

[Asimov]

ask him the famous athiest question:

if god made everything who made god?

 

That's not a famous atheist question. That's a terrible question.

[Reverend AtheiStar]

To be honest,I don't think you can prove or disprove god. I personally see little evidence of him.

 

http://www.reverendatheistar.com/proving_a_negative.htm

 

It has been said by believer and nonbeliever alike that you can't disprove gods and goddesses because of the Sacred Rule. This rule, championed to be undefeatable, states that "You can't prove a negative." It was said with such strength of belief that few dare to challenge it. I was one of those few. I realized, after reading a very enlightening article, that this statement is totally illogical because it contradicts itself! If you can't prove a negative then how can you prove that you can't prove one?!

 

And so, with this barrier obliterated, I set out to prove this elusive negative by first proving a positive...

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Before I get started on the evidence for all deities' imaginary status, and hence against their existence, I must explain my position a bit further. I want to make it clear that I am not saying that such things are impossible. To say that would take infinite knowledge and this is something that I am severely lacking. What I am saying is that these beings can be safely relegated to a dark abyss of improbability so exponentially massive that it becomes incomprehensible. This is what I mean when I say that gods' and goddesses' nonexistence can be proved. The process by which they are sent is what I shall attempt to explain, in detail, at this time.

 

 

All gods and goddesses, the statistically small monotheistic deities included, carry with them the tell tale signs of human literary invention: anthropomorphism. This is the tendency of our species to attribute human traits to just about anything. You can see this very clearly in what exactly was deified by early man. They looked at the sun and saw a god. They looked at the moon and saw a goddess. Our entire planet became a "mother" while the sky became a "father." Volcanoes, the name being derived from the Roman god of fire, were explained by the workings of gods and goddesses. Storms, earthquakes, tidal waves, floods all became imbued with anthropomorphism and were given specific gods and goddesses to explain them. Anything and everything that was lacking an explanation received a deity. Much like in modern times, though the ancients had a much better excuse, it was the easy way out of finding the real answer. What is the origin of our species? Gods did it!

 

Anthropomorphism can also be seen in the gods' behavior. These beings, who are supposed to be so perfect, act identical to the ruling class in our human societies -- with many parallels easily seen to modern politicians! This can be seen in great capacity with the gods and goddesses of the Greeks and Romans. They loved, fought, warred, cheated and even drank to intoxication! The whole Olympian pantheon wreaked of human soap opera. And indeed it was.

 

 

These beings, while believed to be disproved by a great multitude of modern people, were real enough to the ancients to get any freethinking Athenian in deep trouble if he dared even question a sacrifice made unto one of these imaginary friends, much less their very existence. In 399 B.C.E, Socrates was condemned by a 500 man Athenian jury, in part, because they believed the accusation that he was guilty of "not worshipping the gods whom the state worships." Anaxagoras, his predecessor, was sentenced to death for simply teaching that the sun and moon were natural objects and not gods! He fled into exile. Protagoras was banished from Athens for being openly agnostic in his books. His books were burned, he died at sea.

 

The consequences for denying the big three monotheistic deities of modern times can be just as severe, mainly I would say because of the psychotic personalities of these fictional characters -- more evidence of anthropomorphism. These male deities act just like very immature, yet powerful, human kings who are constantly throwing temper tantrums if they don't get their way. They all say they are very jealous of other gods. That's a very human emotion. Kings, wanting to be the most powerful in their territory, and the world when they've taken control of all of their local land, have traditionally tried to take out other kings. It would make them especially jealous if the people in their kingdom favored another king over them. They get mad at the slightest irritation and kill thousands. They take what they want and act totally opposite of the rules the common people are supposed to follow because they feel they have the right to do such things simply because they have the authority to do so. They even use bribes that utilize their alleged vast wealth to gain followers and motivate people to go so far as killing. On the other side of the scale, the characters in these popular mythologies will also use threats of violence, all the while under the guise of being loving, to meet their ends. All of these character traits prove, to me, that our gods are actually an enlarged version of the terror our human kings have bestowed upon the populace.

 

The same goes for the goddesses. Human queens have been just as cruel as their male counterparts in leadership positions. Kali, the Hindu goddess of destruction comes to mind. I can only imagine the type of woman she was based on. A woman like that would make kings shudder with fear of her approach. Usually, though, the female deity embodies the positive aspects of the female gender. Aphrodite, the Greek goddess of love, would have been based on either a seductress or someone who was very positive and kind, or maybe both. A queen such as her would treat her subjects well. There have been rulers such as these, though, sadly they probably were taken out by the stronger, more aggressive contenders.

 

The same trend can be seen in what's popular today. Is it the entirely peaceful religions that have prevailed? No. It has been the evil religions, with the frightening consequences for insubordination, that have succeeded in getting the most followers. They have done this by taking some peaceful elements and wrapping their religions in them to cloak what is really there. That way, you get both type of people. The violent, sadistic people can enjoy the darker side, which comprises the majority, while the peaceful can enjoy the loving side which is scattered throughout the religion. This is the model that has worked because this is the same model that has also worked with our human leaders. The strong survive. The weak perish.

 

It all makes perfect sense when seen through the lens of anthropomorphism. Humans, without any of our modern knowledge that science has given us, were totally ignorant and in awe of their surroundings. To compensate they used what they knew as a reference. They used themselves and their lives to try to make a cohesive explanation of their universe.

 

To further illustrate these beings anthropomorphic roots one need only take a look at what these beings were supposed to look like! The Japanese gods looked Japanese. The Indian gods looked Indian. The Mexican gods, Mexican. In our culture you still see this with the blond haired, blue eyed, pasty faced Jesus that is so radically incorrect for a person who was supposed to have been born in the Middle East! Could it be any more obvious?!

 

(continued on site)

 

 

ask him the famous athiest question:

if god made everything who made god?

 

That's not a famous atheist question. That's a terrible question.

 

I think it's a wonderful question! Who made God? Who made God's creator? Who made God's creator's creator? And so on and so forth into an infinite regress! In short, where's god's family tree? Did he evolve out of prexisting materials in the universe or did he just have an unlimiteed amount of parents? Maybe he was abandoned in this universe because his Mommy and Daddy knew, in advance, what a big asshole he'd be! lol... So then, he thought he was the only one....

[AtheistMommy]

 

Gravity exists in space also. If it didn't moons would not orbit planets and planets wouldn't orbit large stars like the sun.

 

What the fuck is this persons point.

 

 

He's not very good at inserting quotes. That's my comment to him.

[willybilly30]

i wish you would find someone else to annoy.

i have seen this question asked many times by athiests so its a famous question go talk to them about it.

 

 

 

 

ask him the famous athiest question:

if god made everything who made god?

 

That's not a famous atheist question. That's a terrible question.

 

 

 

ask him the famous athiest question:

if god made everything who made god?

 

That's not a famous atheist question. That's a terrible question.

 

I think it's a wonderful question! Who made God? Who made God's creator? Who made God's creator's creator? And so on and so forth into an infinite regress! In short, where's god's family tree? Did he evolve out of prexisting materials in the universe or did he just have an unlimiteed amount of parents? Maybe he was abandoned in this universe because his Mommy and Daddy knew, in advance, what a big asshole he'd be! lol... So then, he thought he was the only one....

 

WOW ASSIMOV LOOK AN ATHIEST THOUGHT MY QUESTION WAS A GOOD ONE IMAGINE THAT.

YOU THINK EVERYTHING STUPID I BET YOU THINK YOURSELF IS STUPID I PICTURE YOU LIKE GROUCHY SMURF I HATE EVERYTHING. fuck you