Yes Folks, I Am Defensive.

[Guest Zoe Grace]

I can be having an equal argument/discussion with someone and they can almost always "win" by playing the "defensive card" when you call someone else defensive what does that even mean?

 

I mean just by arguing, aren't both parties somehow "defending" their position. Of course you're defensive. Otherwise you would be apathetic and not arguing. But both parties are "defensive"

 

It irritates the hell out of me when an argument is going on a point by point issue, and then out of nowhere someone goes "I don't understand why you're being so defensive." WTF???

 

Generally I respond with an equal amount of ire and insanity to the person who started the argument. So why am "I" the defensive one? Is it like riding "shotgun" someone has to "call it?"

 

Isn't labeling someone "defensive" a catchall way, to cause everyone to see everything you've said in this whole new "defensive" light. Yes, I'm really that paranoid. But when called defensive suddenly I think "great, that's just GREAT now EVERYTHING I've said up to this point is gonna be considered invalid by other people because i was defensive."

 

it's like an argument ceasefire where you automatically gain the upper hand. because if the person wasn't defensive before, they ARE defensive now, about not being defensive.

 

It's not an argument, it's not a point...but hey...if all else fails, we can call her defensive.

 

So am I defensive? Well, honestly I think I am. Because I get very passionate and committed and involved in pretty much anything I argue with someone about. But why is this automatically labeled a bad thing?

 

Why is this a showstopper?

 

Oh. She's defensive. Well, she DID have a point, then she went and got invested in it, now she's all defensive.

 

Is defensive some meaningless label we use in an argument to seem more "rational", "logical", "collected." Does it have any real meaning at all. If so, what?

 

What is the difference in Passionate and Defensive?

 

Does something only become "defensive" when you use personal examples?

 

I'm REALLY not posting this to be a bitch, not this time hehe. This is really me sitting here going "now wait a minute...does this really mean anything?"

 

For future reference I'd rather be called "emotional" or even "overwrought." Because that can be clearly defined...hell, even "psycho bitch" yes, I am emotional, overwrought and at times a psycho bitch, but I don't understand "defensive" because isn't that the same thing as everybody else in an argument where sarcasm and pithy remarks are flying?

 

What makes "me" so special that I got labeled the defensive one?

 

I know I know...I'm a drama queen but I really do want to know.

 

Does it have anything to do with perceptions of females? I know lots of guys on this board who I think are about the same level of hardcore insane as I am (I won't name names, you boys know who you are ) but they're never labeled defensive.

 

What makes me stand apart from that?

 

I know,even as I type this that this has got to be my number one most narcissistic post ever...but let's deal with my narcissism later. What about defensive? I promise I will be collected and not get defensive about it. (this is a complete lie btw)

[godlessgrrl]

I'm honestly as puzzled by the use of the "you're defensive" tactic as you are, in terms of whether or not it actually means anything.

 

Oddly enough I've only ever had the accusation thrown at me by people who are controlling and insecure. Consequently I tend to think that it doesn't really mean that you're being defensive, it really means that they're projecting. Or else that they're getting frustrated and can't think of a better argument, so it's time to bring out the ad hominem attacks. Because sadly, for a lot of people, once you deflect attention away from the actual argument and towards the people who are arguing, then the point is lost and it's about the character of the people.

 

It isn't good debate, but it happens.

 

I suppose the best response to an accusation of "you're being defensive" is a hearty "So what?" Because really, so what if you are?

 

It's kind of like hearing the "you're too sensitive!" accusation. Yeah, okay, so what if I am? Big fucking deal. The only thing anybody's really saying when they say you're defensive or too sensitive or what the fuck ever is that you're too much of whatever it is for them to deal with. It isn't really an argument at all, it's a tactic to derail an argument they can't deal with.

 

That's what I think, anyway.

 

Ooh, and I just went back and noted the question about perception of women. I think sometimes it does have to do with that, but it depends on the context. I think that a lot of ppl have this expectation that either women are going to be totally compliant and nice and submissive all the time and so if you get riled up about something that's Bad™ and they have to put you back in line with a character accusation. I also think it's possible that a lot of people have an equally problematic assumption that women are going to be irrational and emotional and that you can't actually argue with women about anything real because their troublesome feelings are going to get in the way - and if you get riled up, it somehow "proves" it to them.

 

I had an SO who was prone to the latter assumption. It was extremely frustrating to talk to him about anything, because as soon as I showed any feelings at all, he played the "you're irrational" trump card - and the discussion was over. Which, of course, got me even more emotional when I got homicidally pissed off at him for being an utter dick... which of course just "proved" his assertion that I was irrational and couldn't be talked to like an adult human being.

 

Truth is that there's nothing wrong with being emotional, it isn't just the realm of women anyway, and it's not like you can't still have a good point even if your emotions are involved in the discussion.

 

So for the most part, if in the middle of an argument someone tells me I'm being too defensive, I usually take it as read that they just don't have anything meaningful left to say and are trying to save face. Then I call them on it, and and they lose face anyway.

 

Ok. That's that.

[Merlinfmct87]

Or you are a judgemental prick. I've had that one used on me several times. Nice way to dodge what I'm saying and attack the person speaking.

 

Gwen said it best. Once that card is played, it is obvious to everyone with a clue that the person using it has lost. It's little better than 'you're going to hell.'

 

Merlin

[godlessgrrl]

Something else I've noticed is that sometimes people will pull a character assassination like that if you get too close to the truth of what they're saying, and it's something they'd rather hide.

 

I mean what if you pointed out that you see a certain sexist double standard in how you're labeled vs. how the guys are labeled for the same or similar behavior - and somebody pulls the "you're just being defensive" card on you? That'd say to me that you struck a nerve and got too close to the uncomfortable truth that hey - maybe there really is a sexist double standard going on.

 

I think overall things like that are still just an excuse not to argue, or an attempt to somehow diminish the point you've made by diminishing you. In some odd way it's a backhanded compliment too, because I bet it's made when people feel threatened - wow, you must be powerful to make 'em feel that way, huh!

 

Of course you're not really, but the dynamics of social interaction don't always mesh well with reality.

 

I don't know what to say about the narcissism thing. I'm fairly self-centered myself, not so much from lack of interest about other people, but from being very introverted and just not getting much practice in showing interest in others. Plus hell, I'm not in anybody else's head, really. If you expected the world to really revolve around you, that'd be genuine narcissism in my book. I've known people who are really like that - heh, I was raised by one, in fact - and you don't throw off those kinds of vibes to me. Fwiw.

 

Anyway. Rambling now, thanks for reading.

[Amethyst]

I also don't like that tactic. It's like saying "well, you should really just give up and let people walk all over you, or at least be wishy-washy and agree with everything everyone says and have no mind of your own."

 

And I do think it has something to do with female stereotypes, that women are expected to be agreeable and never have opinions, or at least never voice them.

 

Also, there is a huge difference from being introverted and being completely wrapped up in yourself and never giving a crap about anyone else. Zoe, I think you do care about other people. You are far from being narcissistic (IMHO).

[chefranden]

I can be having an equal argument/discussion with someone and they can almost always "win" by playing the "defensive card" when you call someone else defensive what does that even mean?

 

Zoe,

 

Try studying up on the Art of Verbal Self Defence. It's fun.

 

chef

[Merlinfmct87]

Oh actually i have two really big hot buttons:

 

"You're defensive"

 

and the perception either real or imaginary (i.e. whether they say it or not) that I'm somehow being "illogical"

 

The illogical thing is a big problem on this board, since most of the people on this board aren't just exchristian they are ex anything that requires any kind of leap of faith whatsoever and can't be repeated thirty times in a lab.

 

So in some ways I'm very sensitive about being labeled illogical because I feel it affects how people view my level of intelligence but being logical 24/7 is a shitty emotionless way to live.

 

IF this is the only life I get, why the hell would I want it to be so cold and unfeeling? Just calculated and reasonable and logical and mathematical. To me that's just depressing.

 

I'm starting to throw caution to the wind and say: "You know what? I believe there might be an afterlife. I believe some NDEs might be legitimate experiences. I believe that reincarnation might be real. I believe everything is interconnected and there could be some higher reality and how the hell do we know that THIS is the "real" reality and not just some other dream layer." oops, there I went. Now I'm illogical, and I almost feel free.

 

Illogic isn't a death knell. Irrational things happen all the time. The real problem is when illogical beliefs lead to actions that harm and destroy. Deism or the hope of an afterlife do neither, by themselves.

 

Or you are a judgemental prick. I've had that one used on me several times. Nice way to dodge what I'm saying and attack the person speaking.

 

Gwen said it best. Once that card is played, it is obvious to everyone with a clue that the person using it has lost. It's little better than 'you're going to hell.'

 

Merlin

 

 

 

But is it REALLY?

 

"You're going to hell" doesn't really hold any weight with the members here. We all just roll our eyes.

 

Okay. Let me put this in a very simple, blunt, clear-cut way.

 

Fact: Saying that 'you'll go to hell for that!' is a Christian's way of controlling the argument when he has no other option. When in doubt, damn. Appeal to fear, not reason.

 

Fact: Saying that 'well, you're just defensive' or 'you're full of yourself' is a more ecumenical way of attacking the person. An apostate can't use hell, so they just insult the character when they don't have the smarts to actually attack the problem.

 

Apostates and the like roll their eyes at point one. The fact that point two still holds sway is rather telling to me. But then again, I've started innumerable threads about people taking a little more time to think things through, so this is an old issue with me.

 

Merlin

[Lycorth]

Zoe, I used to get that from my ex all the time. Whenever we'd have arguments about things (ie, she came home from gabbing with the jaded bitches she worked with and decided to ride my ass and criticize me all night long) she always fell back on the "why are you being so defensive?" line. It was like an emergency escape hatch when I disproved one of her little rants.

 

A lot of people whip out that line simply because they realize they are losing an argument and want to try and make a last-ditch attempt to steer shit in their direction. They can't bear the fact that they really don't have a leg to stand on.

[Merlinfmct87]

 

 

Illogic isn't a death knell. Irrational things happen all the time. The real problem is when illogical beliefs lead to actions that harm and destroy. Deism or the hope of an afterlife do neither, by themselves.

 

thanks. yeah, it's not the end of the world. So i have some beliefs. So, every idea i have hasn't been tested 30 different times by a team of expert scientists.

 

Exactly. Case in point: How many babies have you slaughtered for the FSM?

 

 

Apostates and the like roll their eyes at point one. The fact that point two still holds sway is rather telling to me. But then again, I've started innumerable threads about people taking a little more time to think things through, so this is an old issue with me.

 

Merlin

 

True.

 

Zoe, I used to get that from my ex all the time. Whenever we'd have arguments about things (ie, she came home from gabbing with the jaded bitches she worked with and decided to ride my ass and criticize me all night long) she always fell back on the "why are you being so defensive?" line. It was like an emergency escape hatch when I disproved one of her little rants.

 

A lot of people whip out that line simply because they realize they are losing an argument and want to try and make a last-ditch attempt to steer shit in their direction. They can't bear the fact that they really don't have a leg to stand on.

 

 

This seems to be the predominant opinion. And I need to just chill the fuck out about it.

I disagree. I think you need to stick up for yourself more... say that that kind of abuse won't be tolerated.

 

Call them on it.

 

Merlin

[Thackerie]

Aww, just pull the "you're in denial" card on them -- as in when you say you're the one being defensive and they reply, no you are, just say, "you're in denial," which, of course, they will deny. And then you can say, "See? That proves it." Never fails to irritate.

[Ms. K]

Aww, just pull the "you're in denial" card on them -- as in when you say you're the one being defensive and they reply, no you are, just say, "you're in denial," which, of course, they will deny. And then you can say, "See? That proves it." Never fails to irritate.

 

 

Don't mind me as I sit here giggling over that one, my MIL used to try to say I was "too sensitive," I was "taking that ALL wrong, that's NOT what she meant," and "you're being so defensive, WHY are you being defensive?" on me all. the. time.

 

First of all, all those "arguments" are designed to throw you off the course of the argument you are making. If someone can get to you by saying you're too sensitive, you are taking what they are saying wrong, and you're just being defensive, they have accomplished three things:

 

1) Because you are "too sensitive" they will win the argument because anything you say to refute their claims is merely being made because you're such a baby.

 

2) Because you have "taken it all wrong," you are flat-out stupid, and there's no hope for you if you can't understand simple conversation.

 

3) Because you are "being defensive," you're not logical and rational enough to have the argument.

 

All three can be torn down with "You're in denial." And very quickly, too.

 

Nothing stops a conversation with my MIL when she accuses (and I don't know if she still does it, I haven't spoken to her since last September, and have no intention of ever speaking to her again) me of being "too sensitive" and "taking things the wrong way" and "being defensive" faster than me saying, "You're just in denial. You said, and I quote, X, Y, and Z to me, and I responded to you the way a rational person would. You are simply in denial that I am right, and you are being nasty."

 

When she would sputter about it, and try to refute me, I'd simply say, "See? That just proves you're in denial about your true intentions. Why don't you just admit that you meant to say what you did the way you did in order to be nasty and hurtful to me?"

 

She would stomp off with a cat-butt face at that point.

 

Of course, "you're being defensive" doesn't work on someone like me who will turn right around and say something completely smart-assed like, "Well, isn't THAT the pot calling the kettle black? Should I quote back to you exactly how defensive you're being?" Or, "That's the best you can come up with to refute my point, making a non-existent claim that I'm being 'defensive'? What's the matter, can't handle the argument anymore? Maybe you should try gracefully conceding defeat."

 

Or, my favorite, "Is that your point, that I'm being defensive? Doesn't look like you have much of a point, now, does it?"

 

Usually the last one leaves people sputtering in absolute RAGE that they didn't score points off you. Especially when you can coldly and logically defend every word you said, and point out that people who call others "defensive" in an argument are people who can't think their way out of a paper bag, and have been losing the argument all along.

 

Doesn't always make friends and influence people, but then, I'd rather be right than popular because I go along with what everyone else thinks.

[Lycorth]

 

I disagree. I think you need to stick up for yourself more... say that that kind of abuse won't be tolerated.

 

Call them on it.

 

Merlin

 

Indeed - the moment you let people walk on you, it's game over.

[StrawberrySundae]

Can I add to this rant? Along with the defensive line, I hate it when you are posting in a thread about personal opinions, and someone who doesn't like your opinion misquotes you, or rephrases in such a way to make you look like you said something you didn't. And then they have the gall to respond to THEIR version of your quote rather than YOUR version of your own dang quote!!! Thank you, I feel better now.

[jjacksonRIAB]

I can be having an equal argument/discussion with someone and they can almost always "win" by playing the "defensive card" when you call someone else defensive what does that even mean?

 

I mean just by arguing, aren't both parties somehow "defending" their position. Of course you're defensive. Otherwise you would be apathetic and not arguing. But both parties are "defensive"

 

It irritates the hell out of me when an argument is going on a point by point issue, and then out of nowhere someone goes "I don't understand why you're being so defensive." WTF???

 

Generally I respond with an equal amount of ire and insanity to the person who started the argument. So why am "I" the defensive one? Is it like riding "shotgun" someone has to "call it?"

 

Isn't labeling someone "defensive" a catchall way, to cause everyone to see everything you've said in this whole new "defensive" light. Yes, I'm really that paranoid. But when called defensive suddenly I think "great, that's just GREAT now EVERYTHING I've said up to this point is gonna be considered invalid by other people because i was defensive."

 

it's like an argument ceasefire where you automatically gain the upper hand. because if the person wasn't defensive before, they ARE defensive now, about not being defensive.

 

It's not an argument, it's not a point...but hey...if all else fails, we can call her defensive.

 

So am I defensive? Well, honestly I think I am. Because I get very passionate and committed and involved in pretty much anything I argue with someone about. But why is this automatically labeled a bad thing?

 

Why is this a showstopper?

 

Oh. She's defensive. Well, she DID have a point, then she went and got invested in it, now she's all defensive.

 

Is defensive some meaningless label we use in an argument to seem more "rational", "logical", "collected." Does it have any real meaning at all. If so, what?

 

What is the difference in Passionate and Defensive?

 

Does something only become "defensive" when you use personal examples?

 

I'm REALLY not posting this to be a bitch, not this time hehe. This is really me sitting here going "now wait a minute...does this really mean anything?"

 

For future reference I'd rather be called "emotional" or even "overwrought." Because that can be clearly defined...hell, even "psycho bitch" yes, I am emotional, overwrought and at times a psycho bitch, but I don't understand "defensive" because isn't that the same thing as everybody else in an argument where sarcasm and pithy remarks are flying?

 

What makes "me" so special that I got labeled the defensive one?

 

I know I know...I'm a drama queen but I really do want to know.

 

Does it have anything to do with perceptions of females? I know lots of guys on this board who I think are about the same level of hardcore insane as I am (I won't name names, you boys know who you are ) but they're never labeled defensive.

 

What makes me stand apart from that?

 

I know,even as I type this that this has got to be my number one most narcissistic post ever...but let's deal with my narcissism later. What about defensive? I promise I will be collected and not get defensive about it. (this is a complete lie btw)

 

Thanks, it's good to stop and think about things like this. I guess the question always seemed to be disarming to me, suggesting I am not being open-minded. But it depends. If someone springs an argument on you, and you don't feel the need to argue it, then it's irritating. At times like that my approach is to cut to the quick.

 

The people who irritate me the most are the ones who start an argument, ask my opinion, and after they hear it they something like, "Why do you care?". Why did you ask me? Apparently all you wanted was a venue to blow shit out of your own orifice that I was not interested in hearing in the first place. You sir, are an asshole.

 

If you solicit someone else's opinion, don't tack on the "Why are you so defensive?" bullshit when you find out they hold a strong opinion. It's annoying, it's ad hominem, and it's a sign that you're losing the argument. My disposition has nothing to do with this debate.

[loves_learning]

I'll probably be crucified for this one...but I can't say that I agree with everything I read here.

 

As for the "you're being defensive" line...it can absolutely be used in a way that is only to diffuse the conversation. But, sometimes people are absolutely right when using it.

 

My example, one of the things that most irritates me, is when people are so unwilling to even think that they may have done/said something inappropriate, that they then attack you personally for even bringing it up. That is what I would call being defensive. Taking something personally when it isn't being worded that way is immature and doesn't lead to any sort of meaningful conversation or relationship.

 

For example, if I were to say (in a calm fashion), "I don't appreciate it when you do X. It makes me feel like Y, and I don't like it," I would expect the person on the receiving end to ask me questions about what I had perceived, and think about what I was saying. Instead, some people tend to get so upset that it was even brought up that they start freaking out, arguing incessantly, etc., until you either drop it or concede that they were right and you shouldn't have mentioned it. I find it ridiculously defensive...and ignorant to boot.