Tyson Posted May 27, 2006 Share Posted May 27, 2006 Christians and those influenced by its teachings that the being we now refer to as Satan was once some beautiful angel in heaven by the name of Lucifer. Lucifer supposedly used his "free will" to rebel against biblegod and sought to usurp him which resulted in him being kicked out of heaven down to earth, a moment which saw him transformed into Satan or "the devil" and hence, the whole earth was destined for trouble. Now if that is the case (as they say), who is to say that in the so-called new heaven(s) and new earth that someone will not use their free will to repeat the same offense? How are we assured that such a thing cannot happen again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted May 27, 2006 Share Posted May 27, 2006 I have thought about the same thing. If this (imaginary) Heaven supposedly keep the free will. Then a soul in there could decide to rebel against God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Faery Posted May 27, 2006 Share Posted May 27, 2006 Well xians think that for some reason we won't want to rebel once we get to Heaven, that being with God will be so wonderful and so forth. They apply this same kind of reasoning to hell. People may be xians, but might have family members and friends whom aren't and they somehow think that in the afterlife it won't matter that their loved ones who reject xianity are in hell. That somehow everything in the afterlife will be made clear and its that whole "looking through the glass darkly" (i know there's a verse in the bible but I forgot as I don't own a copy of the bible anymore). That we see through limited perspectives now but it'll all be made clear when we're dead and in heaven with God and stuff. I asked this question at a xian forums a long time ago, as well as read some of their apologetic books. Its not hard to understand their thinking, but xians are naive in that, nothing is guaranteed. Was paradise with Adam and Eve guaranteed? From their myth, it didn't seem to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted May 27, 2006 Share Posted May 27, 2006 Sorry guys... In heaven there IS free will. But there is no 'sin nature'. In 'Heaven', we aren't creations of God, we are part of God. Yes, I said part of God. Not 'a' part of God. (yawn...) Where are all of these kind of questions/statements in my "I'll play the fundie" thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted May 27, 2006 Share Posted May 27, 2006 Well xians think that for some reason we won't want to rebel once we get to Heaven, that being with God will be so wonderful and so forth. And then a question arises... wasn't heaven so wonderful when Satan rebelled? Or is it that God gave him "more" free will than he gave us? They apply this same kind of reasoning to hell. People may be xians, but might have family members and friends whom aren't and they somehow think that in the afterlife it won't matter that their loved ones who reject xianity are in hell. The problem I see with that is the only way to still be "full of eternal love" and still not care for them, the "heaven people" have to forget about the "hell people". Hence, they have to be lied to by God. He has to claim Hell doesn't exist, and he has to remove the memory from their brains... and funny it is, that the brain stays in this world... If we have a free will now, and in heaven, then the free will has to be attributed to the soul. This soul wouldn't change when we die. So if I have a will of thinking freely and wonder about things or doubting, then I'd still do it in heaven (or hell). I asked this question at a xian forums a long time ago, as well as read some of their apologetic books. Its not hard to understand their thinking, but xians are naive in that, nothing is guaranteed. Was paradise with Adam and Eve guaranteed? From their myth, it didn't seem to. Right. If all was good in Eden, and still A&E managed to sin, why would there be any certainty about heaven being "good" also? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted May 27, 2006 Share Posted May 27, 2006 UMmmnnn.... Full of eternal love means that you'll understand; not that you'll forget. The Bible is quite clear that the smoke (from Hell) will rise up forever (The Book of Revelation...towards the end of the book). Now, was Heaven so wonderful when Satan rebelled? Not for Satan. When we die, don't you believe that our souls die with us? Yes, thank God. I don't want my soul anymore with it's hangups and synapses that misfire and it's selfish b*llsh*t. Let that 'soul' be buried with me. My spirit will live forever. And that's a whole different animal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saxyroze Posted May 28, 2006 Share Posted May 28, 2006 Now if that is the case (as they say), who is to say that in the so-called new heaven(s) and new earth that someone will not use their free will to repeat the same offense? How are we assured that such a thing cannot happen again? Maybe god will kick the rebellious soul down to hell to join satan’s crowd. Or maybe the rebellious soul will just be put in the corner for timeout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted May 28, 2006 Share Posted May 28, 2006 Full of eternal love means that you'll understand; not that you'll forget. Think about how it would be to be in Heaven, and at the same time you know that someone that you loved a lot is in Hell, only because of lack of faith. Now, was Heaven so wonderful when Satan rebelled? Not for Satan. Was it wonderful before he rebelled? When we die, don't you believe that our souls die with us? I don't believe we have a soul at all. My spirit will live forever. And that's a whole different animal. What's a spirit? In the OT spirit and soul was used interchangeable. No diff. Soul = Spirit. The concept of Soul <> Sprit <> Body is a later invention. Think it's from 19th century theologians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 Han, I just posted in another of your threads that I actually agree with you, but I was playing Jesus' Advocate. Same here. Sometimes I just love to argue, and act the Fundie. As long as everyone knows that I'm acting, no harm done (I hope). I do go on sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 I just posted in another of your threads that I actually agree with you, but I was playing Jesus' Advocate. Same here. Sometimes I just love to argue, and act the Fundie. As long as everyone knows that I'm acting, no harm done (I hope). I do go on sometimes. Damn it! I did wondered what happened to you, if had gone into some "return to the fundy" craze or something. It didn't make sense, and you didn't put any hints in there, so I felt compelled by my "evil atheist spirit" to reply back to you. Sorry if I came out harsh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepblue Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 