The Indignity Of Atheism

[Reverend AtheiStar]

http://floridajewishnews.com/articles/content/view/434/53/

 

"To a true atheist, there can be no more ultimate meaning to good and bad actions than to good or bad weather; no more import to right and wrong than to right and left. To be sure, rationales might be conceived for establishing societal norms, but social contracts are practical tools, not moral imperatives; they are, in the end, artificial. Only an acknowledgement of the Creator can impart true meaning to human life, placing it on a plane above that of mosquitoes."

 

The Indignity of Atheism

 

Written by Rabbi Avi Shafran - Am Echad Resources

Friday, 19 May 2006

 

Back on March 12, a paean to “the dignity of atheism” appeared on The New York Times op-ed page. It was penned by celebrated philosopher Slavoj Zizek who, had he consulted the same periodical’s obituary page a mere three days earlier, would have come face to image with the late Richard Kuklinski.

 

Mr. Kuklinski, who was retired from life at the age of 70, claimed, utterly without remorse, to have killed more than 100 people as a Mafia enforcer; his favored methods included ice picks, crossbows, chain saws and a cyanide solution administered with a nasal-spray bottle.

 

The happy hit man’s example might not have given pause to Professor Zizek, the international director of the Birkbeck Institute for the Humanities. But it should have.

 

Because the notion that there is no higher authority than nature is precisely what enables people like Mr. Kuklinski – and the vast majority of the killers, rapists and thieves who populate the nightly news.

 

No, no, of course that is not to say that most atheists engage in amoral or unethical behavior. What it is to say, though, is that atheism qua atheism presents no compelling objection to such behavior – nor, for that matter, any convincing defense of the very concepts of ethics and morality themselves.

 

The reason is not abstruse. One who sees only random forces behind why we humans find ourselves here is ultimately bound only by his wants. With no imperative beyond the biological, a true atheist, pressed hard enough by circumstances toward unethical or immoral behavior, cannot feel compelled to resist. Why should he?

 

In his view, a purposeless process of evolution has brought us to where we stand, and our feeling that there are good deeds and evil ones is but a utilitarian quirk of natural selection – like our proclivity to eat more than we need when food is available. And so, just as we might choose to forego a second helping of pizza if we harbor an urge to lose weight, so may we choose, for personal gain (of desires, not pounds), to loosen our embrace of a moral, ethical life. Biological advantages, after all, are not moral imperatives.

 

Atheism, in the end, is a belief system in its own right, one in which there can be no claim that a thieving, philandering, serial murdering cannibal is any less commendable a member of the species than a selfless, hard-working philanthropist. In fact, from an evolutionist perspective, the former may well have the advantage.

 

To a true atheist, there can be no more ultimate meaning to good and bad actions than to good or bad weather; no more import to right and wrong than to right and left. To be sure, rationales might be conceived for establishing societal norms, but social contracts are practical tools, not moral imperatives; they are, in the end, artificial. Only an acknowledgement of the Creator can impart true meaning to human life, placing it on a plane above that of mosquitoes.

 

Proponents of atheism bristle when confronted by the implications of their belief, that morality and ethics are mere figments of our evolutionary imagination. But, for all their umbrage, they cannot articulate any way there can really ever be, as one writer has put it, “good without G-d.”

 

The bristlers are not liars, only inconsistent; some well-hidden part of their minds well recognizes that humans have a higher calling than hyenas. But while the cognitive dissonance shifts to overdrive, the stubborn logic remains: The game is zero-sum. Either there is no meaningful mandate for human beings; or there is. And if there is, there must be a Mandator.

 

What inspired Professor Zizek to celebrate atheism as “perhaps our only chance for peace” in the world was the unarguably dismal example set by some people who are motivated by religion. He is certainly correct that much modern mayhem is deeply rooted in claims of religious rectitude. What he forgets, though, is that the world has also seen unimaginable evil – perhaps its greatest share – from men who professed no belief in divinity at all, whose motivations were entirely secular in nature. Adolph Hitler was no believer in G-d. Nor was Joseph Stalin. Nor Pol Pot. Together, though, the trio was responsible for the murders of tens of millions of human beings. They pursued their dreams as atheists with no less relish than Osama Bin Laden pursues his as an Islamist. Evil is evil, whether expressed through faithlessness or misguided faith. But only a belief in a Higher Being has the potential – realized or not – of reining in the darker elements that haunt human souls.

 

Some of my best friends – okay, one or two – are atheists. Stranded on a desert island, I would prefer the company of any of them to Osama’s.

 

But if my choice of island partner were between two strangers about whom I know only that one believes there is no higher reason for human life and the other that there is, I know which one I’d choose.

 

And I think Professor Zizek might make the same choice.

[woodsmoke]

A rabbinical version of original sin. There's something you don't see every day.

 

I'd ask where this self-righteous asshole gets off, but honestly, it just doesn't seem worth the effort.

[Astreja]

Obviously there is something in the concept of atheism that really, really bugs this guy.

 

Perhaps he, too, will come to question his beliefs someday.

 

Or get whacked upside the head by a nice, juicy scandal. He's got 'hubris' written all over him.

[notasheep]

Mr. Kuklinski, who was retired from life at the age of 70, claimed, utterly without remorse, to have killed more than 100 people as a Mafia enforcer; his favored methods included ice picks, crossbows, chain saws and a cyanide solution administered with a nasal-spray bottle.

 

Aren't mafia hitmen catholics?

[woodsmoke]

Mr. Kuklinski, who was retired from life at the age of 70, claimed, utterly without remorse, to have killed more than 100 people as a Mafia enforcer; his favored methods included ice picks, crossbows, chain saws and a cyanide solution administered with a nasal-spray bottle.

 

Aren't mafia hitmen catholics?

 

In that same vein, didn't Hitler have the ringing endorsement of the Vatican throughout most of WWII?

 

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain...

[Sokudo Ningyou]

"Athiests have no morals." Yawn. Heard it before. Unsurprisingly, I seem to have a better understanding of good and evil than the Christians I know. So fuck this guy and his whiny rant.

[Joyous1]

Mr. Kuklinski, who was retired from life at the age of 70, claimed, utterly without remorse, to have killed more than 100 people as a Mafia enforcer; his favored methods included ice picks, crossbows, chain saws and a cyanide solution administered with a nasal-spray bottle.

 

Aren't mafia hitmen catholics?

 

In that same vein, didn't Hitler have the ringing endorsement of the Vatican throughout most of WWII?

 

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain...

 

I think you are right about the Mafia being Catholic, but not Hitler. The Catholic Church opposed Hitler, and many Catholics died in his death camps -- and many Jews survived hidden in Catholic churches.

 

Hitler did get strong support from Tibetan Buddhism though.

 

The good rabbi makes a point of referring to "true" atheists, as if he has some kind of litmus test for determing real atheists from false. That just irritates me, becaue you just KNOW that if you made a reasonble argument against what he is saying he will come back with, "Oh, but you aren't a TRUE atheist then."

[Guest]

Quote:

I think you are right about the Mafia being Catholic, but not Hitler. The Catholic Church opposed Hitler, and many Catholics died in his death camps -- and many Jews survived hidden in Catholic churches.

 

Hitler did get strong support from Tibetan Buddhism though.

 

 

I'm sorry, but that's bullshit. Article 24 of the Nazi manifesto states that "The party stands for positive Christianity", and Hitler used Christian rhetoric in many of his speeches. (The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich; Shirer, William; pg. 235)

 

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." (Mein Kampf; Hitler, Adolph; Vol. 1, Chapter 2; ISBN 0-395-0780-16)

 

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them… In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.” (The Speeches of Adolf Hitler Vol. 1; Baynes, Norman H.; pg. 19-20; ISBN 0-598-7589-33)

 

 

As for your Buddhism accusation, I don't know for sure, but it sounds like more bullshit. What beef would Buddhists have with Jews? They are a peaceful religion that, to my knowledge, have never played any part in a war.

[Vigile]

What a moron. I don't trust people who believe there needs to be a higher power to keep their actions in line. Methinks they are projecting.

[Amethyst]

My guess is this guy has never in his life really gotten to know an atheist, much less someone not of his own beliefs. Sure, he might have talked to someone for a few minutes on a crowded bus or something, but that doesn't equate to getting to know them. He sounds a lot like fundy Christians who hate atheists.

[Dra_Mucd_Uha]

"Atheism, in the end, is a belief system in its own right, one in which there can be no claim that a thieving, philandering, serial murdering cannibal is any less commendable a member of the species than a selfless, hard-working philanthropist. In fact, from an evolutionist perspective, the former may well have the advantage."

 

...and Christians believe in a god that supports slavery, is sexist, and doesn't mind killing whole nations of children.

 

Not only does this guy not have a clue about "true Atheism," but he is obviously threatened by it. But then again, so are all Christians.

[LosingMyReligion]

Mr. Kuklinski, who was retired from life at the age of 70, claimed, utterly without remorse, to have killed more than 100 people as a Mafia enforcer; his favored methods included ice picks, crossbows, chain saws and a cyanide solution administered with a nasal-spray bottle.

 

Aren't mafia hitmen catholics?

 

Most Gangbangers are devoutly Christian as well.

[woodsmoke]

What a moron. I don't trust people who believe there needs to be a higher power to keep their actions in line. Methinks they are projecting.

 

My thoughts exactly.

[Fweethawt]

Somehow, I sense an enormous amount of irony in the fact that a Rabbi wrote this.

 

AND, that he included Hitler in his list of persons who don't believe in a "Higher Power™".

[Reverend AtheiStar]

Mr. Kuklinski, who was retired from life at the age of 70, claimed, utterly without remorse, to have killed more than 100 people as a Mafia enforcer; his favored methods included ice picks, crossbows, chain saws and a cyanide solution administered with a nasal-spray bottle.

 

Aren't mafia hitmen catholics?

 

In that same vein, didn't Hitler have the ringing endorsement of the Vatican throughout most of WWII?

 

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain...

 

I think you are right about the Mafia being Catholic, but not Hitler. The Catholic Church opposed Hitler, and many Catholics died in his death camps -- and many Jews survived hidden in Catholic churches.

 

Hitler did get strong support from Tibetan Buddhism though.

 

The good rabbi makes a point of referring to "true" atheists, as if he has some kind of litmus test for determing real atheists from false. That just irritates me, becaue you just KNOW that if you made a reasonble argument against what he is saying he will come back with, "Oh, but you aren't a TRUE atheist then."

 

 

 

 

http://www.reverendatheistar.com/hitler.htm

 

http://www.reverendatheistar.com/anti_christian_hitler.htm

[Joyous1]

Marty and Rev Atheistar, if you are willing to believe whatever appeals to you without checking the facts you are still acting just like Christians. I for one had my fill of swallowing half truths while I was a Christian, I am no longer interested in doing that so now I seek the facts. If you want to cling to your falsehoods because they make you feel good, go ahead. On the other hand, if you would like to read a factual article on the subject of Hitler's "Christianity" written by an atheist, follow this link:

 

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html

 

Regarding the Church's actions during the Nazi rule of Germany, consider what Albert Einstien -- who was actually there at the time and NOT as a Christian-- had to say:

 

Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks... Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly.

 

Time magazine (23 December 1940) page 38.

 

If you want to learn more about Hitler and the Nazi's interest in Buddhism, you can read this factual article written by a practicing Buddhist that attempts to explain why Tibetan and Japanese Buddhists supported Hitler.

 

http://www.berzinarchives.com/kalachakra/n...hala_tibet.html

 

There was a thriving Buddhist community in Berlin during the war. To my knowledge not one Buddhist was ever killed in a concentration camp, and not one Jew was rescued by a Buddhist. If anyone can prove me wrong on that comment, I would love to see it.

[ped]

Marty and Rev Atheistar, if you are willing to believe whatever appeals to you without checking the facts you are still acting just like Christians. I for one had my fill of swallowing half truths while I was a Christian, I am no longer interested in doing that so now I seek the facts. If you want to cling to your falsehoods because they make you feel good, go ahead. On the other hand, if you would like to read a factual article on the subject of Hitler's "Christianity" written by an atheist, follow this link:

 

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html

 

Regarding the Church's actions during the Nazi rule of Germany, consider what Albert Einstien -- who was actually there at the time and NOT as a Christian-- had to say:

 

Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks... Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly.

 

Time magazine (23 December 1940) page 38.

 

If you want to learn more about Hitler and the Nazi's interest in Buddhism, you can read this factual article written by a practicing Buddhist that attempts to explain why Tibetan and Japanese Buddhists supported Hitler.

 

http://www.berzinarchives.com/kalachakra/n...hala_tibet.html

 

There was a thriving Buddhist community in Berlin during the war. To my knowledge not one Buddhist was ever killed in a concentration camp, and not one Jew was rescued by a Buddhist. If anyone can prove me wrong on that comment, I would love to see it.

 

 

 

 

you believe that but those pics do nothing for you.

[Guest]

Marty and Rev Atheistar, if you are willing to believe whatever appeals to you without checking the facts you are still acting just like Christians.

 

I haven't checked facts? What were those quotes from then? Did you not see the references I posted? Were those pics the Rev posted of priests saluting just done in photoshop? Do you have any photos of Buddhists saluting Hitler? Where are YOUR facts supporting a Buddhist allience with the Nazi's? The link you supplied did not mention a Buddhist conspiracy, could you please point me to those references?

 

The Catholic church had something called the Index of Prohibited books. It was started in 1559 by Pope Paul IV and discontinued in 1966, that's right, 1966. Authors that were banned included Aristotle, Nicholas Copernicus, Galileo Galilei, Johannes Kepler, Thomas Paine, Rene Descartes, Edward Gibbon, Charles Dickens, and Charles Darwin, to name just a few. Nothing Hitler ever wrote was placed on the index even tho it was still in effect during the time of the Third Reich. This dosen't mean the church supported Hitler, but they NEVER opposed him either. Hitler was baptised a Catholic (tho he rarely went to mass) yet the church never excommunicated him The church has been known for excommunicating people for translating the bible into the vernacular. If they'd do that, why not excommunicate HITLER? Is bible translation worse than genocide?

 

I'm well aware of the reasons why xtians want Hitler to be remembered as an Athiest, but that dosen't change the words he himself spoke and wrote. I'm well aware of why the church would want to appear as if they were against Hitler from the begining, but the facts do not support that either. But I'm not claming that Hitler behaved in a manner that was "christ-like" or that he actually believed in xtianity, nor am I claiming a secert conspiracy between the Catholic church and the Nazi's. All I'm saying is that Hitler used xtian language in order to gain the trust of the people. I'm sure he reconized the raw power of blind belief, and used the xtians unending supply of it to his advantage.

 

Would his speeches have had the same effect if xtainity was not based on blind faith? I don't know. But you can't deny that the church made no effort to stop Hitler or distance themselves from the Nazi regime untill AFTER it was fully revealed the extent of the holocaust. You also cannot deny that anti-Semitism got its start in early xtianity, was preached in Germany by Martin Luther, and later Hitler. Xtianity plays a central role in anti-Semetism throughout history wether or not they are still actively promoting it.

 

Marty and Rev Atheistar, if you are willing to believe whatever appeals to you without checking the facts you are still acting just like Christians.

 

I haven't checked facts? What were those quotes from then? Did you not see the references I posted? Were those pics the Rev posted of priests saluting just done in photoshop? Do you have any photos of Buddhists saluting Hitler? Where are YOUR facts supporting a Buddhist allience with the Nazi's? The link you supplied did not mention a Buddhist conspiracy, could you please point me to those references?

 

The Catholic church had something called the Index of Prohibited books. It was started in 1559 by Pope Paul IV and discontinued in 1966, that's right, 1966. Authors that were banned included Aristotle, Nicholas Copernicus, Galileo Galilei, Johannes Kepler, Thomas Paine, Rene Descartes, Edward Gibbon, Charles Dickens, and Charles Darwin, to name just a few. Nothing Hitler ever wrote was placed on the index even tho it was still in effect during the time of the Third Reich. This dosen't mean the church supported Hitler, but they NEVER opposed him either. Hitler was baptised a Catholic (tho he rarely went to mass) yet the church never excommunicated him The church has been known for excommunicating people for translating the bible into the vernacular. If they'd do that, why not excommunicate HITLER? Is bible translation worse than genocide?

 

I'm well aware of the reasons why xtians want Hitler to be remembered as an Athiest, but that dosen't change the words he himself spoke and wrote. I'm well aware of why the church would want to appear as if they were against Hitler from the begining, but the facts do not support that either. But I'm not claming that Hitler behaved in a manner that was "christ-like" or that he actually believed in xtianity, nor am I claiming a secert conspiracy between the Catholic church and the Nazi's. All I'm saying is that Hitler used xtian language in order to gain the trust of the people. I'm sure he reconized the raw power of blind belief, and used the xtians unending supply of it to his advantage.

 

Would his speeches have had the same effect if xtainity was not based on blind faith? I don't know. But you can't deny that the church made no effort to stop Hitler or distance themselves from the Nazi regime untill AFTER it was fully revealed the extent of the holocaust. You also cannot deny that anti-Semitism got its start in early xtianity, was preached in Germany by Martin Luther, and later Hitler. Xtianity plays a central role in anti-Semetism throughout history wether or not they are still actively promoting it.

 

Soryy I didn't see the second links you gave about the Buddhist connection...will read them now.

 

Marty and Rev Atheistar, if you are willing to believe whatever appeals to you without checking the facts you are still acting just like Christians.

 

I haven't checked facts? What were those quotes from then? Did you not see the references I posted? Were those pics the Rev posted of priests saluting just done in photoshop? Do you have any photos of Buddhists saluting Hitler? Where are YOUR facts supporting a Buddhist allience with the Nazi's? The link you supplied did not mention a Buddhist conspiracy, could you please point me to those references?

 

The Catholic church had something called the Index of Prohibited books. It was started in 1559 by Pope Paul IV and discontinued in 1966, that's right, 1966. Authors that were banned included Aristotle, Nicholas Copernicus, Galileo Galilei, Johannes Kepler, Thomas Paine, Rene Descartes, Edward Gibbon, Charles Dickens, and Charles Darwin, to name just a few. Nothing Hitler ever wrote was placed on the index even tho it was still in effect during the time of the Third Reich. This dosen't mean the church supported Hitler, but they NEVER opposed him either. Hitler was baptised a Catholic (tho he rarely went to mass) yet the church never excommunicated him The church has been known for excommunicating people for translating the bible into the vernacular. If they'd do that, why not excommunicate HITLER? Is bible translation worse than genocide?

 

I'm well aware of the reasons why xtians want Hitler to be remembered as an Athiest, but that dosen't change the words he himself spoke and wrote. I'm well aware of why the church would want to appear as if they were against Hitler from the begining, but the facts do not support that either. But I'm not claming that Hitler behaved in a manner that was "christ-like" or that he actually believed in xtianity, nor am I claiming a secert conspiracy between the Catholic church and the Nazi's. All I'm saying is that Hitler used xtian language in order to gain the trust of the people. I'm sure he reconized the raw power of blind belief, and used the xtians unending supply of it to his advantage.

