A Final Prayer

[Johnny Smith]

I prayed today. I have not prayed in quite some time.

 

I was not petitioning the almighty for anything. I belong to no organization to which I desire a friend to become a member. I am not sick. I have no family members that are sick at this time. I am financially stable. However, I realize that all of these stabilities could become instabilities in the time that it takes to snap a finger. Nevertheless, my prayer was not focused on preventing pain. In fact, I cannot even say with one hundred percent confidence that God exists. I cannot say with any confidence that a divine force heard my prayer.

 

But I heard my prayer, and this is a summary of that prayer (minus King James English):

 

“Lord,

 

As one who embraced Christianity, I became to believe that sins are behaviors and thoughts of human beings that are a product of our fallen human nature.

 

As a born again Christian, I believed that man inherited a sinful nature that condemned them to a hereafter of hellfire and separation from God. This seems twisted to me, Lord.

 

According to a majority of the world’s Christians, mankind is guilty by association. We are associated with the first man, Adam, who rebelled against you. But Lord, did I ask to be born? No. My birth was a product of the passions of two individuals. If there is even the slightest chance that an innocent child, born into this not-so-innocent world, will toil through this difficult life only to be welcomed by the hosts of hell in eternity, than would it not have been better for that innocent child to have never been born? Perhaps abortion is not so bad after all, Lord.

 

Here I am, Johnny Smith. In my life, I have loved those that would not love me back. Some have loved me that I have not loved. I have laughed with those who bring me joy. I have cried over broken families and broken relationships. I have been a friend to some that others would not befriend. I have not befriended others that I should have because of my immaturity and ego. I have believed in you, God. I have cried as a result of what I believed to be your spirit. I have spent hours thinking about you, talking about you, and praying that others would come to know you.

 

Now I am on the verge of disbelief. Lord, you don’t seem fair to me. Condemning man based on the actions of his forefather (Adam) seems tyrannical. Allowing your spirit children to enter this mortal estate with a complete foreknowledge that some might not “make it” seems abusive. What kind and gracious Father would know that his son or daughter was going to be killed in a fatal car accident on a particular day, and yet still allow his son or daughter to be in a vehicle on that day?

 

Lord, I know that some religious people say that we cannot know the mind of God. We can’t understand his ways. The reasons are not important. The belief is only important. But God, I can’t live like that anymore. My ability to live a fulfilling life is being impeded by what seems to me to be an unhealthy belief for the mind and soul of a man.

 

I am weary of not loving because I do not feel loved by you. My body and emotions suffer because I do not properly care for them. I often look at myself and hate myself because of the sinful nature that I still believe, at times, to be a part of myself.

 

And so, Lord, I am weary of believing in you. I am weary of believing that I may end up eternally separated from you because of the thoughts I have on even this subject. If you are out there, God, than you must be good and fair and loving and just. If you are just and loving and fair and good, than you are not the Christian God I once worshipped with tears and longsuffering.

 

Amen.”

 

Johnny Smith

[Ouroboros]

Hi Johnny, Welcome!

 

You're prayer was much longer than mine, but essentially my deconversion ended with a similar one. I lost my belief, and asked for renewed faith, but didn't get any. So here I am, in this god forsaken site! But I love it. Just love to be here.

 

How recent did you pray this?

 

One of my feelings at the end, was that I loved and cared for my family more than God did. Because things happened to my kids and wife, even though the Bible say we shouldn't worry about tomorrow, because God will care for us. I didn't see that happening, but rather the opposite. My life and my family's life didn't turn to the better until I was gone from the bondage of religion and superstition.

[garrisonjj]

I prayed today. I have not prayed in quite some time.

 

I was not petitioning the almighty for anything. I belong to no organization to which I desire a friend to become a member. I am not sick. I have no family members that are sick at this time. I am financially stable. However, I realize that all of these stabilities could become instabilities in the time that it takes to snap a finger. Nevertheless, my prayer was not focused on preventing pain. In fact, I cannot even say with one hundred percent confidence that God exists. I cannot say with any confidence that a divine force heard my prayer.

 

But I heard my prayer, and this is a summary of that prayer (minus King James English):

 

“Lord,

 

As one who embraced Christianity, I became to believe that sins are behaviors and thoughts of human beings that are a product of our fallen human nature.

 

As a born again Christian, I believed that man inherited a sinful nature that condemned them to a hereafter of hellfire and separation from God. This seems twisted to me, Lord.

 

According to a majority of the world’s Christians, mankind is guilty by association. We are associated with the first man, Adam, who rebelled against you. But Lord, did I ask to be born? No. My birth was a product of the passions of two individuals. If there is even the slightest chance that an innocent child, born into this not-so-innocent world, will toil through this difficult life only to be welcomed by the hosts of hell in eternity, than would it not have been better for that innocent child to have never been born? Perhaps abortion is not so bad after all, Lord.

 

Here I am, Johnny Smith. In my life, I have loved those that would not love me back. Some have loved me that I have not loved. I have laughed with those who bring me joy. I have cried over broken families and broken relationships. I have been a friend to some that others would not befriend. I have not befriended others that I should have because of my immaturity and ego. I have believed in you, God. I have cried as a result of what I believed to be your spirit. I have spent hours thinking about you, talking about you, and praying that others would come to know you.

 

Now I am on the verge of disbelief. Lord, you don’t seem fair to me. Condemning man based on the actions of his forefather (Adam) seems tyrannical. Allowing your spirit children to enter this mortal estate with a complete foreknowledge that some might not “make it” seems abusive. What kind and gracious Father would know that his son or daughter was going to be killed in a fatal car accident on a particular day, and yet still allow his son or daughter to be in a vehicle on that day?

 

Lord, I know that some religious people say that we cannot know the mind of God. We can’t understand his ways. The reasons are not important. The belief is only important. But God, I can’t live like that anymore. My ability to live a fulfilling life is being impeded by what seems to me to be an unhealthy belief for the mind and soul of a man.

 

I am weary of not loving because I do not feel loved by you. My body and emotions suffer because I do not properly care for them. I often look at myself and hate myself because of the sinful nature that I still believe, at times, to be a part of myself.

 

And so, Lord, I am weary of believing in you. I am weary of believing that I may end up eternally separated from you because of the thoughts I have on even this subject. If you are out there, God, than you must be good and fair and loving and just. If you are just and loving and fair and good, than you are not the Christian God I once worshipped with tears and longsuffering.

 

Amen.”

 

Johnny Smith

 

 

I agree with this prayer totally as this is exactly my conception of religion and god. As far as abortion,however, I do believe this act is MURDER under all circumstances except to save the life of the mother.Gary

[Lunar Shadow]

yup welcome to the club of unanswered prayers I prayed a similar prayer (mine was also not as long) but as you can see nothing happened here I sit An Atheist.

 

Here is my Question The bible says Seek and Ye shall find knock and the door shall be open unto you.

 

well I honestly sought god and sought longer than I problably should have but if I sought and didn't find then either god is a liar or he isn't there. Can anyone reconcile this?

 

 

didn't think so

[Johnny Smith]

I prayed this prayer very recently.

 

What I captured in writing is the essence of the prayer. Not word for word.

 

It was a very intense and passionate time. It felt liberating to pray these words in the way I had always prayed, and realize that perhaps Jesus really did not hear me. I have not given up my belief, which I believe is reasonable, that there is a divine intelligence which permeates the universe. Nevertheless, it is not the anthropomorphic God-man which I have worshipped for many years. I would not even call this intelligence God. I do not know that I have a label for this belief in divine intelligence, and maybe that is just fine.

 

Johnny Smith

[Johnny Smith]

HanSolo mentioned the bondage of religion and superstition. I have often thought of my deep affiliation with Christianity as bondage.

