What Exactly Is The Unpardonable Sin?

[EdwardAbbey]

According to Christianity to deny the existence of the Holy Spirit is considered blasphemy or better known as: “The Unpardonable Sin” But wouldn’t that be a contradiction? And since there is no evidence for the existence of a Holy Spirit, wouldn’t that be a victimless crime? I thought God and Jesus forgives all sins no matter what the sin?

 

It almost sounds like a horror movie of sorts bordering on threats and coercion to not submit to such beliefs. As far as I’m concerned, I longer have any fears of such threats.

 

Christianity is just that, a threat that if you don’t believe you will be damned to the dark regions of a place of fire, smoke and never ending torment and torture with no sign of relief whatsoever.

 

Since I am an atheist I have no other choice but to deny the existence of some imaginary spirit that is claimed by Christians as Holy.

 

Actually, I deny any kind of spirit.

 

They are all motivated from fear and superstition.

[Guest JP]

I first heard about the unforgivable sin from a Christian who tried to save me, but ended up doing more damage to mentally because of the unforgivable sin. Basically, I told him I had a voice in my head that said bad things (that wasn't really a voice at all; it was OCD.) But for some reason, he decided to tell me that I should never commit the unpardonable sin, which was to say that "God and Satan are one." Those were his words. In his definition, it is when you say that God does his work through Satan that you commit the sin. Yeah, that screwed me up royally for years (still kinda does.) Anyway...

 

Now, the mainstream belief is that when you commit the sin, it is when you have such Hardness of Heart that you can't be drawn to be saved. Therefore, when someone is worried that they've committed the sin, the worry is proof that they haven't done it because if they had they wouldn't be concerned about it.

 

Fundamentalists like the literal view that if you accuse Jesus of working for Satan, as the Pharisees did, you are committing the unforgivable sin. Some churches teach that even saying something bad about the HS is akin to blasphemy.

[EdwardAbbey]

Some churches teach that even saying something bad about the HS is akin to blasphemy.

 

The only thing that makes it a sin and blasphemy is belief that such a thing exists. For me it is nothing more than a myth, making it a victimless crime.

 

It's not a matter of hardening of ones heart against such a belief. It's a matter of reason and rational thought that such a thing is only based on superstition.

[Amanda]

Edward Abbey... I think that 'Christian Fundamentalism' has a tendency to do unbelievable damage. I'm leaning towards the tendency to call it a 'disorder'. *sigh* Because of this, I am somewhat reluctant to share my views of what I think are close to the original message of the initial Christian movement, which IMO is polarized in the opposite direction from present day beliefs. I would like to preface my response to your post with, I have NO intentions of supporting present 'Christian' beliefs. This site is so wonderful for breaking people out of that mindset, and it is my intentions to support that position. IMHO, the original character of Jesus would be considered to be more Buddhist than anything.

 

According to Christianity to deny the existence of the Holy Spirit is considered blasphemy or better known as: “The Unpardonable Sin” But wouldn’t that be a contradiction? And since there is no evidence for the existence of a Holy Spirit, wouldn’t that be a victimless crime?

Do you believe in a 'patriotic spirit'? Perhaps there is a 'spirit' of what we individually come to hold as sacred (holy), a 'spirit' of selflessness, of letting go of ego, as holding ALL fellow mankind as 'equal' to ourself, ALL are ONE.

 

I believe the Bible says the unpardonable sin is blasphemy (condemnation) of the 'Holy Spirit'. If we perpetuate a belief defrauding that 'equality of all mankind, and respect for ALL life' concept, should that be pardonable? Not that anyone is going to a literal hell! I think the war between heaven/nirvana and hell is within us. If we believe that ALL people are not equal... how can we not have within our mind torment, rather we're aware of it or not?

 

I thought God and Jesus forgives all sins no matter what the sin?

Yes... the forgiveness of sin is within us, that is where God is, IMO. Perhaps there is this 'spirit' of Jesus through these 'sacred' concepts now attributed to that character. (There is the 'spirit' of Martin Luther King, Mother Tereasa, Madeline O'Hare, etc.) It seems this 'spirit' of concepts attributed to the character of Jesus, is about reaching a state of nirvana/peace, love, and joy, and being 'saved' from torment/anguish/fear, all internal states. It's just if you are doing anything opposed to achieving this nirvana state, you lose it by default.

 

It almost sounds like a horror movie of sorts bordering on threats and coercion to not submit to such beliefs. As far as I’m concerned, I longer have any fears of such threats.

 

Christianity is just that, a threat that if you don’t believe you will be damned to the dark regions of a place of fire, smoke and never ending torment and torture with no sign of relief whatsoever.

I know... it's pathetic. *sigh* This is what I think causes this 'mindset' to perhaps be in a region of being recognized as a disorder. Do you know how many people this concept causes to be intolerant, to consider themselves elitist above the rest of humanity, and limits their own ability and that of their family to enjoy LIFE?

 

I first heard about the unforgivable sin from a Christian who tried to save me, but ended up doing more damage to mentally because of the unforgivable sin. Basically, I told him I had a voice in my head that said bad things (that wasn't really a voice at all; it was OCD.) But for some reason, he decided to tell me that I should never commit the unpardonable sin, which was to say that "God and Satan are one." Those were his words. In his definition, it is when you say that God does his work through Satan that you commit the sin. Yeah, that screwed me up royally for years (still kinda does.) Anyway...

 

JP, seems you might have given yourself more credit at the time, than you did. Sounds like you were in a better place to help him, than vice versa. Until you feel secure in what a wonderful person you are right now... it might be really good to stay away from such 'condescending' advice. That's almost a sure sign of them having more significant problems than you. :wink:

 

Now, the mainstream belief is that when you commit the sin, it is when you have such Hardness of Heart that you can't be drawn to be saved.

It seems to me that ANYONE who thinks they are in an exclusive (not inclusive) 'club' and does not believe that EVERYONE will be 'saved' has 'Hardness of Heart'....

[RationalThought]

I unintentionally discovered how to tie a Christian in knots. I explained to them how the Holy Spirit led me to the position that the Bible was false.

 

 

RationalThought

[Amanda]

I unintentionally discovered how to tie a Christian in knots. I explained to them how the Holy Spirit led me to the position that the Bible was false.

 

 

RationalThought

 

 

C'mon... even they have to laugh at that!

 

Good one!

 

 

It could happen though...

[RationalThought]

 

C'mon... even they have to laugh at that!

 

Good one!

 

 

It could happen though...

Actually, it is what did happen to me.

 

Not that the Bible is false in its entirety, just that the Bible is not the sole, unique, perfect record of God's message and interaction with man, which may as well be revealing it as false as far as most Christians are concerned.

 

 

RationalThought

[Amanda]

 

C'mon... even they have to laugh at that!

 

Good one!

 

 

It could happen though...

Actually, it is what did happen to me.

 

Not that the Bible is false in its entirety, just that the Bible is not the sole, unique, perfect record of God's message and interaction with man, which may as well be revealing it as false as far as most Christians are concerned.

 

 

RationalThought

 

Rational Thought... welcome to these forums! I see you've been here awhile, yet have not posted too many times. I hope to see you around!

 

And yes... referring to your last post here, the current Bible has sure changed, IMO, over these many, many, many years. It probably wouldn't even be recognized at all by its original authors.

[EdwardAbbey]

 

I think that 'Christian Fundamentalism' has a tendency to do unbelievable damage. I'm leaning towards the tendency to call it a 'disorder'. *sigh* Because of this, I am somewhat reluctant to share my views of what I think are close to the original message of the initial Christian movement, which IMO is polarized in the opposite direction from present day beliefs. I would like to preface my response to your post with, I have NO intentions of supporting present 'Christian' beliefs. This site is so wonderful for breaking people out of that mindset, and it is my intentions to support that position. IMHO, the original character of Jesus would be considered to be more Buddhist than anything

 

Are you a fundamentalist Christian or are you a moderate Christian?

 

Do you believe in a 'patriotic spirit'?

 

Of course I do. But I do not treat it like it is a literal/invisible person as Christianity teaches about the HS. The patriotic spirit as you are referring is just a figure of speech. The spirit of joy, love and compassion can also be used as just figures of speech as well. big difference than what Xtaianity teaches or asserts.

 

Perhaps there is a 'spirit' of what we individually come to hold as sacred (holy), a 'spirit' of selflessness, of letting go of ego, as holding ALL fellow mankind as 'equal' to ourself, ALL are ONE.

Just more figures of speech. Which is fine if that’s all they are treated as. But I’m not sure I would agree that all humans are equal. We are all equal in the human sense if that’s what you mean.

 

I believe the Bible says the unpardonable sin is blasphemy (condemnation) of the 'Holy Spirit'

when it comes to such things as taught in the bible where there is no evidence for it’s existence, how can I be guilty of blasphemy when it is a victimless crime? In other words since such a thing doesn’t even exist, blasphemy is even a myth in such cases. You can’t blaspheme something that’s not even there.

 

If we perpetuate a belief defrauding that 'equality of all mankind, and respect for ALL life' concept, should that be pardonable?

 

I’m not really sure I understand your question. I have respect for my fellow human being if that is what you’re asking.

 

Yes... the forgiveness of sin is within us, that is where God is, IMO

First of all sin is a religious concept and I don’t see any evidence that such a thing even exists. But yes, forgiveness towards others is a very basic human attribute that most of us have.

[Asimov]

Kicking another man in the balls. That's pretty freakin unpardonable.

[Ouroboros]

Or taking his beer without permission. That's frakking unpardonable too.

[Amanda]

Are you a fundamentalist Christian or are you a moderate Christian?

Edward Abbey, I think I'm with Ghandi on this one. I think highly of the character of Christ, but I don't like our 'Christians' much. However, if I judge them condescendingly, would I be any different than they are?

 

And in regards to asking you if you believed in a 'patriotic' spirit...

 

Of course I do. But I do not treat it like it is a literal/invisible person as Christianity teaches about the HS. The patriotic spirit as you are referring is just a figure of speech. The spirit of joy, love and compassion can also be used as just figures of speech as well. big difference than what Xtaianity teaches or asserts.

Ok, I guess we agree more than we disagree here.

 

But I’m not sure I would agree that all humans are equal. We are all equal in the human sense if that’s what you mean.

Hmmmm.... Do you think anyone is better or less than anyone else? I don't think so...

I think we are in agreement here too.

 

I believe the Bible says the unpardonable sin is blasphemy (condemnation) of the 'Holy Spirit'

when it comes to such things as taught in the bible where there is no evidence for it’s existence, how can I be guilty of blasphemy when it is a victimless crime? In other words since such a thing doesn’t even exist, blasphemy is even a myth in such cases. You can’t blaspheme something that’s not even there.

Is it possible to condemn a patriotic spirit? Is it possible to condemn the spirit of Nelson Mandella, Mother Tereasa, or Ghandi?

 

Yes... the forgiveness of sin is within us, that is where God is, IMO

First of all sin is a religious concept and I don’t see any evidence that such a thing even exists. But yes, forgiveness towards others is a very basic human attribute that most of us have.

My apologies. I should have used a different word. Forgiveness of someone missing the target we expected from them, of forgiving someone for an offense done to us or someone else, or heck... just forgiving ourself (which tends to be the hardest one for us to forgive)... which is done by the 'God' nature inside of us, IMO. I think we agree here too, just perhaps different articulation.

 

 

Kicking another man in the balls. That's pretty freakin unpardonable.

 

 

Asimov, apologies... I guess that isn't so funny to a guy. Ouch! Sorry.

 

However, we can forgive someone without condoning or excusing the behavior. We can forgive someone AND still hold them responsible and accountable for their actions. Forgiveness is for the benefit of 'self', NOT for the perpetrator.

 

Or taking his beer without permission. That's frakking unpardonable too.

 

AAAhhhhh... beer he can have. Martinis we may have to fight over!

[EdwardAbbey]

I think I'm with Ghandi on this one. I think highly of the character of Christ, but I don't like our 'Christians' much. However, if I judge them condescendingly, would I be any different than they are?

 

Why do you think highly of the character of Christ? I don’t think I’d want him for my next door neighbor to be honest. I think I’d rather have Ghandi instead. At least he didn’t threaten to send people to hell for not following him or teaching that you had to hate your entire family in order to be a member of his religious club.

 

Do you think anyone is better or less than anyone else? I don't think so...

I think we are in agreement here too

No not really but then again, what do you mean by someone being better or worse than someone else? Better at having certain abilities/talents perhaps?

 

Is it possible to condemn a patriotic spirit? Is it possible to condemn the spirit of Nelson Mandella, Mother Tereasa, or Ghandi?

I’m really not sure what you are asking me to be honest once again. As for the patriotic thing. I think it can be carried to extremes sometimes depending on what the issue is at the moment. There are those who have the misconception that atheists aren’t patriotic because they do not believe in God etc if you know what I mean.

 

My apologies. I should have used a different word. Forgiveness of someone missing the target we expected from them, of forgiving someone for an offense done to us or someone else, or heck... just forgiving ourself (which tends to be the hardest one for us to forgive)... which is done by the 'God' nature inside of us, IMO. I think we agree here too, just perhaps different articulation

I don’t believe there is anything inside of us that is God natured. We are all humans and all we have is human nature. I don’t see any evidence for a god inside or outside of our natures. I think many use the God concept when there isn’t any explanation for anything so they call it God.

[Amanda]

Why do you think highly of the character of Christ? I don’t think I’d want him for my next door neighbor to be honest. I think I’d rather have Ghandi instead. At least he didn’t threaten to send people to hell for not following him or teaching that you had to hate your entire family in order to be a member of his religious club.

Edward Abbey, I understand your sentiments entirely! That's why I wrote this fairly in depth preface to my initial response to this thread. IMO, Ghandi and Jesus have the same teachings. The Bible just got run through the muck, used, abused, edited, slaughtered, and its present interpretation is just as you suggest. It seems it has done much worse than the St. Nicholas to Santa Claus evolution.

 

Anyway, I like Ghandi, Yogananda, Buddha, Madeline O'Hare, and many more just as well.

Do you think anyone is better or less than anyone else? I don't think so...

I think we are in agreement here too

No not really but then again, what do you mean by someone being better or worse than someone else? Better at having certain abilities/talents perhaps?

Even if someone has certain talents that seem more sophisticated than someone else's... does that make them a better person than another person? Is arrogance ever justified? Does anyone ever really have the right to speak to others in a condescending manner, to be presumptuous that they are a better person in the world? This is especially addressed to people that are of different ethnic groups, physical and mental conditions, etc... Of course, the world of supply and demand calls for some to get paid more for their services than others, or to be seeked out and preferred for their insights on certain subjects, but does this mean they are better than anyone else?

Is it possible to condemn a patriotic spirit? Is it possible to condemn the spirit of Nelson Mandella, Mother Tereasa, or Ghandi?

I’m really not sure what you are asking me to be honest once again. As for the patriotic thing. I think it can be carried to extremes sometimes depending on what the issue is at the moment. There are those who have the misconception that atheists aren’t patriotic because they do not believe in God etc if you know what I mean.

I have no problems with Atheist! I'm so glad we have Atheist! I think they make extremely great contributions to society. I really like Madeline O'Hare, as to what I have read and seen on documentary type videos of her. However, you do seem to suggest it is POSSIBLE to condemn one's spirit of patriotism, spirit of Madeline O'Hare (was done terribly to her spirit ), and I think we can agree that the spirit of Nelson Mandela was once quite popularly condemned. So a spirit of what a concept holds as sacred can also be POSSIBLE to be condemned... I think we agree here.

 

I don’t believe there is anything inside of us that is God natured. We are all humans and all we have is human nature. I don’t see any evidence for a god inside or outside of our natures. I think many use the God concept when there isn’t any explanation for anything so they call it God.

Edward Abbey... I apologize, as I didn't realize that you seem to have such sensitive 'buttons' that can be pushed. I am NOT speaking of anything, such as 'God' that can be defined in the traditional sense of a Christian perspective. Gosh, I assumed that you were so well recovered from that brainwashing function of Christian fundamentalism that you would avoid constant gaurd to anything that you perceive may be a sliding ride back into the nightmare of Christian fundamentalism. I can respect that, and try to do so on this site. It just makes it easier for me to use some words in a manner that seems to relieve me of such a detailed response.

 

Are you familiar with a famous, secular psychologist, Abraham Maslow, that came up with a model called Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs? The highest level, the 5th one, is known as Self Actualization. It is said that everyone is directed into this level as their lower levels are achieved to a certain degree. This highest state brings us into an altruistic, selfless, benevolent state, that truly fulfills the individuals' desires of being of value to society. That is what I mean by the 'God' nature within us. What else could I call it? Nomenclature is not worth debating, IMO.

[deepblue]

I committed the unpardonable sin. It is a breakdown of conscience, leaving a void inside. If you've lost your conscience, I guess the "spirit" part of you has gone. You can't really feel anymore, because there's nothing inside to feel with. It's like the ground splitting apart leaving an infinitely deep chasm.

 

My experience is described at www.totalblasphemy.com.

 

Everything has changed, even physical things.

 

It sounds crazy but it really happened. I've "aged inside" way before my time.

[Brother Jeff]

And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spook will not be forgiven. (Matthew 12:32)

 

You can blaspheme the Magic Sky Man and blaspheme the Holy Farter and it can be forgiven, but speak against the Spook, and you're screwed!

 

Christians usually teach that rejecting Kryasst as your Lard and Slaver amounts to blasphemy of the Holy Spook because in doing so you are rejecting Gawd and His Magical Love Gift.

[Ouroboros]

That's how I learned what was the Unforgivbubble Sinus infection when i was Christian.

 

What I couldn't get though was that, The Holy Sprocket is God, and God is the Holy Sprocket, so in essence whatever you said against God, Jebus, Farter, it all would be unforgiveblaba too. That part didn't make sense. Why only the God's Holy Wind? Was he so ashamed of his inability to hold it, that he refused to forgive someone making fun of his cutting the cheese?

[Amanda]

 

 

Franknhonest, interesting site at the anti-church forum. Wow, that all makes sense too. If we do not identify with our own problems, how can we identify with someone else's? If we can't identify with others in a compassionate way, how can we have a conscience?

 

Was the secret, to go back and face all your own problems, feel the pain, learn coping skills to resolve those issues, then one can learn to have compassion for others, therefore gaining a conscience back?

 

Thanks for your insights!

 

HanSolo and Brother Jeff, is the "Holy Farter" and the "Holy Wind" what ran you two off? I can just see you two running out of church, holding your noses!

[deepblue]

Cheers Amanda.

 

I have no conscience left. Only the broken remnants. It's hard to describe.

 

The site is starting to pick up a bit. Two posts yesterday after weeks without.

[Ouroboros]

HanSolo and Brother Jeff, is the "Holy Farter" and the "Holy Wind" what ran you two off? I can just see you two running out of church, holding your noses!

Mabye... that's secret....But I can tell you this special power explains why people fall "under the influence or by the power of the holy wind."

 

(God likes beans, what can I say.)

[Lycorth]

Basically, denying the Holy Spurt™ is the unpardonable sin. I never understood why, even when all the explanations about it equating a rejection of the Lard's™ forgiveness. Why is blasphemy against the Heavenly Farter™ who made the world not unforgiveable? Why is blasphemy against Jeezus, the Scum of Gawd™, not unforgiveable? Why is just denying the Holy Spurt™ the ultimate sin?

 

Heaven forbid we deny the stickiness of the spunk of the Lard™, the same magic splooge which knocked up Mary and gave us Jeezus™ to begin with