 

Would his speeches have had the same effect if xtainity was not based on blind faith? I don't know. But you can't deny that the church made no effort to stop Hitler or distance themselves from the Nazi regime untill AFTER it was fully revealed the extent of the holocaust. You also cannot deny that anti-Semitism got its start in early xtianity, was preached in Germany by Martin Luther, and later Hitler. Xtianity plays a central role in anti-Semetism throughout history wether or not they are still actively promoting it.

 

Marty and Rev Atheistar, if you are willing to believe whatever appeals to you without checking the facts you are still acting just like Christians.

 

I haven't checked facts? What were those quotes from then? Did you not see the references I posted? Were those pics the Rev posted of priests saluting just done in photoshop? Do you have any photos of Buddhists saluting Hitler?

 

The Catholic church had something called the Index of Prohibited books. It was started in 1559 by Pope Paul IV and discontinued in 1966, that's right, 1966. Authors that were banned included Aristotle, Nicholas Copernicus, Galileo Galilei, Johannes Kepler, Thomas Paine, Rene Descartes, Edward Gibbon, Charles Dickens, and Charles Darwin, to name just a few. Nothing Hitler ever wrote was placed on the index even tho it was still in effect during the time of the Third Reich. This dosen't mean the church supported Hitler, but they NEVER opposed him either. Hitler was baptised a Catholic (tho he rarely went to mass) yet the church never excommunicated him The church has been known for excommunicating people for translating the bible into the vernacular. If they'd do that, why not excommunicate HITLER? Is bible translation worse than genocide?

 

I'm well aware of the reasons why xtians want Hitler to be remembered as an Athiest, but that dosen't change the words he himself spoke and wrote. I'm well aware of why the church would want to appear as if they were against Hitler from the begining, but the facts do not support that either. But I'm not claming that Hitler behaved in a manner that was "christ-like" or that he actually believed in xtianity, nor am I claiming a secert conspiracy between the Catholic church and the Nazi's. All I'm saying is that Hitler used xtian language in order to gain the trust of the people. I'm sure he reconized the raw power of blind belief, and used the xtians unending supply of it to his advantage.

 

Would his speeches have had the same effect if xtainity was not based on blind faith? I don't know. But you can't deny that the church made no effort to stop Hitler or distance themselves from the Nazi regime untill AFTER it was fully revealed the extent of the holocaust. You also cannot deny that anti-Semitism got its start in early xtianity, was preached in Germany by Martin Luther, and later Hitler. Xtianity plays a central role in anti-Semetism throughout history wether or not they are still actively promoting it.

 

 

 

 

I haven't checked facts? What were those quotes from then? Did you not see the references I posted? Were those pics the Rev posted of priests saluting just done in photoshop? Do you have any photos of Buddhists saluting Hitler?

 

The Catholic church had something called the Index of Prohibited books. It was started in 1559 by Pope Paul IV and discontinued in 1966, that's right, 1966. Authors that were banned included Aristotle, Nicholas Copernicus, Galileo Galilei, Johannes Kepler, Thomas Paine, Rene Descartes, Edward Gibbon, Charles Dickens, and Charles Darwin, to name just a few. Nothing Hitler ever wrote was placed on the index even tho it was still in effect during the time of the Third Reich. This dosen't mean the church supported Hitler, but they NEVER opposed him either. Hitler was baptised a Catholic (tho he rarely went to mass) yet the church never excommunicated him The church has been known for excommunicating people for translating the bible into the vernacular. If they'd do that, why not excommunicate HITLER? Is bible translation worse than genocide?

 

I'm well aware of the reasons why xtians want Hitler to be remembered as an Athiest, but that dosen't change the words he himself spoke and wrote. I'm well aware of why the church would want to appear as if they were against Hitler from the begining, but the facts do not support that either. But I'm not claming that Hitler behaved in a manner that was "christ-like" or that he actually believed in xtianity, nor am I claiming a secert conspiracy between the Catholic church and the Nazi's. All I'm saying is that Hitler used xtian language in order to gain the trust of the people. I'm sure he reconized the raw power of blind belief, and used the xtians unending supply of it to his advantage.

 

Would his speeches have had the same effect if xtainity was not based on blind faith? I don't know. But you can't deny that the church made no effort to stop Hitler or distance themselves from the Nazi regime untill AFTER it was fully revealed the extent of the holocaust. You also cannot deny that anti-Semitism got its start in early xtianity, was preached in Germany by Martin Luther, and later Hitler. Xtianity plays a central role in anti-Semetism throughout history wether or not they are still actively promoting it.

 

PS, How do you edit posts on these boards? I was having trouble trying to edit this after I had posted it.

 

I haven't checked facts? What were those quotes from then? Did you not see the references I posted? Were those pics the Rev posted of priests saluting just done in photoshop? Do you have any photos of Buddhists saluting Hitler?

 

The Catholic church had something called the Index of Prohibited books. It was started in 1559 by Pope Paul IV and discontinued in 1966, that's right, 1966. Authors that were banned included Aristotle, Nicholas Copernicus, Galileo Galilei, Johannes Kepler, Thomas Paine, Rene Descartes, Edward Gibbon, Charles Dickens, and Charles Darwin, to name just a few. Nothing Hitler ever wrote was placed on the index even tho it was still in effect during the time of the Third Reich. This dosen't mean the church supported Hitler, but they NEVER opposed him either. Hitler was baptised a Catholic (tho he rarely went to mass) yet the church never excommunicated him The church has been known for excommunicating people for translating the bible into the vernacular. If they'd do that, why not excommunicate HITLER? Is bible translation worse than genocide?

 

I'm well aware of the reasons why xtians want Hitler to be remembered as an Athiest, but that dosen't change the words he himself spoke and wrote. I'm well aware of why the church would want to appear as if they were against Hitler from the begining, but the facts do not support that either. But I'm not claming that Hitler behaved in a manner that was "christ-like" or that he actually believed in xtianity, nor am I claiming a secert conspiracy between the Catholic church and the Nazi's. All I'm saying is that Hitler used xtian language in order to gain the trust of the people. I'm sure he reconized the raw power of blind belief, and used the xtians unending supply of it to his advantage.

 

Would his speeches have had the same effect if xtainity was not based on blind faith? I don't know. But you can't deny that the church made no effort to stop Hitler or distance themselves from the Nazi regime untill AFTER it was fully revealed the extent of the holocaust. You also cannot deny that anti-Semitism got its start in early xtianity, was preached in Germany by Martin Luther, and later Hitler. Xtianity plays a central role in anti-Semetism throughout history wether or not they are still actively promoting it.

 

PS, How do you edit posts on these boards? I was having trouble trying to edit this after I had posted it.

 

 

Marty and Rev Atheistar, if you are willing to believe whatever appeals to you without checking the facts you are still acting just like Christians.

 

I haven't checked facts? What were those quotes from then? Did you not see the references I posted? Were those pics the Rev posted of priests saluting just done in photoshop? Do you have any photos of Buddhists saluting Hitler?

 

The Catholic church had something called the Index of Prohibited books. It was started in 1559 by Pope Paul IV and discontinued in 1966, that's right, 1966. Authors that were banned included Aristotle, Nicholas Copernicus, Galileo Galilei, Johannes Kepler, Thomas Paine, Rene Descartes, Edward Gibbon, Charles Dickens, and Charles Darwin, to name just a few. Nothing Hitler ever wrote was placed on the index even tho it was still in effect during the time of the Third Reich. This dosen't mean the church supported Hitler, but they NEVER opposed him either. Hitler was baptised a Catholic (tho he rarely went to mass) yet the church never excommunicated him The church has been known for excommunicating people for translating the bible into the vernacular. If they'd do that, why not excommunicate HITLER? Is bible translation worse than genocide?

 

I'm well aware of the reasons why xtians want Hitler to be remembered as an Athiest, but that dosen't change the words he himself spoke and wrote. I'm well aware of why the church would want to appear as if they were against Hitler from the begining, but the facts do not support that either. But I'm not claming that Hitler behaved in a manner that was "christ-like" or that he actually believed in xtianity, nor am I claiming a secert conspiracy between the Catholic church and the Nazi's. All I'm saying is that Hitler used xtian language in order to gain the trust of the people. I'm sure he reconized the raw power of blind belief, and used the xtians unending supply of it to his advantage.

 

Would his speeches have had the same effect if xtainity was not based on blind faith? I don't know. But you can't deny that the church made no effort to stop Hitler or distance themselves from the Nazi regime untill AFTER it was fully revealed the extent of the holocaust. You also cannot deny that anti-Semitism got its start in early xtianity, was preached in Germany by Martin Luther, and later Hitler. Xtianity plays a central role in anti-Semetism throughout history wether or not they are still actively promoting it.

 

PS, How do you edit posts on these boards? I was having trouble trying to edit this after I had posted it.

 

I'm sorry everyone, I'm sick this morning and I tried to edit my post, and I got this repeating crap and I can't figure out how to shorten it. Are we not allowed to edit our posts here? I wanted to fix my comment on Joyous 1 not providing evidence on Buddhists. I kinda skipped right past that before I wrote my response.

 

Sorry!

[Toxic]

Quote:

I think you are right about the Mafia being Catholic, but not Hitler. The Catholic Church opposed Hitler,

 

Really? http://emperors-clothes.com/vatican/cpix.htm

[Reverend AtheiStar]

Marty and Rev Atheistar, if you are willing to believe whatever appeals to you without checking the facts you are still acting just like Christians. I for one had my fill of swallowing half truths while I was a Christian, I am no longer interested in doing that so now I seek the facts. If you want to cling to your falsehoods because they make you feel good, go ahead. On the other hand, if you would like to read a factual article on the subject of Hitler's "Christianity" written by an atheist, follow this link:

 

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html

 

Regarding the Church's actions during the Nazi rule of Germany, consider what Albert Einstien -- who was actually there at the time and NOT as a Christian-- had to say:

 

Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks... Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly.

 

Time magazine (23 December 1940) page 38.

 

If you want to learn more about Hitler and the Nazi's interest in Buddhism, you can read this factual article written by a practicing Buddhist that attempts to explain why Tibetan and Japanese Buddhists supported Hitler.

 

http://www.berzinarchives.com/kalachakra/n...hala_tibet.html

 

There was a thriving Buddhist community in Berlin during the war. To my knowledge not one Buddhist was ever killed in a concentration camp, and not one Jew was rescued by a Buddhist. If anyone can prove me wrong on that comment, I would love to see it.

 

It is precisely because of the facts that I believe as I do, not despite them. And as far as an Atheist representing the other side, so what? Atheists are far from infallible. All that unites us is the lack of belief in gods and goddesses. On everything else we can differ greatly.

 

Marty and Rev Atheistar, if you are willing to believe whatever appeals to you without checking the facts you are still acting just like Christians. I for one had my fill of swallowing half truths while I was a Christian, I am no longer interested in doing that so now I seek the facts. If you want to cling to your falsehoods because they make you feel good, go ahead. On the other hand, if you would like to read a factual article on the subject of Hitler's "Christianity" written by an atheist, follow this link:

 

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html

 

Regarding the Church's actions during the Nazi rule of Germany, consider what Albert Einstien -- who was actually there at the time and NOT as a Christian-- had to say:

 

Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks... Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly.

 

Time magazine (23 December 1940) page 38.

 

If you want to learn more about Hitler and the Nazi's interest in Buddhism, you can read this factual article written by a practicing Buddhist that attempts to explain why Tibetan and Japanese Buddhists supported Hitler.

 

http://www.berzinarchives.com/kalachakra/n...hala_tibet.html

 

There was a thriving Buddhist community in Berlin during the war. To my knowledge not one Buddhist was ever killed in a concentration camp, and not one Jew was rescued by a Buddhist. If anyone can prove me wrong on that comment, I would love to see it.

 

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-01-05.html

 

Did Einstein Praise the Church?

A statement attributed to Einstein

isn’t what it claims to be.

by William C. Waterhouse

 

In 2005 we celebrate the centennial of Einstein’s greatest work, not just relativity but also his analysis of Brownian motion and the quantum explanation of the photoelectric effect. So it seems like a good time to settle another question about him: Did he lavishly praise the Church for its opposition to Nazism?

 

There is a widely reproduced statement, attributed to Einstein, in which he enthusiastically praises the Church. As far as I have been able to find, the first appearance of this statement was in Time Magazine, December 23, 1940 (page 38).1 “The best tribute to the spirit of Germany’s Christians comes from a Jew and an agnostic (Time, Sept. 23) — the world’s most famous scientist, Albert Einstein,” the article says. Einstein is then quoted as saying:

 

Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks… Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly.

 

Time does not give any source or any indication that their reporter heard him say it. In January 1943, this exact same text was read aloud in a nationwide broadcast by Fulton J. Sheen (then a monsignor in the Catholic Church, later a bishop).2 Many copies of the same text can now be found in print and on the Internet.

 

Different writers, of course, have had different ideas of its meaning. Some (including Walter Niemöller) take it to refer to the “Confessing Church,” those German Protestant ministers who objected to Nazi supervision.3 Supporters of Pope Pius XII have used it to rebut attacks on his relation to the Holocaust, often modifying the language to say that Einstein specifically mentioned the Catholic Church.4 As early as 1943 one writer treated it as an anti-secular statement,5 and others, including the well-known theologian Thomas Torrance (former moderator of the Church of Scotland’s General Assembly), think it refers to Christianity in general.6

 

More strikingly, it seemed to me that there are serious reasons to doubt that Einstein ever said it. First, if (as the Catholics think) it refers to Pius XII, it would have to have been written after 1938. But the text certainly sounds as though it refers to a time shortly after the Nazis came to power.

 

Second, the language (“great editors,” “flaming editorials,” etc.) is much more flamboyant than Einstein’s usual style. Here, for comparison, is something he undoubtedly did write in 1933:

 

I hope that healthy conditions will soon supervene in Germany and that in future her great men like Kant and Goethe will not merely be commemorated from time to time but that the principles which they taught will also prevail in public life and in the general consciousness.7

 

As this shows, he (like most German Jews) hoped for support not from Christianity as such, but from the German Enlightenment tradition.

 

Third, it is hard to suppose that Einstein would deliberately publish a statement praising those who opposed “suppression of truth” without any mention of the vastly more important question of attacks on Jews.

 

And fourth, at least to another scientist like me, it seems unlikely that Einstein would have been guilty of saying that he had “despised” something immediately after saying that he “never had any special interest” in it.

 

Having a long-standing interest in verifying quotations, I turned to The Expanded Quotable Einstein,8 but it does not include this statement. So I wrote to its editor, Alice Calaprice. She was unsure about the statement but kindly referred me to Barbara Wolff at the Einstein Archives in Jerusalem. Ms. Wolff was able to answer my question: It turns out that the Einstein Archives contain an unpublished letter mentioning this topic specifically. Writing to Count Montgelas on March 28, 1947, Einstein explained that early in the Hitler years he had casually mentioned to some journalist that hardly any German intellectuals except a few churchmen were supporting individual rights and intellectual freedom. He added that this statement had subsequently been drastically exaggerated beyond anything that he could recognize as his own.9

 

As Ms. Wolf wrote to me, the supposed statement “is definitely better suited to serve the purpose of revealing how Einstein was (ab)used, than to present Einstein’s point of view.”10

 

References & Notes

Versions of such a statement were apparently circulating a bit earlier; see Mackay, J. A. 1939. “The Titanic Twofold Challenge,” New York Times Magazine, May 7, p. 3. But later citations seem to come from the Time article.

Ms. Barbara Wolff, of the Einstein Archives, has told me that they have a transcript of this talk.

Niemöller, W. 1948. Kampf und Zeugnis der bekennenden Kirche. Bielefeld, p. 526; Rieger, J. 1944. The Silent Church. London, p. 90.

Lapide, P. 1967. Three Popes and the Jews. New York, p. 251; Dalin, D. G. 2001. Weekly Standard, Feb. 26, p. 31.

Herbert, H. L. 1944. “The Great Secularist Experiment,” Hibbert Journal, 42-43, pp. 107-115.

Cochrane, A. C. 1962. The Church’s Confession under Hitler. Philadelphia, p. 40; Torrance, Thomas, 1998. “Einstein and God,” Reflections (Center of Theological Inquiry) 1, pp. 2-25. http: //www.ctinquiry.org/publications/reflections_volume_1/torrance.htm

Einstein, A. 1954. Ideas and Opinions. New York, p. 205.

Calaprice, A. (ed.). 2000. The Expanded Quotable Einstein. Princeton.

Unpublished letter, Einstein Archives, item number 58-548.

Email sent on 13 October, 2004.

[Antlerman]

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-01-05.html

 

Did Einstein Praise the Church?

A statement attributed to Einstein

isn’t what it claims to be.

by William C. Waterhouse

Great info. It does seem unlikely these were Einstein’s actual words. Fortunately this was all close enough back in history to piece together a better representation of how this came into being. Kind of reminds me of the Josephus quote, praising the magnanimous splendors of the Holy Christ, dare we call him a mere man!..., completely out of character to the historian himself. I keep getting this picture of a religious institution that finds nothing unethical in exploiting anything that seems to support it, regardless of its credibility. Sort of speaks to the soul of them, doesn't it? Supportable facts are of limited importance, propaganda that serves the greater truth, is therefore true.

[woodsmoke]

But of course. Deception is only evil when it doesn't have god's stamp on it. Everybody knows that.

 

[Reverend AtheiStar]

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-01-05.html

 

Did Einstein Praise the Church?

A statement attributed to Einstein

isn’t what it claims to be.

by William C. Waterhouse

Great info. It does seem unlikely these were Einstein’s actual words. Fortunately this was all close enough back in history to piece together a better representation of how this came into being. Kind of reminds me of the Josephus quote, praising the magnanimous splendors of the Holy Christ, dare we call him a mere man!..., completely out of character to the historian himself. I keep getting this picture of a religious institution that finds nothing unethical in exploiting anything that seems to support it, regardless of its credibility. Sort of speaks to the soul of them, doesn't it? Supportable facts are of limited importance, propaganda that serves the greater truth, is therefore true.

 

Thanks. Yeah, it's pretty obvious that what Einstein actually said is pretty far removed from what Joyous1 posted. She was just passing the lie down the line, though. Christianity has a long history of exaggeration and outright forgery. It's no surprise they would do this. It's actually precisely what I would expect. It's just another example of a Liar for Christ™.

[Reverend AtheiStar]

What a moron. I don't trust people who believe there needs to be a higher power to keep their actions in line. Methinks they are projecting.

 

To me, Hitler was acting very godly. He ordered the deaths of millions of people in death camps. God killed all of the world's population, except for small sample, by drowning them. Hitler loved to torture his victims by burning them alive in ovens. God invented Hell and a ton of easily breakable rules so people could be tortured forever. Hitler was just trying to be like his SkyDaddy™.

[ped]

What a moron. I don't trust people who believe there needs to be a higher power to keep their actions in line. Methinks they are projecting.

 

To me, Hitler was acting very godly. He ordered the deaths of millions of people in death camps. God killed all of the world's population, except for small sample, by drowning them. Hitler loved to torture his victims by burning them alive in ovens. God invented Hell and a ton of easily breakable rules so people could be tortured forever. Hitler was just trying to be like his SkyDaddy.

 

 

damn! ive never thought of that. that would make a great bumber sticker. "hitler was the most godlike man ive ever heard of" or something to the extent.