 

I have lived much of my life consumed by whether God approves of my thoughts and deeds. To be free of those feelings, even if just for a few days, has been extremely fulfilling. I say “even if just for a few days,” because I have been down this road before. I have felt these unconstrained feelings of liberty before, and yet, in my life I have often reverted to the bondage from “whence I came.”

 

What bondage?

 

The bondage of believing that there is a God that is actively involved in every aspect of my life. This belief makes a harsh word from a friend, a bad day at work, and even a traffic jam out to be the work of the adversary. Worse, it makes these circumstances of life out to be a test from God. Fanciful answers to real life challenges produce false results.

 

Let’s take the very real emotion of joy from the cult perspective. If there is no joy, there is no peace. “Where can I turn for peace?” The religious person asks. The like-minded, religious person answers: “Turn to God through prayer in the name of Jesus Christ.”

 

The genuine seeker of spiritual fulfillment heeds this advice, and seeks God for answers to his/her lack of joy and/or peace. When this joy is short-lived, the religious person thinks there must be a spiritual reason. The religious person asks the following questions of him or herself:

 

1) Have I prayed enough?

2) Does God really love me?

3) I wonder if this is one of those tests from God to prove my faithfulness to Him?

4) Have I sinned?

5) I have repented. Has God accepted my repentance?

6) I wonder if this is something I should go to my Pastor about?

 

The list of questions can continue until “the cows come home.”

 

The answers to these questions are based on fantasy. The emotional reaction to these fantasy-based answers is much like the emotional reaction to a captivating movie or fiction book. The movie we have been watching and the book we have been reading became a pseudo-reality; a fantasy world that planted seeds of fear in many of us, sprouting the fruit of anxiety, depression, and self-hatred.

 

Johnny Smith

[Lycorth]

Welcome, Johnny!

 

That prayer sums up most of the big problems I had with Xianity in the beginning, and the things that keep me away from the cult. Man being guilty for something an ancient ancestor did, the concept of Hell, the glorification of suffering for the sake of Gawd and the silence each and every single soul on earth who prays to the Xian god is greeted with - you summed it all up nicely.

 

More Xians should read prayers like this. They should be made to see just how impotent their so-called "god" really is.

[Ouroboros]

I do not know that I have a label for this belief in divine intelligence, and maybe that is just fine.

It is just fine. We can't know about the things we can't know about, and religion falsely claims knowledge about it.

 

The bondage of believing that there is a God that is actively involved in every aspect of my life. This belief makes a harsh word from a friend, a bad day at work, and even a traffic jam out to be the work of the adversary. Worse, it makes these circumstances of life out to be a test from God. Fanciful answers to real life challenges produce false results.

Oh, I recognize this all too well. I could sit and cast demons out of my computer when I had some difficult bugs in my software I couldn't figure out. When things didn't work my way at all, I'd go furious and speak wildly in tongues to get the situation to change... and it never did.

 

Man, the relaxed and calm person I am today, compared to back then. I felt I was going for the big heart-attack in my old life, but now, I'm taking it easy.

 

 

1) Have I prayed enough?

2) Does God really love me?

3) I wonder if this is one of those tests from God to prove my faithfulness to Him?

4) Have I sinned?

5) I have repented. Has God accepted my repentance?

6) I wonder if this is something I should go to my Pastor about?

I recognize this too. I used to walk in doubt about my own salvation, that I got it all right. And I tried my best to find out what I might have missed.

 

Good to have you here Johnny, and I hope you'll find yourself again. Because that's what it's all about.

[Johnny Smith]

You and I must have attended the same church! Wild tongues was common place in one of the movemens of which I was a part. The Bible College I attended prided itself in teaching people how to live "in the spirit." Of course, that meant praying in loud, diverse, tongues. The more diverse, the more perfected your gift was! Praying was such a chore. It was a necessary chore, so I believed. There was no peace in it. I got tired of yelling, crying, sweating, and pacing.

 

Indeed, after this Bible College experience I became involved in a more conservative (in the way of "spiritual gifts") AG church. It was there that I learned to pray without some of the hoopla previously associated. Ironically, it was also there where I began to open my mind to other school's of Christian thought, including reading some Catholic authors on deeper spiritual life. My Pastor recommended some of these books. Most of them were heavy on the concept of "grace." As a result, I realized that grace felt pretty darn good. It felt so good that I eventually realized that the so called god does not grant grace. I must grant grace (i.e., peace) to myself through attempting to live a normal life.

 

I'm still working that out.

[Ouroboros]

Yes, tongues were commonly used.

 

What bothered me most, since everyone were supposed to "walk in faith" (i.e. speak according to the word, and not according to reality), was that people actually were lying about their real problems. If I was sick and felt bad, I couldn't tell anyone that. If someone asked me "how are you doing today?" I had to lie, and say "I feel fine in the name of Jesus." Eventhough I felt like crap. I couldn't really conform to that. I couldn't think that God wanted us to be blind to reality and the world he put us in. So eventually we left that Church and moved to the other side of the world! (From Sweden to California)

 

The worst tongue-warring-preachers were Sam and Jane Whaley... urgh... they were shouting, screaming high pitched, and called it in the spirit. Damn, they behaved worse than a drunk swede!

[Johnny Smith]

Were you a part of Ulf Ekman's Word of Life church in Sweden by any chance?

 

Yes, I am familiar with the Whaleys. I was involved with Roberts Liardon and his Spirit Life Bible College. Liardon began his preaching career at the age of twelve. He became well known throughout Charismania when he published a book called "I Saw Heaven." He claimed to have been transported to Heaven as an eight year old and given a grand vision.

 

My opinion is that he was a part of a very spiritually abusive upbringing that fed the fantasies of a child. Children imagine things. If these imaginations are validated by ignorant adults, it is no wonder that his ministry was built upon this fanciful lie.

 

As far as the piercing, shouting, screaming, high pitched tongues is concerned. I am very familiar. We used to participate in these type of prayers daily at the Bible "college" I attended. We used to chant Christian jargon over and over again. One particular mantra that was adopted during my class was "steadfast, immovable, unwavering!" I remember one session, these three words were uttered repeatedly for nearly an hour!

 

In other news - I spoke with my father today on the telephone. If you recall from another post, my father is a born again Christian that is currently mixing some of his former New Age beliefs with his twenty-five years of Christian indoctrination. He informed me that he had attended a "Unity" church today, and asked that I give him "grace" as he is in this time of searching. I informed him that I do not need to give him any grace. I let him know for the first time in my life that I question the existance of god. I told him that I believe that everything we had been a part of as a family was based on nothing more than fantasy.

 

It was a good first step.

 

JS

[Ouroboros]

Were you a part of Ulf Ekman's Word of Life church in Sweden by any chance?

Yup. I think you're one of the first here that actually know about it that Church.

 

Several of the teachers there (back then) were friends to my family.

 

One of my brothers went there the first year, when the Bible School started (84 IIRC).

 

I went to Bible School 86, and left for US California 96. During that time I had worked as Sunday school teacher, high school teacher, software developer, participating in the sunday meeting prayer support group (basically prayer during the meeting 2-3 hours!). I also went to a mission trip there. My wife went to Bible school there too, and she went on a mission trip too. etc... a lot of stuff.

 

I spoke to Ulf once during all that time. But I knew some of his closest associates. We did see some weird stuff, and I'm not talking about miracles, but "sin" from the holy center of power. Some of the leaders did some stuff that I never did, and still haven't done. But that's another story.

 

Yes, I am familiar with the Whaleys. I was involved with Roberts Liardon and his Spirit Life Bible College. Liardon began his preaching career at the age of twelve. He became well known throughout Charismania when he published a book called "I Saw Heaven." He claimed to have been transported to Heaven as an eight year old and given a grand vision.

Ah. Roberts Liardon, he was over several times to Livets Ord. I'm getting the goosebumps to hear from someone that actually know what I came from!

 

My opinion is that he was a part of a very spiritually abusive upbringing that fed the fantasies of a child. Children imagine things. If these imaginations are validated by ignorant adults, it is no wonder that his ministry was built upon this fanciful lie.

Interesting, I didn't know that. It was such a long time ago, that I didn't remember that he was abused as a kid. And your explanation might very well be valid.

 

As far as the piercing, shouting, screaming, high pitched tongues is concerned. I am very familiar. We used to participate in these type of prayers daily at the Bible "college" I attended. We used to chant Christian jargon over and over again. One particular mantra that was adopted during my class was "steadfast, immovable, unwavering!" I remember one session, these three words were uttered repeatedly for nearly an hour!

Yeah. The endless meetings and the endless prayers... dude, did it ever strike you how big these churches were, how devouted, how long time we prayed, and still the amount (or lack of) miracles? We could pray for hours, and we didn't see dead people stand up from the grave. Somehow the largest miracles were a lot of money coming into the Church funds, and the latest year model of Mercedes our pastor drove.

 

In other news - I spoke with my father today on the telephone.

...

I told him that I believe that everything we had been a part of as a family was based on nothing more than fantasy.

Ouch. You're pretty straightforward with your father. That's something I couldn't and still can't do with my family. We'll see how it goes next time I fly back. Maybe this time I have to tell them...

[Johnny Smith]

Greetings.

 

Yes - Ulf Ekman also visited the church/school I was a part of several times. Roberts Liardon spoke about him often. I do not know for a fact that Roberts was abused. My thoughts on the subject are that it was spiritual abuse.

 

Roberts used to tell story about his childhood and how he was raised. His grandmother would lock him in the room with her as she prayed for hours upon hours. He was required to stay in the "prayer closet" with her, and as he puts it, "rode the coat tails" of prayer. He also used to tell stories about sitting around the table for dinner. Grandmother would not allow them to eat their food before it was prayed over. Well, there were times that Grandmother would go into deep "groanings/travailings/intercession" and the food would get cold. Roberts told these stories with pride, stating that this was the "normal way to live." In my opinion, that is spiritual abuse. Likewise, I believe those of us who were a part of his movement were indoctrinated through cult-like mind control that was an extension of what he grew up around. I am not releasing him from responsibility, but simply giving a lay explanation of my observations.

 

I will not go into details, but I was thrown to the ground many times by Roberts and members of his staff in an effort to have devils exorcised from my soul. I have written about these experiences in length in the past, but I find that digging those old wells of bitter water doesn't do much good.

 

I agree with your point about the largest miracles being financial. Money was such a hot topic. Roberts used to stop in the middle of a sermon when he heard a jet fly overhead, and say "thank you Lord for my new jet." When he finally bought his new jet, he invited the entire congregation out to the airfield in celebration of his new toy claimed by faith. I am so glad I never have to listen to another person say, "I sense the Holy Spirit saying that ten people in this room are to give ten thousand dollars each!" The shame.

 

Once, shame on you. Twice, shame on me.

 

... and I'm avoiding the second shame by participating in forums such as these.

 

Regards,

 

JS

 

 

 

By the way, Hans, where does your immediate family stand on spiritual things?

 

Has your wife and children gone through a similar process of de-conversion?

 

JS

[Ouroboros]

I fell many times "in the spirit" too. The last years I was there, I decided that I didn't want to fall based on my mind (mass suggestion) or by someone pushing me, and really, I never fell again. My doubts or my will was stronger than the Holy Spirit.

 

Did it ever occur to you that mustard seed of doubt is stronger than 10,000 people's mountains of hard core faith?

 

I was lucky, my wife secretly lost most of her faith while I did. I didn't know, but when I finally mustered up enough bravery to tell her, she didn't react, she was completely cool with it. She's more of a moderate deist. She don't even think about spiritual things anymore.

 

The kids are agnostic/deists now. They were a bit shocked at first, but everything is great now. It was such a relief to let go of the fantasies. I told the kids they can believe if they want, because no one can really know for sure, but I explained some of the reasons and rationals for my standpoint.

 

My two oldest have been on this site a few times, and even got into debates. They're cool. My oldest even played in a band in Church for a couple of months. He helped them by playing keyboard and guitar, but he never "got saved". So I guess they gave up on him.

 

The best gift I can give them is a free mind to think by themselves, and not indoctrinate them in any particular way. I only state what I think and tell them to find out for themselves, but never let the reason or rational thinking be supressed while they do it.

[futurekid]

Welcome Johnny.

 

You're on the right road. Check out the link in my sig if you want the real down and dirty on Christianity. Best wishes to you!

[Johnny Smith]

Hans -

 

Yes, we used to joke about being slain in the spirit, and would actually call them "courtesy drops."

 

However, the exorcism I encountered was not usually after a "courtesy drop." I was really psychologically involved in the deliverance game. People holding me down and the whole works. It would usually begin after an intense time of "warfare worship..." You know, the kind where the piano is playing in minor keys, the drums are going, the "spiritual songs" in tongues are flying about the room, and those with the "gift of discernment" are roaming about the room looking for the impressionable kid who will fall, shake, growl, and even scream to validate the supposedly "supernatural" encounter. The God in them vs. the Devil in me. Perhaps you were also a part of similar things...

 

It sounds as though you have gone about this all the right way with your family. Giving your kids the option to believe (or not) is admirable. It would be very difficult for me to see one of my children taken in by the deception of superstition the way I was. It sounds as though your kids have good heads on their shoulders, and that your love for them is not based on their spirituality or lack thereof. Kudos.

 

JS

[Ouroboros]

Heh. I managed to avoid the exorcism sessions... And luckily we rarely did anything like that. We did exorcise and cast out demons, but never by physical contact (holding down and such). But I can't voucher for everthing that happened behind the curtains in Livets Ord. And most of the things I have forgotten anyway. Needed the BrainRAM for other things.

 

It's interesting to see my kids use their minds. Hopefully they won't go into any heavy-hard-core-cult-stuff, but one can never know. I just make sure they trust me enough to come to me with questions... I cross my fingers...

 

--edit--

 

If you don't mind me asking, where in US do you live?

[Johnny Smith]

I don't mind you asking at all.

 

I live in Dallas, Texas. I moved here from Southern California (Orange County) about five years ago. It is ironic that it is in the Bible Belt that I have lost faith in the Bible.

 

Glad you are putting your BrainRAM to good use. I'm still trying to remove some faulty memory from mine before I can do a fresh install.

 

JS

[Ouroboros]

How funny!

 

I moved to America (considered more Christian than Sweden, where 70% are agnostic, while USA is 70% Christian), and I lost my faith here. In California. You move away from California, to even more extreme site, and you lose yours.

 

In Sweden I was a fundamentalist, a minority, and here atheist, a minority again. Someone likes to be against the grain...

 

If your road ever leads you back to CA and OC, let me know, we could do a coffee or beer.

[Johnny Smith]

Very interesting.

 

Though my father was and is a die-hard Jesus believer, I was only indoctrinated with his belief system on alternating weekends as a kid.

 

My mother and step-father mostly raised me. They were quite antagonistic toward Christianity. Also, I was raised in New Mexico, which is a very liberal state with the evangelical population making up a small percentage.

 

Your "going against the grain" theory might prove true afterall! hah.

 

I'll take you up on that coffee/beer offer when I'm in the area! What part of OC do you live in?

 

JS

[Ouroboros]

I'll PM you.