If there was only God to start with (well, from eternity according to Christian belief), how did evil arise? How did Satan get that evil thought? Where did it come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted June 4, 2006 Share Posted June 4, 2006 Han, thanks for wondering. I'd like to think that you thought I returned to fundyism because my logic is so good. Really, I'd bet that it's because my arguments sounded more and more indefensible and silly, the more I stuck to the Bible. Franknhonest... My first 'Jesus' advocate' response would be that God admits in the Old Testament that He created evil, so why do you act so suprised, and then leave the ball in your court. Or I'd say that Satan was created to be the adversary, and what part of that don't you understand? Satan didn't have to rebel against God. God put the thought there in his 'head', but Satan didn't have to (as the highest created being ever until Man, he had no reason to) act on it. So maybe Satan was just doing his job by being an adversary. Of course, then the argument goes that why then does God blame us for evil? and I would go to Paul in Romans and point out that it isn't our business to blame the Creator for making us thus, then etc and etc. The way the Bible is written, I can see where fundies (like I used to be) come from. What I don't understand is how liberal Christian get their logic. The Bible is very clear and says what it says in no uncertain terms if you take it verse be verse. It makes no sense at all if you see it as one big book that's all supposed to make sense as one big unit. I guess maybe they pick and choose too, just like the fundies. So if it were possible to rebel in Heaven, then you wouldn't be there in the first place. Our job is not to be an adversary, our job is to love and obey God. And God knows them who really love and serve Him. Or I'd point out that some people, after living on a perfect Earth and serving God for a thousand years with no sin, no wars, no sicknesses, etc, still rebel against God and His Lamb (in the book of Revelation), and are thrown into the 'lake of fire' along with death and Hell. It could happen in Heaven (and it has), so why the question on your part? Man, according to the Bible, won't live in Heaven anyway, but right here on Earth in the New Jerusalem. It could go on and on and on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 4, 2006 Share Posted June 4, 2006 Here's a religious/fundy thinking idea to explain it freewill, evil and sin. God created the angels, and gave them free will. Satan rebelled. Then God created humans, give thim concept of sin, etc etc. but only the ones that obey God with their own will, will go to heaven. Explanation is that he made a mistake with Satan, and he only wants who willingly obey him to be in heaven. So he would be okay to lose 99% of humanity, as long as he gets a little group of obedient slaves! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted June 4, 2006 Share Posted June 4, 2006 Han... Let it go. LET IT GO!! God doesn't make mistakes, as they say. Satan was made to be the adversary; humans were not. And angels never ever ever had or have free will. Humans were not created with the concept of sin. They took it upon themselves. Of their own free will. You've read the book, right? See what you made me do?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurari Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 And angels never ever ever had or have free will. That was the version I heard. That God made the angels and then created Man and only gave Man freewill. And then God told the angels, "You will serve Mankind." Lucifer said "No, I will not serve Mankind because we were your first creations." (or something to that effect) so God cast him out because that wasn't Lucifer's choice to make. Another theory I heard at a more Unitarian type of organization was that Satan was never actually evil or thrown out of Heaven. God asked for a volunteer for one to be the "Angel of Temptation" so man would know the difference of right and wrong. Lucifer was the volunteer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 Han... Dude, I'm turning you into a full-hard-core-fundamentalist! Another theory I heard at a more Unitarian type of organization was that Satan was never actually evil or thrown out of Heaven. God asked for a volunteer for one to be the "Angel of Temptation" so man would know the difference of right and wrong. Lucifer was the volunteer. Doesn't volunteer imply a choice, and a will (free will)? Angels supposedly have free will according to the Bible. Dude(wrong)omy, read the book, again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 Han, you do bring out the worst in me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 Han... In your last post, you seem to have me and Kurari mixed up. I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuaiDan Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 Isn't the whole Lucifer rebellion thing not from the bible, but instead from Milton's Paradise Lost? If it were the official JudeoChristian version, wouldn't it be at odds with with the Adam Eve original sin story in genesis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 Isn't the whole Lucifer rebellion thing not from the bible, but instead from Milton's Paradise Lost? If it were the official JudeoChristian version, wouldn't it be at odds with with the Adam Eve original sin story in genesis? Are you saying it's a myth? mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 In your last post, you seem to have me and Kurari mixed up. Ooops. Multithreaded thoughts... Isn't the whole Lucifer rebellion thing not from the bible, but instead from Milton's Paradise Lost? If it were the official JudeoChristian version, wouldn't it be at odds with with the Adam Eve original sin story in genesis? I think it's from Isaiah 14:13 You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. 14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." , and Paradise Lost is losely based on this traditional idea of Satan as the fallen morning star (which is a name for Jesus also). Isa 14:12 How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! - Reference to Satan Re 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star." - And that's Jesus So who is the Morning Star? Jesus or Satan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosingMyReligion Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 I wonder why god would create the concepts of rebellion and discord? I mean if he wants perfect fellowship with his "children(whom he will cast into an inferno without a second glance)" why not make them into droids, that can be programmed... Well, fundies pretty much answer my question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts